Is Fred the worst regular starter for United in living memory?

[Dante]

I’m convinced Fred and McTominay are actually one being in two bodies. When they’re together, our midfield looks impressive but when either one is not there, the other might as well fall sleep near the corner flag.

McTominay is actually a functional midfielder. Fred barely is. Pogba even less so. And Matic only in certain games.

In order of preference:
McTominay/Fred
McTominay/Matic
McTominay/Pogba
Fred/Matic
Fred/Poga
Pogba/Matic

The issue today was that Fred and Pogba are our most press susceptible players in midfield. Matic is actually not quite as bad, though still somewhat press susceptible. McTominay is the only one who's half decent at shielding the ball and keeping possession (not that he's especially amazing himself).

What's funny is that McTominay has missed the last two games, and yet each post-match has talked about 'fixing McFred'. The 'Mc' part of that clearly wasn't the problem against Southampton or Wolves. The guy keeps getting unfairly lumped in with Fred's poor performances even when he's away injured.

McTominay is not a great player. But he is okay. Unfortunately, that's not enough for a lot of people. So his stock drops whenever he's absent because people only remember the worst. It's like the opposite of Pogba, whose reputation gets better when he's injured, because people only remember the best.

 

[Nicoseth]

It's close between him, Dan James and Chris Smalling as the worst players I've seen in a United shirt in a long time.

 

[meamth]

No I don't agree Fred is shit.

Stupid thread.

 

[Widow]

The streets remember Tom Cleverley.

Why, did he duet with them?

 

[Litch]

Djemba Djemba......

 

[United in sin]

McTominay is actually a functional midfielder. Fred barely is. Pogba even less so. And Matic only in certain games.

In order of preference:
McTominay/Fred
McTominay/Matic
McTominay/Pogba
Fred/Matic
Fred/Poga
Pogba/Matic

The issue today was that Fred and Pogba are our most press susceptible players in midfield. Matic is actually not quite as bad, though still somewhat press susceptible. McTominay is the only one who's half decent at shielding the ball and keeping possession (not that he's especially amazing himself).

What's funny is that McTominay has missed the last two games, and yet each post-match has talked about 'fixing McFred'. The 'Mc' part of that clearly wasn't the problem against Southampton or Wolves. The guy keeps getting unfairly lumped in with Fred's poor performances even when he's away injured.

McTominay is not a great player. But he is okay. Unfortunately, that's not enough for a lot of people. So his stock drops whenever he's absent because people only remember the worst. It's like the opposite of Pogba, whose reputation gets better when he's injured, because people only remember the best.

Wow, we really view things differently. I find McTominay to be a limited player who gets loads of plaudits because he works his socks off and has that mythical United 'DNA'.

In reality he's squad material and holds us back as a regular starter due to his inability to influence games against low blocks and teams that hand us possession and they are plenty of those in the season.

His passing is the worst among our CMs and he attempts the least passes per 90 due to his regular resistance to make himself available to receive the ball. Fred on the other hand does not hide from the ball, and we clearly see in equal measure his assets and shortcomings more frequently

 

[Litch]

McTominay is actually a functional midfielder. Fred barely is. Pogba even less so. And Matic only in certain games.

In order of preference:
McTominay/Fred
McTominay/Matic
McTominay/Pogba
Fred/Matic
Fred/Poga
Pogba/Matic

The issue today was that Fred and Pogba are our most press susceptible players in midfield. Matic is actually not quite as bad, though still somewhat press susceptible. McTominay is the only one who's half decent at shielding the ball and keeping possession (not that he's especially amazing himself).

What's funny is that McTominay has missed the last two games, and yet each post-match has talked about 'fixing McFred'. The 'Mc' part of that clearly wasn't the problem against Southampton or Wolves. The guy keeps getting unfairly lumped in with Fred's poor performances even when he's away injured.

McTominay is not a great player. But he is okay. Unfortunately, that's not enough for a lot of people. So his stock drops whenever he's absent because people only remember the worst. It's like the opposite of Pogba, whose reputation gets better when he's injured, because people only remember the best.

The Mc doesn't look great without Fred either though.

 

[hobbers]

Pereira and Cleverley were objectively worse players.

But Fred is atrocious and he makes everyone around him play worse. Never seen a midfielder who has such an obvious negative impact on his team mates play as Fred. The antithesis of a good centre mid.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Pereira and Cleverley were objectively worse players.

But Fred is atrocious and he makes everyone around him play worse. Never seen a midfielder who has such an obvious negative impact on his team mates play as Fred. The antithesis of a good centre mid.

He has no composure whatsoever. It's quite amazing that he's reached this level in the game considering how much he panicks. Maybe the PL /United level is a step too far for him. Not sure if this is how he was before he came to us.

