Is Jose Mourinho still our best manager post Fergie?

[pocco]

Yes, without a doubt. The squad he had was garbage compared to what we have now. He was looking at bringing Greenwood in and had McTominay playing out of his skin. He wasn't backed and decided to sabotage himself, probably for the payout.

In terms of coaching, LVG actually did a good job in hindsight. His squad was awful, though he should be partly to blame even though he blames Ed for the signings. Don't think we'll ever know the truth.

 

[golden_blunder]

Easy one this.

In terms of results it’s Mourinho but under Ole the squad is better, in a better state and plays better, marginally mind.



LVG for me.The cannon fodder left from his reign far exceeds that from Mourinhos. I think that’s reflected in the fact there’s only two players from his reign who are still anywhere near the first team.
Memphis, Rojo, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Di Maria, Falcao, Schneiderlin all abysmal. The only thing he left was Rashford and maybe Martial.

Yeah you could be right about Lvg but for me Jose left not just a bad squad but a bad morale too, no respect leaking to the press at every opportunity

 

[PoTMS]

Yes, but the bar is very low. Ole would be ahead of him if he managed to win any trophies but unfortunately for us, that's very unlikely. One of these days we'll hire a manager that will be the envy of the world instead of settling for past-its or never-had-its.

 

[Bondi77]

I don’t sink so.

 

[bsCallout]

Ole lost to a second rate Turkish team in the CL when we were in pole position. He then failed to sub Fred off who was on a yellow and had the whole of PSG trying to get him off. And then he setup cowardly against Leipzig and did not react until it was far too late. Hence why were in the Europa League. Our path towards the final was against so so teams, nothing special. At all. All winnable.

I can't remember our path towards the final under Mourinho, but I can't imagine it was "easier" than what we've come up against now.

We lost against Leicester in the semi final of the FA Cup. We lost to Sevilla in the semi finals of Europa last year (who also knocked out Mourinho's United).

I'm not seeing any heroic defeats here for Ole. Just a team that's failed to show up. Not trying to put the boot in or anything, but the lengths people go to shield him from criticism borders on delusion.

Well perhaps you should look at the route, it was much easier under Mouronho. As were the respective groups stages.

Under Ole we lost to all the eventual winners.

Under Ole whilst reaching the final against tougher opponents we also managed to get 2nd not 6th.

Ole lost one game to that second rate Turkish team, perhaps you should check our group results under Mourinho too, against poor teams. Like the loss against Feyernord and the loss against Fenerbache.

 

[justsomebloke]

Mourinhos EL - Second in a group with Fenerbache, Feyenord, Zorya. Then beat St Etienne, Rostov, Anderlecht, Celta Vigo, Ajax.

In his CL group it was Moscow, Basel, Benfica then went out to Sevilla with a draw and a loss.

Comparatively

Oles Europa Run - Beat PSG, Leipzig, Granada, AC Milan, Sociedad, Roma lost to Villarreal.

First season topped the group with AZ, Partizan, Astana then beat Brugge, Lask, Copenhagen. Losing to Sevilla 2-1(in a game we dominated).

In CL beat PSG in the quarters.

Looking at both their runs, Ole has beaten much better teams in Europe including in knockout rounds than Mourinho did.

The draw was very kind to Mourinho as is often the case with winners.

In the FA Cup this season we beat Liverpool and West Ham, going out to the winners. Mourinho beat Brighton & Tottenham to reach his final that he lost to Chelsea.

In Mourinhos first season we finished 6th.
In Oles first full season we finished 4th.
Both got 2nd in their 2nd season.

In Oles first full season we finished third.

And comparatively, after 2 1/2 seasons in charge, Ole is at a point where most would say we have a better chance of actually being contenders next season than at any point since SAF. After 2 1/2 seasons in charge, Mourinho was at a point where not just the team but the whole club was considered by most to be in deep crisis. Frankly, an EL trophy and a CC means precious little at that cost. There is such a thing as negative impact - if you do more damage than you bring gain, your net achievement is less than zero. That's Mourinho, as far as I'm concerned.

The question we should be asking isn't if he's the best manager since SAF, but if appointing him was the worst senior management decision in the last 50 years.

 

[bsCallout]

In Oles first full season we finished third.

