Absolute nail on the head! Totally agree with just about every comment, starting 11 can probably give most sides a game but some serious top class quality required, Veratti schooling Herrera last night showed Herrera level, very against most Premier League sides but level maybe two below the elite.
Investment Investment Investment
- Thread starter Ranchero
- Start date
Its got **** all to do with investment. How much did Sanchez and Lukaku cost and people are happy to write them off as not being good enough. they were a huge investment. Pogba and Martial up until a couple of months ago were being aimed at the exit. they were a huge investment too.
Its about buying a bit smarter to make an actual team, not about throwing money at acquiring a collection of individuals. We have had £800m of "Investment" through a revolving door in the last 5 years. What we need is someone with a plan buying pieces that actually fit.
We won many many many trophies in modern history with a combination of players who were big signings but also a number of players who on the face of it weren't the greatest but when all fitted together actually worked. That's what we need to aim for not 11 superstars. Our current manager is testament to the effectiveness of that.
Its about buying a bit smarter to make an actual team, not about throwing money at acquiring a collection of individuals. We have had £800m of "Investment" through a revolving door in the last 5 years. What we need is someone with a plan buying pieces that actually fit.
We won many many many trophies in modern history with a combination of players who were big signings but also a number of players who on the face of it weren't the greatest but when all fitted together actually worked. That's what we need to aim for not 11 superstars. Our current manager is testament to the effectiveness of that.
The Glazers absolutely don't want to spend what it takes to bring in quality players, when your spending only 12 percent of the club's total income over the past 2 transfer windows that is a pretty damning statement which smacks that the powers that be are satisfied that we have enough to get top 4 hence the contract extensions and desire to promote youth (nothing wrong with that) both cost effective rather than wanting to improve the side to challenge for the title, as well as Solskjaer has been doing there is a strong suspicion its all abit PR with the caretaker thing to avoid spending in the last window.
There’s enough investment in your squad. You’re just really bad at it. Guys like Matic, Sanchez, Fellaini Mkhitaryan and others were always going to be failures and were obvious bad investments. While City for example is loaded with young players on the verge of stardom, you buy someone like Sanchez, who was obviously going to decline soon.
I'm saying we should be able to buy 3 world class players each season not that we will. The club should be investing heavily until it gets back to the top and then only small tinkering is required. That simply hasn't happened. Like I said before our net spend is £40m this season, West Ham spent that on F.Anderson.
I think there's enough talent to finish top 4 each season but not enough to challenge for anything.
Right now our front 6 picks itself. Barring arguably Lukaku there is nobody to come in that doesn't drastically weaken us if one of those 6 is missing.
We have no back up CM that is good enough to start for us.
We can't play our preferred quick attacking football with Mata or Sanchez.
It's far from ideal.
Our fullbacks pick themselves right now also. Young has an inexperienced kid for competition. Shaw has no competition. How is that sustainable?
Lindelof, Jones, Smalling and Bailly are all reasonable players but it's fair to say there isn't an obvious partnership there that will be up to it against the biggest teams. That needs to be addressed.
Ole has done a fantastic job in showing we are a top 4 squad and recapturing our style of play. He NEEDS to be given the funds to make it sustainable. As it stands we're always a couple of injuries away from not being able to play anything like the way went. As last night showed.
Who do you think is world class that we should buy or could have bought since Fergie went.
You've lost the plot if you think we have enough quality to compete with the likes of PSG, Juve, Barca, Real & Bayern.
There's a world of difference between competing for the top 4, which we should be doing, and consistently challenging in the CL. We are paying the price for 5 years of horrendous transfer decisions and misguided managerial appointments, a team full of stars is a far cry from what we have right now.
If Young is injured they can bring in Valencia or Darmian or Dalot. If Shaw is injured they have Dalot or Young (who can play there). There is cover for Shaw. Dalot plays right back or left back. But is the one player that seems to have taken a dip since Solskjaer arrived. Not sure whether that is a Portuguese thing.
Agreed. The glazers have given the managers more than enough to build something. Unfortunately those managers hadn't a fecking clue.
We need to get back to SAFs way. Signing talented players on the way up instead of signing names. And buying players we actually need.
Sanchez epitomises everything that's been wrong with our approach. Why sign another left winger to replace our best performing player at the time, when we have issues in almost all other positions?
Valencia is on his way out. As is Darmian.
Looking forward we can plan based on having Shaw, Young and Dalot.
He's already stated he's met with Woodward to discuss his vision for the team weather he gets the job full time or not. Basically saying that no matter whom gets the job, they need to follow this blue print. He estimated it would take another 2 seasons.
What lazy and factually untrue sentiments.
