Investment Investment Investment

[fallengt]

We are in the same spot as City was when Mansour took over. Mediocre signings & paid ridiculous wage for everyone, Shaun Wright Philips, Adebayor, Wayne Wright, Jo, Robinho, to name a few. So random and totally lack of direction.They got it right at some point though ( Yaya Toure, Silva and Aguero).

We have 5-6 key players, the rest of them are bang average.

 

[Sterling Archer]

This is why it was a terrific idea not to make any move in January. We need to spend some serious cash. But unlike earlier this season, you wouldn't think twice about it if the team continues to play well with a small hiccup here and there.

 

[Stookie]

For competing to top 4 level, sure.

For competing for trophies we currently have 1 left back who's good enough, 1 centre back, zero right backs, 2 midfielders, 2 wide players and 2 forwards (I still think Lukaku can rediscover his prior form). For a squad of 20-25 players to be unable to even select an XI that is of sufficient quality that is abysmal.

Agree with this. It does need major investment. Possibly 6/7 players at the top level. It will cost a lot and will take a lot of time. And if we give Ole the job, time could be a huge factor in success.

 

[Ish]

Agree that we need to spend big. Priority signings, in my mind, is a minimum of 4 top quality players: CB, RB, DM & RW.

Arguably even a couple more. But with the current market conditions, I’m not even sure we’ll be able to get those 4 “ready made”. We’d probably need to take a punt on 1 or 2 and hope it works out (like Robertson at Pool, as an example).

 

[arthurka]

I do worry Ole will settle on buying less players just to please Ed and the board to get the job.

No he won´t there isn´t a scenario where this squad is capable of competing in all competitive competitions we want to be in.
He has done remarkably well since he came but sadly last night showed that we cannot afford to loose couple of players through injuries to compete on the level we want to be on.
Our direction post Fergie is non existent and Ed has to be made accountable for some of these signings. We need at least 4 players next summer of a good quality. CB,RB,CM,RW no two ways about it.

 

[reddaz71]

He's already stated he's met with Woodward to discuss his vision for the team weather he gets the job full time or not. Basically saying that no matter whom gets the job, they need to follow this blue print. He estimated it would take another 2 seasons.



What lazy and factually untrue sentiments.

We've only been outspent by PSG and City since Fergies retirement. The best PSG have managed to date in the CL since 2013 is the QF's and in the last 2 seasons gone backwards and knocked out at the R16 stage. So for all their investment they are hardly dominating.

The same can be said for City. They've made a SF once and Pep hasn't managed better than that yet himself.

The board have repeatedly broken transfer records since 2013, I'm really really bored of tripe like this being posted when everything shows they have backed the managers. The problem is the scouting and lack of plan / identity, not in the sums of money spent.

"Tripe"...do these keyboard warriors ever listen to themselves.....

 

[Green_Red]

We need to put some daylight between us and Chelsea/Arsenal to give them a proper go. So far so good, I didn't expect us to get into 4th before mid-February, plenty of games to execute that too.

I agree, but I meant long term we need to be thinking of bringing as many players through the ranks as we can. If the history of Manchester United teaches us anything its that our biggest success has been with players that have come through the ranks. No need to shit the bed and just buy players left right and center just for the sake of it.

 

[devilish]

The first thing we need to determine is what are United's expectations. If the answer to that is top 4 then we might get away with just 4 key signings (RW, LB, RB, CB).

If we are aiming for better then we need to rethink our whole system. First of all we need someone to take over the football side as its clearly that having a money man with absolutely no idea about the football side is not working. We need a top quality DOF, a technical director, possibly a head of recruitment and if we're keeping Ole as manager then SAF need to be reemployed at board level.

Secondly we need to analyse the squad. First teamers who aren't great week in week out can't be called first teamers anymore. That means the likes of Shaw, Bailly, Lindelof, Dalot, Smalling, Lingard and possibly Herrera as well. Meanwhile squad players need to be dependable. This mean that players can be kept because of past reputation (ex Sanchez), they are nice lads (ex Mata), they work hard or because they produce great facial expressions. We're neither a comedy club nor an elephant grave's yard

This is how I rate our team if we are truly aiming for the best

Blue - first team
Red - squad players

The rest can easily feck off.