 

[Litch]

Wow, we really view things differently. I find McTominay to be a limited player who gets loads of plaudits because he works his socks off and has that mythical United 'DNA'.

In reality he's squad material and holds us back as a regular starter due to his inability to influence games against low blocks and teams that hand us possession and they are plenty of those in the season.

His passing is the worst among our CMs and he attempts the least passes per 90 due to his regular resistance to make himself available to receive the ball. Fred on the other hand does not hide from the ball, and we clearly see in equal measure his assets and shortcomings more frequently

Agree Fred makes some real feck ups but in fairness, don't believe he ever recovered in the fans eyes from his first season. That said, he doesn't help himself at times. Such a confidence player and seems to take a half before he can get his head right. I like Fred but I'm a sucker for a underdog, he'll be upgraded but there are so many question marks about Pogs and Matic future, nothing will be done until then. Fred is a stop gap like Lindelof until the right players become available

 

[Litch]

Pereira and Cleverley were objectively worse players.

But Fred is atrocious and he makes everyone around him play worse. Never seen a midfielder who has such an obvious negative impact on his team mates play as Fred. The antithesis of a good centre mid.

Hmmmm.....how did we get to 3rd and then 2nd, so many semi's, a final and unbeaten away from home then, if he makes people worse?

 

[ghagua]

It's close between him, Dan James and Chris Smalling as the worst players I've seen in a United shirt in a long time.

Wow!

 

[Dante]

Wow, we really view things differently. I find McTominay to be a limited player who gets loads of plaudits because he works his socks off and has that mythical United 'DNA'.

In reality he's squad material and holds us back as a regular starter due to his inability to influence games against low blocks and teams that hand us possession and they are plenty of those in the season.

His passing is the worst among our CMs and he attempts the least passes per 90 due to his regular resistance to make himself available to receive the ball. Fred on the other hand does not hide from the ball, and we clearly see in equal measure his assets and shortcomings more frequently

Fred is an even more limited player who gets loads of plaudits because he works his socks off and has that mythical Brazilian 'DNA'.

 

[DRJosh]

What would any decent manager play Fred as a DM? Ole is setting him up to fail. It would be mutually beneficial for both club and player if he moved elsewhere under someone who knows his actual attributes, as limited as they are.

 

[ghagua]

Fred can sometimes play well but dear lord, James is something else. How can Ole keep picking him and justify he deserves a place in the squad let alone the team! I bet Elanga, Diallo or Pellestri will contribute more even without experience.

 

[KennyBurner]

He is better than Mctominay so this makes no sense. You cant fully blame him when he is consistently ganged up on because of our team structure.

 

[Dante]

Fred against Wolves:

89% passing accuracy (the highest of any midfielder on either side)
86 touches (more than any player in the Wolves side)
73 passes
2 successful tackles
2 successful interceptions
1 clearance

World class on paper as usual.

 

[greatscott9930]

Why do people start threads like this? Mods, please clamp down on this trash. Take it to the player performance thread.

I just want to second this motion. Threads like this are embarrassing. We have a thread already for performances; and while Fred didn't have his greatest game, there is no reason to have a thread trashing one of our players like this after a game we WON! You'd think we lost the game and Fred purposely scored three own goals reading this thread.

 

[Jackal981]

Fred against Wolves:

89% passing accuracy (the highest of any midfielder on either side)
86 touches (more than any player in the Wolves side)
73 passes
2 successful tackles
2 successful interceptions
1 clearance

World class on paper as usual.

Shows you how shit stats are without context. On paper he looks like Vieira

 

[Dante]

Shows you how shit stats are without context. On paper he looks like Vieira

And yet the same arguments get parroted over and over about how Fred gets 'lots of touches' because he 'makes himself available'. That's only a good thing if he does it at the right times and doesn't make mistakes in the process.

The problem is his unreliability both in and out of possession. You can set up tactically around a steady Eddy. But you can't going into a game with a player who you can't predict. That's at the crux of the debate.

Incidentally, Fred also made 0 (zero) errors against Wolves according to the official stats. Because his shortcomings don't always get captured on stats websites, they tend to get glossed over post-game.

Spoiler

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Fred against Wolves:

89% passing accuracy (the highest of any midfielder on either side)
86 touches (more than any player in the Wolves side)
73 passes
2 successful tackles
2 successful interceptions
1 clearance

World class on paper as usual.

Fred always comes across well as per the data. It's watching him that you realise that the mistakes he makes weren't brilliant through balls that just missed the mark but finding a team mate two yards away.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

Put cavani as left wingback and you'll have same issue. This is on Ole, any decent manager work with the card he has, you know maximising the output. Will fred be more productive on the pitch with any other tactic combination or manager?

 

[UnRational]

Shouldn’t be near the first team

 

[Litch]

Fred against Wolves:

89% passing accuracy (the highest of any midfielder on either side)
86 touches (more than any player in the Wolves side)
73 passes
2 successful tackles
2 successful interceptions
1 clearance

World class on paper as usual.