We've only been outspent by PSG and City since Fergies retirement. The best PSG have managed to date in the CL since 2013 is the QF's and in the last 2 seasons gone backwards and knocked out at the R16 stage. So for all their investment they are hardly dominating.
The same can be said for City. They've made a SF once and Pep hasn't managed better than that yet himself.
The board have repeatedly broken transfer records since 2013, I'm really really bored of tripe like this being posted when everything shows they have backed the managers. The problem is the scouting and lack of plan / identity, not in the sums of money spent.
Prett much what I was saying.. having said that I am happy
Agreed. Central midfield, in particular, has got to be (very belatedly) addressed. Without Pogba in the second leg against PSG, I just sense more pain because we just don't have the quality in central midfield to dictate the game. And not enough energy in Matic in particular to press... and I know he has been a revelation since Mourinho has gone. But he cannot do it week in week out.
Dead on. £800m spent ffs! How can anyone argue that managers haven't been backed. £60m players, £75m players, £90m players. That SHOULD be well on the way to a world class team if they were the right players.
In the last year we has broken a wages record to sign a forward and spent £53m on a new midfielder and if either are in the first choice XI again I will be shocked. That's not an investment issue its a selection of where to invest issue.
We've been through this a million times on this forum. Yes, if you start from an arbitrary point in the Glazers tenure which happened to coincidence with huge inflation in the transfer market you will quite clearly see our total investment is comparably high against other clubs
However, that misses the point so badly, for the following reasons;
1. We needed to sign almost a whole squad of players as we'd spent next to nothing since 2005!
2. We've been signing these players at a time when even a run-of-the-mill PL CB costs £50m
Just to demonstrate that point, our opposition last night have spent £400m (half of that figure) on two players. Let's see how our figures compare five years from now when each team has gone through a full transfer cycle. If we are still in the top few in Europe, then I will at least credit the Glazers for spending a par amount based on our earnings
FYI - I do also agree with your point about our Scouting. The money could have absolutely been spent better but this isn't a contradiction of my above point
The other problem is we buy players who we don't need, or buy players and use them wrong. For example, we already had Martial and Rashford playing on the left wing when Mourinho brought in Sanchez. He just wasn't needed. Then when we had DiMaria, LVG either played him on the right or as a striker. We all saw last night that DiMaria is at his best as a left winger. We need to be smarter when we spend, and use players properly...
Sanchez cost nothing in terms of transfer fees. It was a swap deal with Mkhitaryan. Lukaku cost £75m and if we were to sell him now, might lose around £20m. But would have kept his value if he kicked on. Pogba was £89m. He is worth far more than than now.
What the board must recognise is that players are assets. If we had splashed out on Thiago Alicantra, for instance, when in his mid 20s, the chances would be his value would appreciate. If Kante was fed up being played as a right winger, I'd pay the money to get him in, the 27-year-old's value would dip as he neared 30. Fact is we have to see the money as a potential investment. If Hudson N'Doi was available I would be doing precisely what Bayern have done, and go for him... but Chelsea would not sell to a rival.
But givent he utter mess that has been made of spending £800m over the last 5 years on players not playing in our first XI or no longer with the club there is nothing to suggest that the issue of a perceived lack of investment can possibly be more pressing that crap investment. Id rather have £400m invested well than £800m be available and squandered in the manner it has thus far.
Sanchez cost a fortune in salary which is why I said that. Lukaku would be worth more if he was playing well but yes, however if he was playing well it wouldn't actually matter because we wouldn't be wanting to potentially replace him. Pogba was on the way out 2 months ago and we would only have benefited from an inflationary rise in fees rather than him actually being worth more because we made him a better player.
The N'Doi signings are precisely the signings we aren't making, instead we are buying guys at the wrong place in their careers and to be honest regardless of where they are we have been making £800m worth of talent worse not better over the last 5 years so its a moot point.
We used to buy players (for whatever fee) and make them better players. That's the key to success. Over the last 5 years you would be hard pressed to find many significant examples of this happening if any.
It's a valid point and this is why I have been arguing we SHOULDN'T spend any more money until the DoF is in-place
However, we under-spent last summer (£69m) and have done nothing in Jan. so I would expect a MINIMUM of £200m net to be spent in the Summer window. Even that would only be 'par'. Any less will be another show of under-investment in my opinion
Mourinho had us think the likes of Pogba, Martial and Rashford weren't good enough either though? It doesn't take Mourinho to see where we're lacking, Mourinho made the situation worse though by completely stripping away the confidence of those players who are good enoughFirstly, this is not a thread championing Mourinho. He lost the dressing room and had to go.
The timing of Mourinho's departure was surprising. However, not so, if you were aware that you would not be investing in the January transfer window, and know that the Portuguese manager would implode after our failure in the summer.