GK: DDG, Romero

DR: Dalot, Valencia, Darmian
DL: Shaw, Young
DC: Smalling, Lindelof, Jones, Bailly, Rojo

DM: Matic, Herrera
MC: Pogba, Fred, Periera
RW: Mata, Lingard
LW: Martial, Sanchez

STK: Lukaku, Rashford.

 

[Footyislife]

The first thing we need to determine is what are United's expectations. If the answer to that is top 4 then we might get away with just 4 key signings (RW, LB, RB, CB).

If we are aiming for better then we need to rethink our whole system. First of all we need someone to take over the football side as its clearly that having a money man with absolutely no idea about the football side is not working. We need a top quality DOF, a technical director, possibly a head of recruitment and if we're keeping Ole as manager then SAF need to be reemployed at board level.

Secondly we need to analyse the squad. First teamers who aren't great week in week out can't be called first teamers anymore. That means the likes of Shaw, Bailly, Lindelof, Dalot, Smalling, Lingard and possibly Herrera as well. Meanwhile squad players need to be dependable. This mean that players can be kept because of past reputation (ex Sanchez), they are nice lads (ex Mata), they work hard or because they produce great facial expressions. We're neither a comedy club nor an elephant grave's yard

This is how I rate our team if we are truly aiming for the best

Blue - first team
Red - squad players

The rest can easily feck off.


GK: DDG, Romero

DR: Dalot, Valencia
DL: Shaw, Young
DC: Smalling, Lindelof, Jones, Bailly, Rojo

DM: Matic, Herrera
MC: Pogba, Fred, Periera
RW: Mata, Lingard
LW: Martial, Sanchez

STK: Lukaku, Rashford.

Rashford is too inconsistent to be a first team striker & Lukaku doesn't fit our style of play. Maybe Sanchez/Martial but then our wing options are nonexistent. Massive investment needed cycling Mata/Lukaku out for 2 better options. For right now Lukaku playing wide right, Martial wide left, with Sanchez/Rashford F9 is the best option. Sanchez you just can't move due to wages & still a chance he gets back to his level which was top 3 EPL player. Patience is our only option there.

Matic isn't a first team player against the best sides. Too slow leaves too big of a gap with Pogba not tracking back consistently. Dalot is probably championship level at best.

Our defenders are fine. We have athletic defenders who can pass the ball with the exception of Smalling. All the chances against PSG came with the spacing Matic/Young were not able to cover. Bailly is one of the fastest defenders out there & if he couldn't cover Mbappe no one can. It's called world class talent. Only way to defend that is if Young was actually in a proper position to cover ADM & didn't stay 5 yards off his man cause he's not the best defender. Fix Matic/RB situation and we have a solid defense.

 

[devilish]

Rashford is too inconsistent to be a first team striker & Lukaku doesn't fit our style of play. Maybe Sanchez/Martial but then our wing options are nonexistent. Massive investment needed cycling Mata/Lukaku out for 2 better options. For right now Lukaku playing wide right, Martial wide left, with Sanchez/Rashford F9 is the best option. Sanchez you just can't move due to wages & still a chance he gets back to his level which was top 3 EPL player. Patience is our only option there.

Matic isn't a first team player against the best sides. Too slow leaves too big of a gap with Pogba not tracking back consistently. Dalot is probably championship level at best.

Our defenders are fine. We have athletic defenders who can pass the ball with the exception of Smalling. All the chances against PSG came with the spacing Matic/Young were not able to cover. Bailly is one of the fastest defenders out there & if he couldn't cover Mbappe no one can. It's called world class talent. Only way to defend that is if Young was actually in a proper position to cover ADM & didn't stay 5 yards off his man cause he's not the best defender. Fix Matic/RB situation and we have a solid defense.

Rashford reminds of Andy Cole. He might not be a top class goal poacher but he brings other things to the table that justify his role as a first teamer. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have a plan B for him as SAF had for Coley. Matic is decent in a 3 men CM, however I concede that we need a top class player that sits between Pogba and Matic. Defence is horrible. None of them is remotely first team level.