Wow. Clearly he's no way as bad as people make out. Fred's biggest problem is he's now being looked at forensically so every mistaken will be highlighted but equally, when he does make them, they tend to be really bad ones!!!!

 

[CloneMC16]

Wow, we really view things differently. I find McTominay to be a limited player who gets loads of plaudits because he works his socks off and has that mythical United 'DNA'.

In reality he's squad material and holds us back as a regular starter due to his inability to influence games against low blocks and teams that hand us possession and they are plenty of those in the season.

His passing is the worst among our CMs and he attempts the least passes per 90 due to his regular resistance to make himself available to receive the ball. Fred on the other hand does not hide from the ball, and we clearly see in equal measure his assets and shortcomings more frequently

Agreed with everything that you said. I never want to see United lose, but I want to watch McTominay be tasked with the job Fred has been asked to do during the past two matches. When he fails, maybe the fans that think he's functional will realise that having a player playing alone in midfield is pretty much impossible.

It's not possible for a guy that has fewer touches, passes, progressive passes, pass completion %, interceptions, pressures, and tackles per 90 to be better than the guy that beats him each of those categories at CDM. The more involved you are in the game, the more likely you are to make a mistake. Fred's mistakes are usually quite bad, though. They're hard to ignore. Our management is still setting up in a way that is exposing our midfield. No CDM would look good in our midfield today.

 

[Litch]

And yet the same arguments get parroted over and over about how Fred gets 'lots of touches' because he 'makes himself available'. That's only a good thing if he does it at the right times and doesn't make mistakes in the process.

The problem is his unreliability both in and out of possession. You can set up tactically around a steady Eddy. But you can't going into a game with a player who you can't predict. That's at the crux of the debate.

Incidentally, Fred also made 0 (zero) errors against Wolves according to the official stats. Because his shortcomings don't always get captured on stats websites, they tend to get glossed over post-game.

Spoiler

All that said, I find it hard to believe that if he was as bad as people make out, the team would be so successful. We aren't carrying him and arguably, he's carried the midfield at times. He's played in some of the biggest games under Ole and rarely let him down. For a player that's suppose to be so poor, all of his best games have been against the best teams in the Prem and Europe. You don't go to City, Chelsea and PSG and play well if you are as you discribe him....

 

[Esquire]

Blind was quite good. As a CDM he played nice simple passes and intercepted without tackling but by reading the game. But then Shaw got injured and he started playing FB, still quite good much better than Young, but as a CB he wasn’t built for that in this league.

If Blind was still around he would def start over Fred.

 

[hobbers]

Hmmmm.....how did we get to 3rd and then 2nd, so many semi's, a final and unbeaten away from home then, if he makes people worse?

How did we finish miles off the top both seasons? How did we get humiliated in last years CL? How did we get dumped out of the EL by Sevilla and Villarreal? How did we get dumped out of the FA cup by a vulnerable Chelsea and Leicester side? How did we only win 2 out of 12 games against the good teams in the league last season?

Do you think he makes the players around him better? Did you like when Fred and AWB were hammering passes at each others' shins vs Southampton? Or when he and Pogba were tripping over each other today? Fred isn't always abysmal, but he has so many games like today where he just looks like a lost terrified toddler and like today it so clearly has a detrimental affect on his team mates.

 

[gajender]

All that said, I find it hard to believe that if he was as bad as people make out, the team would be so successful. We aren't carrying him and arguably, he's carried the midfield at times. He's played in some of the biggest games under Ole and rarely let him down. For a player that's suppose to be so poor, all of his best games have been against the best teams in the Prem and Europe. You don't go to City, Chelsea and PSG and play well if you are as you discribe him....

What exactly have United achieved to be called successful since Fred has been playing regularly we have been irrelevant in Champions League and no proper league Challenge either and against any half decent team we play like underdogs most of the times and just to add our record in big games is nothing to write home about either anymore.

 

[Awesome]

I'm sure someone above has pointed it out but he's not that bad, we've definitely had worse starters, for an entire season we relied on a fat Anderson and Cleverley in midfield just off the top of my head .He was supporting both AWB and Shaw on both wings albeit not too well. He's going through a batch of difficult form but not long ago we were comparing him to Kante. Without a proper CDM, we will have those issues regardless of who we put in midfield.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Fred against Wolves:

89% passing accuracy (the highest of any midfielder on either side)
86 touches (more than any player in the Wolves side)
73 passes
2 successful tackles
2 successful interceptions
1 clearance

World class on paper as usual.

This is why I don't trust stats. He was absolutely rubbish.

We went from Robson, to Ince and Keane, then to Scholes and and Carrick. Now we've got this guy as our undisputed centre midfield mainstay. Shambles.

