Ireland left horrified by Ana Kriégel’s murder in a derelict farmhouse

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
34,681
On a spring afternoon last year, a 13-year-old boy called at the home of Ana Kriégel, a 14-year-old girl living in the Dublin suburb of Lucan.

He had exciting news: his friend, whom she had a crush on, wanted to meet her. Ana was delighted. She grabbed her hoodie and followed him through a park to a derelict farmhouse where his friend, also aged 13, was waiting. It was a trap.

The object of her affection had prepared for this moment, assembling what police would later call a “murder kit”: zombie mask, black gloves, shin guards, knee pads. His weapons were a long stick and a concrete block.

What unfolded inside that house led last week to both boys, now aged 14, becoming the youngest people in Irish history to be convicted of murder. The case has shocked Ireland and evoked comparisons to the 1993 James Bulger atrocity.

“What has shaken our fundamental assumptions about childhood is that the convicted perpetrators of this crime are children themselves,” said Chris McCusker, a lecturer in clinical psychology at University College Cork. “It invites a lynch-mob mentality, fuelled by assumptions of evil in our midst.”

Social media – in its worst form – bookends the case.

Ana had few friends and was lonely. She sought to connect with peers via YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat and other platforms only to end up bullied – targeted for sexual innuendo and threats. One comment on her YouTube channel expressed a desire to “have her executed”.

Her offence was to be slightly different: adopted from Russia, she was tall, striking and had poor short-term memory, eyesight and hearing, the latter the result of a tumour she’d had removed. She was deemed socially awkward, a “weirdo”.

Social media abuse dehumanised her and now, in death, seeks to avenge her. Threats last week rained on her killers and their families – at anyone deemed players in her tragedy.

Citing the Children Act that prohibits identification of minors accused or convicted of a crime, the trial judge, Justice Paul McDermott, banned identification of the boys. The boy who brutalised – and sexually assaulted Ana – is known as Boy A; his friend who delivered her to the farmhouse, Boy B. Both denied the charges.

Cyber-vigilantes have flouted the ban by naming the pair and posting their pictures on Twitter and Facebook, along with lurid incitements. They have also made threats against their families, a teacher and other boys wrongly identified as the killers. A lawyer for Boy B said the family had gone into hiding.

Detectives from the Garda station in Lucan who carried out the murder investigation are now hunting the would-be avengers, who could face up to three years in jail.

Twitter and Facebook – accustomed to red-carpet treatment by the authorities in Dublin, where they have their European headquarters – have been sucked into the imbroglio.

Representatives from both companies were summoned to a court hearing on Thursday to face contempt of court accusations over the publication of photographs identifying the killers.

Lawyers said the companies could not block in advance what users posted nor pre-empt naming of the boys since the companies did not know the boys’ names.

Justice Michael White upheld an injunction requiring the companies to remove any material identifying the boys but tweaked the wording so that they are expected to act after being made aware of such material. He branded social media users who identified the killers as “idiots”and urged the police to pursue them “with vigour”.

It is a fraught, messy aftermath to a case that will haunt Ireland.

Tusla, the state’s children and family agency, issued guidance for parents unsure how to discuss it with children.

“The trial may elicit a range of feelings such as shock, anger, upset, feeling unsafe, or difficulty in trusting others. Children and young people … may need reassurance that these feelings are normal … [and] may need help to express their feelings of sadness and bewilderment as to how this could happen.”

A seven-week trial filled with harrowing details left adult observers feeling the same way. The judge thanked the jury members for their service and excused them further service for life.

Ana was born in February 2004 in Novokuznetsk, in western Siberia. She was adopted two years later by Geraldine and Patric Kriégel. Geraldine was a manager at the state transport company. Patric taught French at Dublin Institute of Technology.
Ana enjoyed primary school but a teacher expressed fear her innocence and distinctiveness would attract mockery in secondary school.

The bullying soon followed, and it was merciless. Ana was derided for having a “fake mam and dad”, sexually harassed, shunned. “You would see other girls walking in groups, and Ana would be walking alone,” Geraldine told the court.

“People didn’t understand her. She was unique and full of fun,” said Patric. “She said she felt invisible.”

Ana set up fake accounts from which she sent bullying messages to herself – expressions of pain and yearning for attention, according to her parents.

Boy A appeared an unlikely murderer. Described by teachers as courteous and intelligent, he was said to be from a stable middle-class home.

After the killing, however, police discovered disturbing material on his electronic devices including more than 12,000 pornographic images, many depicting sexual violence, plus searches for torture methods and “abandoned places in Lucan”.