I don't think all issues will be sorted in 1 transfer window. However if we really want to go back to were we belong to then all those isues need to be tackled.

 

[el3mel]

There is enough talent in the squad. Enough quality. Enough stars. It's a decent manager needed to pull it all together and up until last night I thought OGS was the one but he shown he hasn't got the minerals for the big games.

Imagine this being the first post in the thread. I see you have taken the cake already anyway.

The op is right. The squad is good enough for top 4, can finish 3rd or even 2nd with some work but that's about it. It's not a title winning squad. The only way anyone can see it as a title winning squad is either overrating our players or have accepted mediocrity.

 

[RC89]

No there is not. Scratch below the surface and it's inadequete. We have a talented first team, but even that is made up of two makeshift players (RB and RW). We have depth in some parts of our squad, but in other parts, that depth results in a decrease in talent.

Take our first 11. They're all very good players who work well together and fit into a system.

DDG
Young Lindelof Bailly Shaw
Herrera Matic
Lingard Pogba Martial
Rashford
​

However ;

• Young is a weak link at the very best level. He tries hard, but could easily be replaced by anyone of our oppositions RB
  
• Lingard is effective because of the system, but could easily be improved to provide the same sort of threat

Now consider the squad, the next 11.

GK - Romero; excellent choice, couldn't ask for better.
RB - Dalot, unproven youngster, potentially talented, but finding his feet. I think he's fine for his role, but he's no threat to Young or improvement on his role.
CB - Smalling is decent, Jones and Rojo weaken our team.
LB - Darmian - a clear weakening of the side.
CDM - We don't have cover, we makeshift Herrera into this role.
CM - Fred is unproven at this level, Periera and Mctomminay are not good enough. All three weaken our side.
CAM - Can Mata replace Pogba? No. Can Fred? No. Can Lingard? No. All three could play this role for us, but all of them would be a significant step down in capability. You can't have like for like with Pogba, but you can change your system to still be effective without him. We don't have that option. Were creatively hamstrung without him.
LW - Sanchez is a huge downgrade on Martial. He's delivered nothing for us in a year.
RW - Lingard is hardly setting the world alight. His contribution is looking busy and passing it to rashford or Martial. Despite that if we replace him with Mata (our only alternative), we loose all that capability too.
ST - Lukaku is a good striker, doesn't really fit our system too well, but he's the least of our worries. We do look less offensive when he plays compared to Rashford though - so again a downgrade. He also struggles to play as the big man up top, so it's not like we can change the system to suit him.

Tell me where i'm wrong, or how this situation is good enough for us to win the league/CL?

Agree with pretty much all of this.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Who do you think is world class that we should buy or could have bought since Fergie went.

There has been plenty of missed opportunities since Sir Alex retired, they may not be world class at the time but there is a real lack of foresight with our transfer activity.

De Bruyne when he left Chelsea, Dembele when he was at Rennes. We were scouting Martial when Mbappe would have been in the same youth ranks at Monaco. Half the squad that left Monaco after they won the title.

Sancho was in our own city available on a free, yet we didn’t even try to sign him. He was better than any youngster we had our in youth system.

Juventus has signed plenty of decent players on free transfers. Why didn’t we go for Malcom at £35-40m when we spent bugger all in the summer? He’s a good player that has to compete with some unbelievable players at Barcelona and still only 21.

It looks like we won’t even try for De Ligt, missed out on De Jong already. I don’t believe all these youngsters automatically turn us down for other offers, we simply aren’t trying to get them.

 

[NinjaZombie]

I think we definitely need several better players. It's all well and good hoping some players would come good when the rest are winning league titles and trophies, as it was in Fergie's time with Evra, Vidic, Forlan, Veron etc but at this point in time, the more we wait, the more we slide into irrelevancy.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

It looks like we won’t even try for De Ligt, missed out on De Jong already. I don’t believe all these youngsters automatically turn us down for other offers, we simply aren’t trying to get them.

Todibo, Torreira, Hamed Traore, Odrizola, Arthur Melo, De Jong, Pavard, Lucas Paqueta, Piatek, Haidara etc all during the last 12 months.