 

[Red_toad]

The only other one I can think of is maybe Danny Daley Blind. Fred is absolutely completely shit.

Fcuking Fellaini. Completely forgot about him. Sorry Daley.

Do you mean living memory or do you mean your attention span? As they're probably vastly different.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Is there really a need for a thread like this? Let's say the answer to the question is "yes", why would we need a thread? And it's not Fred's fault Fred plays; he doesn't pick himself.

 

[Amadaeus]

Who’s fault was it when he passed straight to a Wolves player twice leading to their best chances?

On the topic of the thread. I’d say he couldn’t be far off the worst to play 100 games for us.

Fred is not the only player in the team. Even though, he made some misplaced pass, so did Pogba, Bruno, and so on. Our build up was awful and wolves played a much attractive brand of football.

Sancho was more anonymous and poorer than Fred and he doesnt get as much criticism.

I'm not one of the Fred bashers, but hes been terrible so far. Him handling the ball like a hot potato is not tactics

Fred wasn’t the only one terrible, the whole team was terrible, barring Greenwood, De Gea, and our Defense was decent. That is more tactical than on one player.

It's both to be fair. He was thrown under the bus by Ole's tactics, but even in that situation a good midfielder shouldn't perform at this level.

Compared to his partner Pogba, I didnt see Fred as that much worse in terms of his performance. As you stated, tactical Fred was thrown under the bus as he had little support in midfield. Fred passing needs improvement, but I believe it is an overreaction from our fans with such sensationalist headline.

 

[harms]

Compared to his partner Pogba, I didnt see Fred as that much worse in terms of his performance. As you stated, tactical Fred was thrown under the bus as he had little support in midfield. Fred passing needs improvement, but I believe it is an overreaction from our fans with such sensationalist headline.

Pogba was very good creative-wise in the second half. Fred didn’t do anything right last night, losing pretty much every duel, struggling to pass accurately even to the nearest partner etc.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Hes being asked to do something that isn't his game. He's a good pressing midfielder. Not top level sure but he's very decent.

We put him in a role to be a holding mid essentially next to Pogba. Which means we have 0 positional awareness.

Tough to say "isn't his game" when a pressing midfielder that isn't creative going forward and can't score goals is his real game.Limits where we can play him, and at this point if he wants to have any utility other than being pressing fodder once we bring in a replacement (we will even if it isn't this summer), he has to add to his game on either side

 

[Bebestation]

Fred makes a mistake pass to the opposition - bunch of fans start crying and pointing fingers at Fred like Lukaku.

Pogba makes mistakes pass to the opposition - same fans does Jack sh*t and look like they never saw it happen.

 

[Strelok]

No I don't agree Fred is shit.

Stupid thread.

Agreed.

Those saying he's crap should wait until he's not available anymore. Same shit happened with McT, lot of fans said he's crap but yesterday showed how vital he's to the current United squad. They should have a look at the stats of PL midfielders last year to appreciate both a little more.

Btw, Pereira is my pick. He was somewhat a regular for us for a short while and he's the worst midfielder I've seen in an United shirt.

 

[Bobcat]

Fred is not the only player in the team. Even though, he made some misplaced pass, so did Pogba, Bruno, and so on. Our build up was awful and wolves played a much attractive brand of football.

Sancho was more anonymous and poorer than Fred and he doesnt get as much criticism.

Fred wasn’t the only one terrible, the whole team was terrible, barring Greenwood, De Gea, and our Defense was decent. That is more tactical than on one player.

Compared to his partner Pogba, I didnt see Fred as that much worse in terms of his performance. As you stated, tactical Fred was thrown under the bus as he had little support in midfield. Fred passing needs improvement, but I believe it is an overreaction from our fans with such sensationalist headline.

The problem was that we, and particularly Fred could not deal with Traore or Trincao at all. And yes, Fred was not the only poor player, Sancho and James were just as bad with Bruno, Pogba, Shaw and AWB not doing much better. Thats not tactics though, thats lack of sharpness which is perfectly understandable this early in the season

One option would be to throw more bodies in MF, but Matic is horrible and McTomminay is not fit

 

[Bebestation]

Tough to say "isn't his game" when a pressing midfielder that isn't creative going forward and can't score goals is his real game.Limits where we can play him, and at this point if he wants to have any utility other than being pressing fodder once we bring in a replacement (we will even if it isn't this summer), he has to add to his game on either side

Disagree - pressing midfielders are always played next to another midfielder with defensive ability.

It's like playing Kante without Jorginho.

Pogba and Fred doesn't work because it has no balance. This is not the first time we seen it because we saw this vs Villareal.

Ole knows it and this is why he doesn't play those two regularly. Right now he has lost Mctominay from the squad and Matic is looking like a shadow of his former self.