When Solskjaer came in to not just steady the ship but turn it into a speed boat, my first thoughts were, right that shows we are not going to do anything in the January window, and he has been put in to do the best with what he has got. And lo and behold, no activity other than outgoings in January.
Martial and Jones putting pen to paper is good news, but is masking the fact that we are not investing enough on the pitch to properly challenge at the top level this season, and if Solskjaer gets the job on a full time basis, will that herald a period where he is expected to continue to work with what he has got, with no significant strengthening?
That is my concern.
What we have right now is a squad that is only good enough to be Top 4. Mourinho, for all his miriad of faults knew this. After all, he built some of this.
But that does not mean that he was wrong in terms of needing investment for this season, especially if we have any ambitions to even challenge for the Premier League or do anything significant in the Champions League.
He is right that our central defenders are not good enough at the top level. They are exposed when we play top sides. Against Spurs they were all over the shop and for the Mbappe goal, especially just embarrassing. How Bailly can let that ball get across him is concerning. He has to block it.
We also lack in central midfield and this has been a long-time mantra. While the performances of Herrera and Matic have undoubtedly been a revelation since Solskjaer invited them to pass forward instead of sideways and back, at the very top level, they don't compare. And that is the engine room.
And with Pogba out, who is there? Fred? McTominay? MCTOMINAY? Against even against a weakened PSG?
My concern has been throughout this season, that to compete at the top level we had to invest in at least one top central midfielder and at least one top level central defender. That has not happened.
Sanchez and Lukaku perhaps need to leave to be replaced, so that we have more options in terms of squad. Martial, especially, needs competition to keep him on his toes, because he occasionally goes missing in the big games.
So where we are now, is just about our level.
Ole has brought the spirit of Manchester United back, no question. But the PSG game reminds me of our defeat to Juventus in Turin, nearly 23 years ago, when it was men against boys, a real learning curve for a young, promising but inexperienced United side. It was 1-0, but as Gary Neville once said it could have been 10-0.
I think we, as a team, on and off the pitch, can learn from this. As we learnt from that Juventus game.
However, we never won the Champions League three years later without adding investment to vital Champions League guile. Between then and what had to be the most memorable United victories of my lifetime, we made some vital changes. We had Stam instead of Pallister. Poborsky, McClair and Jordi Cruyff were gone. We had added quality in Dwight Yorke, Blomqvist and Sheringham.
We now have to rely on the Glazers and Ed Woodward. And that sentence fills me with a certain amount of dread.
I'm imagining this title in the rhythm of Rocco Granata's - Marina.
Spending/recruitement pre-SAF retirement left a squad needing some serious reinvestment. The starting 11 we won the title with in his last season was not much better than the starting 11 that Leichester won with.
Spending post-SAF retirement would have been sufficent if:
- The squad which Moyes took over was better and we only needed to replace 2/3 players each season and not half the squad.
- The players we bought turned out better/the recruitement was not similar to a blind man walking in a minefield.
- We had a blueprint of what type of football we wanted to play and appointed managers/bought players based on this.
We can still challenge over time if we spend similar sums as we do now on transfers and wages, but only if we are able to spend the money in a more efficent way. Looking at some of the transfers we have made since SAF left us(Disregarding which manager/CEO/Board member who made the decision to buy this or that player) we have made some bad investments in the market compearable to players that moved clubs for similar sums at the time.
Ole will have learned more from last nights defeat to PSG than he has from the previous 11 results... and so will Woodward!
PSG were in a different class even before we lost Martial and Lingard and surviving the second half with only a 0-2 deficit was a positive in itself for us. Ole put his best team out for the KO and it really didn't trouble the opposition very much. They showed us respect and held back until half-time then when we could only offer a well out of form Sanchez and a slow and getting slower Mata, as replacements, then PSG stepped it up. OK the refs decisions didn't help but Ole said post match, "there is a mountain to climb" and it wasn't just the second leg he was talking about, he was identifying where he wants us to be.
Whether Ole remains or not as permanent manager, I suspect the file he hands to Ed Woodward at the end of his audition, will identify precisely were we need to improve and which players might be able to help us... then Ed has to invest!
PSG were in a different class even before we lost Martial and Lingard and surviving the second half with only a 0-2 deficit was a positive in itself for us. Ole put his best team out for the KO and it really didn't trouble the opposition very much. They showed us respect and held back until half-time then when we could only offer a well out of form Sanchez and a slow and getting slower Mata, as replacements, then PSG stepped it up. OK the refs decisions didn't help but Ole said post match, "there is a mountain to climb" and it wasn't just the second leg he was talking about, he was identifying where he wants us to be.