Boy B told detectives that a month before the murder, Boy A approached him. “He came up to me and said, ‘Hey, wanna kill somebody?’ I said no. He replied with, ‘Ah, here. Why not’. [I said] because it’s retarded. I then asked him who he was planning to kill and he replied ‘Ana Kriégel’.”

Boy B called at Ana’s home at 4.55pm on 14 May 2018 and said Boy A wished to meet her. Leaving the house she smiled at her father and said: “I won’t be long.”

Boy B led Ana through a park to Glenwood House, an abandoned property. He told detectives he fled when Boy A began attacking Ana. He heard her scream.

Prosecutors said forensic evidence showed she fought for her life. The jury was shown a concrete block and metre-long stick stained with her blood. Builder’s tape was looped around her neck. There were about 60 areas of injury to her body. Boy A’s semen was found on a torn top.

When questioned both boys denied any knowledge of the killing.

Boy A denied involvement even after police found the “murder kit” in a backpack at his home. Told Ana’s blood had been found on his boots, he replied: “Are you joking me? Are you actually being serious?”

Court nine in the Criminal Courts of Justice was hushed when the verdicts came last Tuesday. Members of the Kriégel family held hands, hugged and sobbed.

Boy A appeared upset. His father held his hand. His mother wept.

Boy B bowed his head and hugged his mother. His father stormed out, slamming a door, then returned and gave a slow handclap in protest, saying: “An innocent child is going to prison.”

Both boys were remanded into custody pending probation reports and sentencing. In Ireland, children convicted of crimes are seldom sentenced to more than three years but for serious crimes judges have discretion to impose longer sentences.

The taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, said the government will study a UK plan to restrict access to pornography.

McCusker, the clinical psychologist, said the internet and social media were infiltrating consciousness and in some cases normalising sexual violence. “That Pandora’s box is not easily closed, and it continues to spew its contents … what do the emergent and often confused psyches of teenagers have to filter against this assault?”

A toddler from Russia who became Irish, a vibrant, vulnerable teenager who loved to sing and dance and craved friendship but ended up bullied and murdered: Ana Kriégel’s fate shames and bewilders Ireland.

Speaking to RTE as they left the court it was left to her devastated parents to find a glimmer in the darkness. “Ana was a dream come true for us and she always will be.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...orrified-teenage-murder-in-derelict-farmhouse

I doubt there have been many trials in Irish history this relentlessly grim.

I do some volunteer work with kids not much younger than those involved in the trial and they started talking about the murder between themselves the last day. It's hard as an adult to wrap your head around the idea that kids would be that capable of thought-out cruelty, let alone for kids themselves.

Will be interesting to see if the government does follow through on laws regarding access to pornography. In the past I would have been against that sort of law for various reasons but I'm increasingly less sure.
 
Tricky for me.

On one side, these two are likely dangers to society going forward.
Another side, that young are not fully developed mentally and all that other stuff psychology points out.

Lock them up for decades? - A few years does not seem proper for the actual crime, regardless of age.
Can they be rehabilitated? - I'm not sure if they can be rewired per say.
 
Tricky for me.

On one side, these two are likely dangers to society going forward.
Another side, that young are not fully developed mentally and all that other stuff psychology points out.

Lock them up for decades? - A few years does not seem proper for the actual crime, regardless of age.
Can they be rehabilitated? - I'm not sure if they can be rewired per say.

Plus I wouldn't be at all surprised if Boy B appeals his conviction given the nature of the evidence it was based upon (i.e. no physical evidence linking him to the actual murder). Which given his name has already been circulated on social media opens up a whole other avenue of problems.
 
Plus I wouldn't be at all surprised if Boy B appeals his conviction given the nature of the evidence it was based upon (i.e. no physical evidence linking him to the actual murder). Which given his name has already been circulated on social media opens up a whole other avenue of problems.
I really think we will lose his conviction due to the senseless decision to charge him with murder rather than the safe charge of aiding/being an accomplice combined w the leaking of the pics
 
I was just reading about this awful murder, having read yesterday of another murder carried out by two 13-year-old boys in the USA some years ago - they bludgeoned to death the great-grandmother of one of the boys, just to steal $150 and a few bits of jewellery.

Those boys were tried as adults (like this case in Ireland, the murder was planned in advance and weapons were brought to the house), and both received life sentences with minimum terms of over 30 years. They may never be released, of course - we all know what the criminal justice system can be like in the USA.

That sentence seems excessive, as they were children (albeit dangerous ones). In this case in Ireland, you'd hope the sentence is proportionate to the terrible crime.
 