Instead we bought Fred for a few £. We also got Dalot, and will not complain about him.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Todibo, Torreira, Hamed Traore, Odrizola, Arthur Melo, De Jong, Pavard, Lucas Paqueta, Piatek, Haidara etc all during the last 12 months.

Instead we bought Fred for a few £. We also got Dalot, and will not complain about him.

Considering how much Lindelof has improved in his second season no one should be writing off Fred.

 

[Coops73]

I’m clinging onto the hope that the lack of investment is down to the fact that the Glazers are in the process or are looking to sell the club but it’s the hope that kills you.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Considering how much Lindelof has improved in his second season no one should be writing off Fred.

Said this before; Lindelof was never made for a style of play where parking the bus and invite crossing was the general idea of defending. This is something we could easily determine when we bought him based on his abilities.
Fred is still a total unknown. I hope he at least can become a decent squadplayer given time, adjusting to the language and the team, but i have serious doubts regarding him. And based on the little footage available of him i could not see why we bought him.

 

[Steerpike]

There is enough talent in the squad. Enough quality. Enough stars. It's a decent manager needed to pull it all together and up until last night I thought OGS was the one but he shown he hasn't got the minerals for the big games.

There is a lack of depth, in quality terms, in the squad. Ole knows his best XI, and knows how to set them up to achieve the best results, but he is hamstrung whenever he loses players to injury or suspension, or simply needs to rotate the squad to keep the players fresh. I'm sure he knew what the parameters would be around transfers in this window, and the lack of signings is not a surprise. What he needs to do now is provide an honest assessment of the squad so that we can make preparations for the next transfer window.

We do need to ship some players out, some because they are past their best but also some fairly recent signings. Given their wages this may not be easy to accomplish. Off the top of my head, the list of outgoings would include Valencia, Mata, Sanchez, Fred, Perreira, and Rojo. In addition to those, Matic and Young can only be viewed as useful in the short term, and their replacements need to be lined up.

If we want to play consistently in our current preferred formation, we need to make sure we have viable backups in every position. Right now, I don't believe we have those for any of the front three or for the midfield trio. Contrary to what many are saying, I think we do have sufficient cover in defence presently (though a commanding centre back and a new right back would still be useful).

We should not lose sight of the players coming up through the ranks, but the most promising performers are in the U18 rather than U23 side, so still some way off being ready for regular first team action.

Regarding the observation that Ole hasn't got what it takes for the big games, I think it's far too soon to be making that judgement. I do think he made a mistake last night - Lukaku should have come on rather than Sanchez - but it was a close call (he couldn't have known just how ineffective Sanchez would be).

 

[MikeKing]

Who are making our signings? The managers? Scouting? Ed?
Fred, Rojo, Bastian, Darmian, (at times Herrera and Shaw) and a few others. They don't play. We have spent money but missed on so many signings, not only the big ones like Sanchez but the small ones. We need to trust our scouting and buy a lot of players really instead of relying on players we already know are not good enough. Glazers have seen that buying players didn't work so they are scared to throw more money at the problem. It is clear Ole has gotten a lot out of our players, and we see now they are not as bad as we thought, which was bordering on midtable. But we are still a long way of the top due to us being far from other top clubs in squad quality, balance and experience.

We have been inpatient and desperate and instead we basically wasted a lot of years by handling this bad. We have to put our trust in our owners to do the right thing now and showed they have learned, but you know. I don't think many people realises this so why should them?

 

[sunama]

There is enough talent in the squad. Enough quality. Enough stars. It's a decent manager needed to pull it all together and up until last night I thought OGS was the one but he shown he hasn't got the minerals for the big games.

Sorry buddy, but I disagree.
IMO, to win the league, we need to spend at least £300M.
That will allow us to also compete against (not necessarily, beat) the likes of PSG. But to win the CL (not by luck, but on merit), we'd probably need to spend an additional £200M or so.

Put it another way, yesterday, PSG were without their most expensive player and we still got beat. If we brought on Kane and Koulibally (together would cost around £250M), we'd still wouldn't be as good as PSG (including Neymar).