Whether Ole remains or not as permanent manager, I suspect the file he hands to Ed Woodward at the end of his audition, will identify precisely were we need to improve and which players might be able to help us... then Ed has to invest!
This has to be a wind up.
Ridiculous post. How do you post that shit and then conveniently forget that those stars and talent had two major injuries at half time? Losing Lingard and Martial was a massive blow.
Ole has played three 'big games' already and won against Arsenal away, Tottenham away, and now lost to PSG, fair enough.
How knee jerk do you want to be. PSG are one of the best sides in Europe and they only shaded the game last night.
Don't give in to this ridiculous narrative that Ole has failed in big games or whatever - in the 11 games we went unbeaten, Liverpool lost to Wolves, City lost to Crystal Palace, and Chelsea got dicked 4-0 by Bournemouth. EVERY game is a big game for Manchester United, and it's only the dumbest hack pundits that think that football is won on paper - Ferguson won many titles doing what Ole is doing.
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It is third highest in football or so.
Since Fergie left: 14-15 summer (6 signings), 15-16 summer (6 signings), 16-17 summer (4 signings), 17-18 summer (3 signings). That is not counting January arrivals like Valdez, Sanchez or Mata.
We need a right back, right winger, centre back and midfielder. These need to be experienced top class signings because this is something we sorely lack. I know people were critical of Mourinho wanting older players, but I think that might be exactly what we need. We need players at their peak that have experience at the top flight of football. Anything less than that and the low level of performance will continue.
But you're missing the key bit of my sentence, how many of those were successful? Of course not many signings are guaranteed to be successful, but we really need a strong window bringing in proper quality that are going to make the difference. We've made a handful of good signings over the last few years, which isn't good enough.
"Successful Signings"?
Rubbish post
I don't think our January activity signals no investment. It's what you would expect from a transition period prior to:
1) Getting a DoF in
2) Appointing a permanent manager (be it Ole or not)
In that situation you don't buy anyone (we haven't), make sure no contracts you may want renewed run out (even if that includes Young as a versatile squad option), and ship out what you know isn't consistent with what you want long term (Fellaini).
That's exactly what we've done. It was never realistically in the cards to challenge for the league or the CL, our best case scenario was to get CL qualification and give all players an opportunity to shine (or not) in a different setting. Some are blossoming, others continue to look shite, and that's great input for our Summer activity.
We are doing all the right things to turn things around, just need to stay patient. Or would you rather we had repeated the Sanchez exercise this January?
If anything, the only slightly worrying thing is I don't hear any news on who this DoF is or when he is coming in.
I think if Ole does get the job then it will partly because of his experience with the reserves and his ability to work with young players. We have talented young players coming through the ranks that need to be blooded into the first team. Those players have the ability to be equivalent of a top signing, so the work should start there. Building a team from within should be the goal.
I do worry Ole will settle on buying less players just to please Ed and the board to get the job.
We need to put some daylight between us and Chelsea/Arsenal to give them a proper go. So far so good, I didn't expect us to get into 4th before mid-February, plenty of games to execute that too.
No big issues regarding not making deals in January.
Problem is that the we should already make the deals for the summer, regardless of who the manager is. Players shifting clubs during the summer are already being worked on during the season. It is not like the season ends and the club decides to buy a player.
Getting a DoF in should have already happened. No point in getting a DoF after the end of the season and then starting to make deals and plan. The longer we wait the more likely it is that we will not appoint a DoF and we are left with Woodward/the board deciding who we buy(not that this will change when we get a DoF).
Not even our strongest XI is out of question. There are too many weak links in the starting line up, and our options in the squad just not good enough. We seriously need to invest properly eventhough we spent a shitload of money in the past 5 years. It's shocking really
I don't understand where people get this narrative from. We've spent fecktonnes of money, just did it badly. I don't think we want to go into penny-pinching mode, more a case of making sure the investments are sound.
I agree. All the same squad concerns are there for me as there were previously. If we want to get back on top we need to address them, and we can't take an age to do it either, because otherwise there'll be new issues cropping up and we'll just be floating about, knocking on the door of moving up to the next level.
Ole has shown that this team is more capable than what other managers have done with it, which is what we knew, and he's done an excellent job of doing it. I'd be quite happy for him to take over, but I want that squad improving.
Ole has shown that this team is more capable than what other managers have done with it, which is what we knew, and he's done an excellent job of doing it. I'd be quite happy for him to take over, but I want that squad improving.
Agree, that is what I find worrying. It's like we made the right reading of the situation and Ole's great start may have papered over the cracks/sense of urgency on the fundamental changes needed. In true scouser style, maybe last night's loss is a win