I read that, great police work indeed in the interviewing. I just don't see how boy B doesn't have a good case for appealing his murder charge considering he wasn't physically there and as far as I know there's no recorded conversations where they talk about murdering her
 
That's what my post was alluding to: how does a society determine proportionate punishment to 1) the crime committed, and 2) the age of the perpetrator(s).

Not sure about prisons in other nations but tossing a teenager into an American prison is basically a death sentence, or should one survive will certainly mold said teen into a brutal menace to society should he/she be released later on. American prisons are a cesspool of brutality, atrocities, neglect, etc. There is no true rehabilitation effort by the state for the majority.

Should teens committing criminal acts such as murder, animal cruelty, rape, et al be placed into a clinical setting for evaluation and true rehabilitation effort? And then let paid professionals make further inputs (i.e. remain instituted, transferred to prison, released) as a child/teen enters adulthood?
 
I read that, great police work indeed in the interviewing. I just don't see how boy B doesn't have a good case for appealing his murder charge considering he wasn't physically there and as far as I know there's no recorded conversations where they talk about murdering her

Indeed. As that excellent article says:

"In fact, the vast majority of the evidence against him came from his own mouth during his eight Garda interviews. If he had remained silent it is highly likely he would never have been charged.......The prosecution were relying almost completely on his Garda questioning......they relied heavily on Boy B’s admission that Boy A had asked him a month earlier if he wanted to kill the girl.....The entire case against Boy B would essentially boil down to one issue: Did he believe Boy A when he said this or did he think he was joking? If the former was true Boy B was guilty, if it was the latter he was innocent....."

That's a very narrow line to walk to secure a conviction. The Gardai seemed to have handled it expertly but such a lack of hard evidence would (I assume) always make an appeal a likely outcome.
 
If their sexual kick revolves around extreme violence already at a young age then they should be locked up for life. Either that or chemical castration after they've served their full sentence. They'll forever crave to do it again otherwise, as often as a normal man wants sexual pleasure.
 
That's what my post was alluding to: how does a society determine proportionate punishment to 1) the crime committed, and 2) the age of the perpetrator(s).

Not sure about prisons in other nations but tossing a teenager into an American prison is basically a death sentence, or should one survive will certainly mold said teen into a brutal menace to society should he/she be released later on. American prisons are a cesspool of brutality, atrocities, neglect, etc. There is no true rehabilitation effort by the state for the majority.

Should teens committing criminal acts such as murder, animal cruelty, rape, et al be placed into a clinical setting for evaluation and true rehabilitation effort? And then let paid professionals make further inputs (i.e. remain instituted, transferred to prison, released) as a child/teen enters adulthood?
I'm no phrenologist but judging by his actions and look in his boy A is a proper psychopath
If their sexual kick revolves around extreme violence already at a young age then they should be locked up for life. Either that or chemical castration after they've served their full sentence. They'll forever crave to do it again otherwise, as often as a normal man wants sexual pleasure.
I don't think anyone in Ireland wants boy A seeing the light of day again. The issue is boy B for me. A seems like a Venables in waiting
 
I'm no phrenologist but judging by his actions and look in his boy A is a proper psychopath

I don't think anyone in Ireland wants boy A seeing the light of day again. The issue is boy B for me. A seems like a Venables in waiting
Yeah my post relates to boy A rather than B. B should be charged for assisting murder, as he basically sent the girl to her death. It seems he was fully aware of what was going to happen, did nothing to prevent it and didn't report anything to the police. If the book is thrown at him as well it's all he deserves, 14 year olds shouldn't be treated differently as adults in severe cases like this.
 
That is a very very grim read. The article posted shook me up a bit.
 
I was just reading about this awful murder, having read yesterday of another murder carried out by two 13-year-old boys in the USA some years ago - they bludgeoned to death the great-grandmother of one of the boys, just to steal $150 and a few bits of jewellery.

Those boys were tried as adults (like this case in Ireland, the murder was planned in advance and weapons were brought to the house), and both received life sentences with minimum terms of over 30 years. They may never be released, of course - we all know what the criminal justice system can be like in the USA.

That sentence seems excessive, as they were children (albeit dangerous ones). In this case in Ireland, you'd hope the sentence is proportionate to the terrible crime.
Was is proportionate for a brutal premeditated sexual murder?
 
I despair the most at the parents who still refuse to accept that their kids are doing this, despite all evidence to the contrary. I imagine this impacted massively on the attitude of these two lads.
 
Incredibly harrowing stuff. Never really expect to see a case like this in your own country. It's just awful that this girl was brought to Ireland to have a better life and it ended up like that for her.
 