Our owners are penny pinching and doing everything to save money. Their target is top 4...that's it. Winning the league is too expensive, so best to spend £20M* (net), per transfer window and aim to get top 4.

*i watched a youtube channel who stated that our combined net spend over the last 3 transfer windows is £60M, assuming that we say that Sanchez was a free swap with Miki - can someone fact check this?

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Who are making our signings? The managers? Scouting? Ed? Fred, Rojo, Bastian, Darmian, (at times Herrera and Shaw)

Under Mourinho it was reported that during January Woodward, Matt Judge(head of corporate developement) and JM would have a meeting and make a list of 3-5 players in each positions they would like to strengthen.
Matt Judge would meet with the agents of the players on that list and discuss their availability regarding a potential transfer. Based on the outcome of these meetings, Woodward/Judge would contact the clubs. If they were to make an offer they would need to call Florida(where the Glazers live) to get "permission". If they were to increase a bid they would need to make another call to Florida and so on. The contracts was negotiated by Matt Judge.

I think the same people(except Mourinho) are involved today, and nothing will really change when/if a DoF/sporting director/head of Recruitement. We will still need permission from Florida. Woodward will still be heavily involved in the process and Matt Judge will still handle contracts and agent negotiations. Not many people with experience/competence/understanding in the sport they are working with involved in important decisions and processes that directly influences the future of this club for good or bad.

 

[MikeKing]

Under Mourinho it was reported that during January Woodward, Matt Judge(head of corporate developement) and JM would have a meeting and make a list of 3-5 players in each positions they would like to strengthen.
Matt Judge would meet with the agents of the players on that list and discuss their availability regarding a potential transfer. Based on the outcome of these meetings, Woodward/Judge would contact the clubs. If they were to make an offer they would need to call Florida(where the Glazers live) to get "permission". If they were to increase a bid they would need to make another call to Florida and so on. The contracts was negotiated by Matt Judge.

I think the same people(except Mourinho) are involved today, and nothing will really change when/if a DoF/sporting director/head of Recruitement. We will still need permission from Florida. Woodward will still be heavily involved in the process and Matt Judge will still handle contracts and agent negotiations. Not many people with experience/competence/understanding in the sport they are working with involved in important decisions and processes that directly influences the future of this club for good or bad.

Thank you man. Good post.

 

[Canagel]

We need to simply find better targets. Look at that Arthur guy at Barcelona. Has seamlessly slotted in like he'd played there for years . We shouldn't be needing to spend 50 plus million everytime we want to improve the squad . A lot of money has been wasted at the club .
Darmian,Rojo, Sanchez, Mata, Lukaku etc average players not justifying their wages

 

[SteveW]

We have about 15 useful players. I'm honestly not that concerned though because it's plainly obvious that Ole feels the same way. He's really positive about all of his players in the media but you can see he only really means it about the ones he's picking the most. I don't think he'll be a yes man to the Glazers and agree to carry dead wood players into next season.

If hired permanently I get the distinct impression that there won't be much more fecking around and the likes of Rojo, Darmian, Valencia, Pereira will be gone immediately. I'd expect Mata, Sanchez and Lukaku to follow once attainable replacements are identified.

 

[Dominos]

People on here want a world class player in every position and they're not patient enough to realise that it's not obtainable in one summer.

In terms of first 11 I think just adding a CB, RB and RW in one window would make a huge difference to the current team. In the current market when every decent player seems to cost a minimum of 50m then you're not going to able to replace half your squad, you have to prioritise.

 

[Class of 63]

Forget last night, with our current form we are a better start to the season away from competing for the League this season, we need investment, everybody does, but the squad is a damn sight better than some would have us believe.

 

[Isotope]

Considering how much Lindelof has improved in his second season no one should be writing off Fred.

Didn't know you can improve player by let him sitting on the bench.

 

[stevoc]

We've bought 1 player in the last 3 transfer windows.
We need to ship out the dead wood and replace with a much better quality of player.

Fred and Dalot. Grant too if you want to count him.

I agree though the likes of rojo darmian Valencia etc need moved on and replaced.

