International peak draft

Chesterlestreet

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Re: The Schuster debate and now the Djalma business.

Just a general remark: As a neutral it's not easy to properly assess a player who is - to put it like that - artificially sub-par to some extent or other.

An underwhelming Messi is hard enough to consider as part of a fantasy XI, but there you at least have actual performances to go by.

But '58 Djalma? He's eligible. He played well in the one match he featured in - well enough to make the all-star team. It's basically Djalma as you'd normally consider him - but taken down a notch or two artificially. How many notches? And how will he actually «perform» in the fantasy match? Is he a sheep? A generic right back (whatever that means). You have to dream up a player who never existed, it seems.

See, giving «points» to individual players for their tournament performance is possible, even quite easy: He was in top form, played X matches, opposition valued at level Y - we'll give him seven points out of ten. No problem.

But you can't field such an abstraction in a match. How does a sub-standard '58 Djalma (a player who doesn't exist) differ from the actual '58 Djalma?
 

Annahnomoss

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Re: The Schuster debate and now the Djalma business.

Just a general remark: As a neutral it's not easy to properly assess a player who is - to put it like that - artificially sub-par to some extent or other.

An underwhelming Messi is hard enough to consider as part of a fantasy XI, but there you at least have actual performances to go by.

But '58 Djalma? He's eligible. He played well in the one match he featured in - well enough to make the all-star team. It's basically Djalma as you'd normally consider him - but taken down a notch or two artificially. How many notches? And how will he actually «perform» in the fantasy match? Is he a sheep? A generic right back (whatever that means). You have to dream up a player who never existed, it seems.

See, giving «points» to individual players for their tournament performance is possible, even quite easy: He was in top form, played X matches, opposition valued at level Y - we'll give him seven points out of ten. No problem.

But you can't field such an abstraction in a match. How does a sub-standard '58 Djalma (a player who doesn't exist) differ from the actual '58 Djalma?
It is an abstract thing of course and up to everybody to decide how they take it like in the WC&Euro drafts. It worked well there and you can't put numbers on it. We're looking for the greatest performers from these tournaments who had the biggest impact on their teams success. So a Djalma who played one game should be rated as a worse player, or as a deceitful pick(not in Mazhars case), and deserves some critique. The same abstract idea applies to players who had world class performances way above their level.

They didn't suddenly possess more skills for two weeks which they then lost for the rest of their lives. But we still have to give them as much credit as they deserve for it to be a good draft. Djalma '58 shouldn't be in the draft and he wouldn't be either if it wasn't for Mazhars mistake.
 

Gio

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I think the principle is a sound one that players who appear in more games have a greater chance of getting a good reception in the match threads. Trying to quantify it is difficult though. Had Djalma not played in 1954 or 1962 then it would have been a clear case of Mazhar pulling a fast one, rather than an oversight on their part (which I'm pretty relaxed about - it's an admin error rather than a 'spirit of the draft' fast one).
 
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Chesterlestreet

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It worked well there and you can't put numbers on it.
No, you can't - but what you refer to there is, as I take it, players who under- or over-performed compared to their normal level. That's different. It too will lead to endless debates, but it's based on actual performances.

From what you say about Djalma it seems to me that he simply shouldn't have been eligible to begin with. I get the «prepare for criticism» part - certainly - rather than going for hard rules. But these players still appear on the team sheet - you have to try and picture how they would acquit themselves in an XI with other players. And in Djalma's case you have to do that with no basis in actual performances, which is tricky (obviously).

I just don't think the format we normally use is well suited to that sort of player/performance assessment. Like I said above, you can rate tournament performances on a scale, that's fairly easy. But judging a player as part of a fantasy team is another kettle altogether. You need actual performances for that - if not it becomes absurd, at least for me.

But no matter - the Djalmas are obviously exceptions.

I have some thoughts about the peak business - and judging players based on single competitions - in general, but they don't belong here. For the «next draft» thread, perhaps.

Anyway, carry on - I won't bang on about this any further. It's been a fun draft to follow, actually, and a slightly different spin than what I had imagined.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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It is an abstract thing of course and up to everybody to decide how they take it like in the WC&Euro drafts.
I think your OP clarifies this perfectly. The below quoted piece should be the primary guidance.

Their peak will be rated solely on what they did in that specific tournament. There is no rules on exactly how many matches the player has to have played, but obviously the more the merrier and the primary goal is impact to the teams performance overall in the tournament.
That Pele'58 example you mention probably causes the confusion and leads to bringing the stats into the rule. I'd suggest you consider deleting that example and just letting the above guidance remain.
 

Joga Bonito

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If anyone else is online and can start matches and polls, can you guys step in if possible? Seems like Annah and green_smiley are away.
 

Annahnomoss

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I have some thoughts about the peak business - and judging players based on single competitions - in general, but they don't belong here. For the «next draft» thread, perhaps.

Anyway, carry on - I won't bang on about this any further. It's been a fun draft to follow, actually, and a slightly different spin than what I had imagined.
Looking forward to hearing the ideas. A part we could improve for sure.