That is a very very grim read. The article posted shook me up a bit.
Brought me to the point of tears reading it. She had such a fecking hard life and for it end that way is heart-breaking and rage-inducing. B's lies infuriated me. Again and again and again, he tried to worm his way out of it.

I think they could both be out in their mid-20s and it saddens me.
 
I find it incredibly difficult to have faith in the rehabilitation of criminals like these. Or perhaps I'm lacking empathy...which is ironic.
 
If their sexual kick revolves around extreme violence already at a young age then they should be locked up for life. Either that or chemical castration after they've served their full sentence. They'll forever crave to do it again otherwise, as often as a normal man wants sexual pleasure.

Based on the sheer amount and popularity of porn depicting violence against women, one suspects that it's a sexual kick shared by quite a few men. The difference being that the vast majority of those men are presumably able to properly (or at least somewhat properly) contextualize the idea of violence as a fantasy rather than something to actually act out.

In which case one wonders how much the fact that these kids were kids influenced their decision to act out this particular sexual kick. In other words was the problem the sexual kick itself, their own innate personality limitations, the emotional immaturity and inability to contexualise sexual impulses that comes from them being a young kid or a combination of all three? The answer probably indicating whether they really would forever crave (or be in danger of acting upon) similar violence.

Also, what distinction do we make between Boy A and Boy B in this context given that Boy A was the only one found to have actually physically carried out the attack?
 
Poor girl :(

Surely if Boy B even thought Boy A was remotely serious he should have at least told someone? I guess he's just a dumb kid. But having the guilt of knowing your actions led to young girl to be killed in that way... not entirely sure how someone can get over that.
 
Very sad story this case. I've never seen a case get this amount of coverage in Ireland like it before, and it's no surprise its absolutely shocking stuff.

I agree with the people that say Boy B is an interesting case
Hard to say how much he was involved or knew what was going to happen. Not saying he isn't guilty of something (he clearly is) but hard to ascertain what amount of punishment to give him.

I don't think many people here would be too bothered if Boy A never saw anything outside a prison again. Sounds like an absolute psycho despite his young age.
 
Brought me to the point of tears reading it. She had such a fecking hard life and for it end that way is heart-breaking and rage-inducing. B's lies infuriated me. Again and again and again, he tried to worm his way out of it.

I think they could both be out in their mid-20s and it saddens me.
Boy B should get out of it quite soon. I've no idea about the laws there but can they make the murder charges stick on him given he's more an accomplice who didn't actually do the deed himself?
 
That is a very very grim read. The article posted shook me up a bit.

It was the description in another piece of her "bounding" out of the house happily to go meet the boy she liked that cut hardest for me. Partially because it reflects on the desperate loneliness and isolation of a young kid who had been bullied for being different, partially because it's such a teenage thing. The fact that she was lured to her death because she thought a boy she liked had asked his friend to tell her he liked her too drives home that they were all just kids.
 
Boy B should get out of it quite soon. I've no idea about the laws there but can they make the murder charges stick on him given he's more an accomplice who didn't actually do the deed himself?

An accomplice integral to what happened though, who seemed pretty aware he needed to distance himself from it and got meticulously caught in each version of his lies. I think the most likely angle they'll play up in the future is his fear of Boy A, and perhaps again the PTSD causing the lieing. I'm not so certain he'll get off.
 
Can any of this really be linked to the easy accessibility of porn sites online?

Young people have occasionally killed throughout history. Harold Jones, a man suspected of being Jack the Stripper, first murdered two girls aged 15, for example. I’m sure if he’d been young now his internet search history would be similarly grim.
 
Can any of this really be linked to the easy accessibility of porn sites online?

Young people have occasionally killed throughout history. Harold Jones, a man suspected of being Jack the Stripper, first murdered two girls aged 15, for example. I’m sure if he’d been young now his internet search history would be similarly grim.

I'm really unsure on this issue.

On the one hand, my instant reaction is to be deeply suspicious of people pointing the finger at pornography in cases like this. It smacks of the sort of moral panic that has seen (and still sees) campaigns against certain types of films, music and video games in the past. It's also hard to discern between causation and correlation. As you say, it might be that bad people are drawn to bad imagery rather than bad imagery influencing bad people. Plus, any campaign to block porn to those underage will run afoul of the fact that an internet-savvy teen will quickly find away around such a block. Fundamentally parents are in a better position to block access to and contexualise the realities of porn than the government or campaign groups are.