 

[arnie_ni]

Sancho
Rice
De light
Any rb

Would be a fabulous summer but its dreamland

 

[minoo-utd]

Hope we add 3 4 ready to play directly and and adapt to the team. Stop making Dalot kind of signings we can't wait specially for this area 2 3 seasons AGAIN. We need wise investment.

 

[CA_vampire]

Fact: we are fourth in the premiership. And this happened after the Mourinho mess. Obviously, this means that we have a good squad.

But a "good squad" cannot really compete with the top teams in Europe (Real, Barca, PSG, City, Bayern). To do that, we need a top squad. For a top squad we need at least two more world class players (world class or almost world class).

Today, only De Gea is trully world class. Maybe also Pogba, on his day. Nobody else. In my opinion we need at least two more players at that level. It does not matter what positions they play. The problem is that it is not easy (or cheap) to get two world class players...

 

[WR10]

Mourinho was right. If he was more of a human rather than this detached genius he could have taken us to heights we haven’t seen before. I hope ole stamps down his demands when he gets nice and cozy here. Ole knows we’re not actually good enough past our local game. He has done brilliantly so far to elevate the mentality enough to dominate 90% of premier league teams though.

 

[cyril C]

Do we have the scouts to do it? Fred, Lukaku, Sanchez were all expensive investments.

Someone mentioned we have 50 scouts in the house, how many more do you need? Beside, do you need any scouts going after a 70-150m player? Just watch him on TV or attend a few games to write your report.

 

[cyril C]

Fact: we are fourth in the premiership. And this happened after the Mourinho mess. Obviously, this means that we have a good squad.

But a "good squad" cannot really compete with the top teams in Europe (Real, Barca, PSG, City, Bayern). To do that, we need a top squad. For a top squad we need at least two more world class players (world class or almost world class).

Today, only De Gea is trully world class. Maybe also Pogba, on his day. Nobody else. In my opinion we need at least two more players at that level. It does not matter what positions they play. The problem is that it is not easy (or cheap) to get two world class players...

Well, if we can defend on set piece better then perhaps our scoreline would be much better. Do you need world class defender to defend set piece? Nice but really not critical, right? We could have use another better CM to by-pass Pogba when he cannot deliver....

 

[meamth]

Time to get rid of CAM and move forward from there.

I love Mata, but we need to invest on the right wing as much as we needs a world class CM and CB.

Sell Sanchez, Lukaku, Mata and Rojo. Let go of Valencia.

Let's go back to the United way of old, proper fast wing play. Please Woodward, let it happen this summer.

 

[Striker10]

United need new owners or they need to be smarter and faster and more aggressive in the market because right now we're not. We need quite a bit. We have squad players on big wages. We convert failed wingers to full back and we don't replace them or look to challenge them enough. We're not a bad team, but we are a young team and we are lacking 3/4 players of real quality

 

[Toddler]

There is enough talent in the squad. Enough quality. Enough stars. It's a decent manager needed to pull it all together and up until last night I thought OGS was the one but he shown he hasn't got the minerals for the big games.

Okay, seriously? You are delusional. First of all, no the squad is not good enough. Secondly, Ole has been in charge 10+ games, he will not get the best out of the squad within that time. For the big games? Tottenham, arsenal, psg? 2 won.

 

[reddaz71]

Sorry buddy, but I disagree.
IMO, to win the league, we need to spend at least £300M.
That will allow us to also compete against (not necessarily, beat) the likes of PSG. But to win the CL (not by luck, but on merit), we'd probably need to spend an additional £200M or so.

Put it another way, yesterday, PSG were without their most expensive player and we still got beat. If we brought on Kane and Koulibally (together would cost around £250M), we'd still wouldn't be as good as PSG (including Neymar).

Our owners are penny pinching and doing everything to save money. Their target is top 4...that's it. Winning the league is too expensive, so best to spend £20M* (net), per transfer window and aim to get top 4.

*i watched a youtube channel who stated that our combined net spend over the last 3 transfer windows is £60M, assuming that we say that Sanchez was a free swap with Miki - can someone fact check this?

Nail on the head

 

[reddaz71]

Sancho
Rice
De light
Any rb

Would be a fabulous summer but its dreamland

Plus Rabiot