On the other hand, we regularly see articles describing the various effects exposure to porn can have on men, for example in terms of erectile dysfunction, say. Once we accept that years of exposure to porn can have some sort of impact on people's attitude towards and relationship to sex, the idea of actual children being exposed to unlimited quantities of the most violent porn the internet has to offer becomes an alarming one. Even if it doesn't lead to extreme criminal acts, it would surely have to have some effect on their ability to have a healthy and happy sex life (and attitude towards women) as young men? Not mentioning any negative effect it could also have on young women. At which point I wonder if an age block (even one that only hinders a portion of kids from being exposed to porn at a young age) might still be worthwhile. For all that I think parents are the best people to deal with this issue, I also recognise that a lot of parents are ignorant idiots who won't do so properly.
 
Not sure boy A can be saved, but doesn't sound like boy B is a psychopath.
 
This is why you need to watch your kids.
And watch who they are in contact with.

A girl at Bitchy Blaggs school tried to run her over in the school parking lot. The girl had stayed at our house since she was about 7 years old. But she started down a bad path that ended with me saying she couldn't stay the night anymore. She was 14 and just wearing things that I wouldn't even go into the bedroom because of her behavior.

3 years later she tries to run over my daughter.

Cue me and Mrs Blaggs going to her parents house to explain. Momma couldn't believe we had the balls to walk up to her house and say that she tried to hit Bitchy with her truck.

But she did. Can you imagine my reaction to what she said and then her weasel husband coming out to the front door?
 
This is why you need to watch your kids.
And watch who they are in contact with.

A girl at Bitchy Blaggs school tried to run her over in the school parking lot. The girl had stayed at our house since she was about 7 years old. But she started down a bad path that ended with me saying she couldn't stay the night anymore. She was 14 and just wearing things that I wouldn't even go into the bedroom because of her behavior.

3 years later she tries to run over my daughter.

Cue me and Mrs Blaggs going to her parents house to explain. Momma couldn't believe we had the balls to walk up to her house and say that she tried to hit Bitchy with her truck.

But she did. Can you imagine my reaction to what she said and then her weasel husband coming out to the front door?
You are right to be mindful. I'm a 22yo who regrets how he grew up w pornography and his relationship w it. I kind of wish at the ages of 12-14 my parents had been more careful of me

Pornography creates permanent rewirings in brain dopamine activity and reward systems. It's imperative that kids aren't fecked with it. As a young person, this isn't boomer fearmongering
 
That's horrifying.

With regards to how she was treated by other children in general, I've never understood bullying, at least not in the sense that I can relate to it. People can be evil in groups and it appears to be amplified in teens when their brains are going haywire due to all of the hormones. I'd have felt bad for the girl if it was only that, let alone what eventually happened to her. It can be devastating when all they want to do is fit in but only get constant rejection and scrutiny.

Rest in peace, Ana.
 
You are right to be mindful. I'm a 22yo who regrets how he grew up w pornography and his relationship w it. I kind of wish at the ages of 12-14 my parents had been more careful of me

Pornography creates permanent rewirings in brain dopamine activity and reward systems. It's imperative that kids aren't fecked with it. As a young person, this isn't boomer fearmongering
I disagree with that. I find that stance like blaming video games for mass murder.

My son locks himself into fortnite and while it's summer he's got his best friend over and they're fecking wild.
I just feed them pizza and soda.

BUT I always go and check what they are doing and saying. It's about caring what they are doing and who they are talking to.

And talk. Talk. Talk.

And talk.
 
That's horrifying.

With regards to how she was treated by other children in general, I've never understood bullying, at least not in the sense that I can relate to it. People can be evil in groups and it appears to be amplified in teens when their brains are going haywire due to all of the hormones. I'd have felt bad for the girl if it was only that, let alone what eventually happened to her. It can be devastating when all they want to do is fit in but only get constant rejection and scrutiny.

Rest in peace, Ana.

I guess insecure people need others to feel superior to and kids at that age can be horrendously insecure. Also if you're part of the group that lowers the staus of "other" people through bullying you feel more secure within that group and less exposed to being isolated yourself. Also, if you're part of a group bullying someone you likely feel less personal responsibility for the impact it as. Your focus isn't actually on the victim, just yourself and the group you're a part of.

I quite enjoyed secondary school at the time but, thinking back on it, being a teenager is pretty shit all told.
 
Boy B should get out of it quite soon. I've no idea about the laws there but can they make the murder charges stick on him given he's more an accomplice who didn't actually do the deed himself?
Murder by association. Joint enterprise - he knowingly led her to her death; without his part, the murder could not have taken place.

He was more than complicit; he was the catalyst.