And comparatively, after 2 1/2 seasons in charge, Ole is at a point where most would say we have a better chance of actually being contenders next season than at any point since SAF. After 2 1/2 seasons in charge, Mourinho was at a point where not just the team but the whole club was considered by most to be in deep crisis. Frankly, an EL trophy and a CC means precious little at that cost. There is such a thing as negative impact - if you do more damage than you bring gain, your net achievement is less than zero. That's Mourinho, as far as I'm concerned.

The question we should be asking isn't if he's the best manager since SAF, but if appointing him was the worst senior management decision in the last 50 years.

Even when I'm arguing in his favour he managed to do better than what I even come up with. This black & white trophy or not thinking is really quite annoying.

I'm with you, he even undone all LVGs work of trying to bring through young players.

 

[Fanatic 00237]

But nowhere is it saying Europa is the height of ambition. It's fact Mourinho has been a better manager as he has won trophies and Ole hasn't. Both have finished second in the league too.

Mourinho has been the best since Fergie and it's not even a debate if looking at what the achieved in terms of results. Ole is in a better position than Mourinho was but I honestly cannot see Ole matching what Mourinho did with the squad he had

Didn't Ole already do hugely better than Mourinho when he took over from him with exactly the same squad? Squad which was assembled by Mourinho himself over at least four transfer windows.

In Oles first full season we finished third.

And comparatively, after 2 1/2 seasons in charge, Ole is at a point where most would say we have a better chance of actually being contenders next season than at any point since SAF. After 2 1/2 seasons in charge, Mourinho was at a point where not just the team but the whole club was considered by most to be in deep crisis. Frankly, an EL trophy and a CC means precious little at that cost. There is such a thing as negative impact - if you do more damage than you bring gain, your net achievement is less than zero. That's Mourinho, as far as I'm concerned.

The question we should be asking isn't if he's the best manager since SAF, but if appointing him was the worst senior management decision in the last 50 years.

Precisely this!!

 

[Mainoldo]

Ole did Fellaini as an option but chose to move him on asap because he's a terrible footballer.

Yeah or maybe he wasn’t good enough to win cups with him like his predecessors.

 

[theklr]

Yeah, he is if you look at the results. And yes, he did it with a worse squad than we have today.

But still I dont think anyone is in doubt that if Ole left us we would be in a much better condition than when Mou left.

We were never close to the top (CL/PL) under Mourhinho, and if Ole's legacy is no trophies but building a squad that will keep us figthing in the top every year , Ole gets my vote.

He hasnt only made us consistently top 4, he has also changed so much of the club in the background which only he could do.

 

[BorisManUtd]

Winning those 2 trophies under Jose was great but we really did have an easy run in both of those competitions. Under Ole our draws in cup competitions have always been more difficult, though it's clear that we had to beat Villarreal so no excuses for that.

Most important thing under Ole is the fact we finished in top 4 for the first time since Fergie. Not sure if he can now take the team to next level but he's done ok job in these 2,5 years.

 

[Wilt]

81 points and 2 trophies, he’s easily the most ‘successful‘ post SAF

 

[Wilt]

Winning those 2 trophies under Jose was great but we really did have an easy run in both of those competitions. Under Ole our draws in cup competitions have always been more difficult, though it's clear that we had to beat Villarreal so no excuses for that.

Most important thing under Ole is the fact we finished in top 4 for the first time since Fergie. Not sure if he can now take the team to next level but he's done ok job in these 2,5 years.

What are you talking about?

 

[The Firestarter]

What are you talking about?

Probably he meant two seasons in a row.

 

[SER19]

No. He left us near rock bottom with a disjointed squad of unhappy players. If solskjaer was replaced by a top manager tomorrow the set up is infinitely better

 

[AgentSmith]

Mourinho’s short-termism - in which he sacrifices the harmony of the team, his relationship with the squad and directors, and the overall health of the club in favour of the immediate pursuit of success is only ever justified by winning the highest honours. Not by winning the League Cup or the Europa League.

Mourinho’s time at Spurs illustrates he hasn’t learned from the experience at United and just reinforces the idea that he’s a reactive megalomaniac who has been left behind by modern football. The fact that he immediately accepted the job offer from Roma shows he probably knows that on some level as well.

Our football is better now. Our team is better now. Our club is much better now. Ole might not be exactly the right man for the job but he’s sure as shit closer to it than Mourinho. If Ole left today the next manager would be in an infinitely better position, by virtue of his hard-work, than the dreadful mess left behind by Mourinho. Losing a Europa League final doesn’t change that fact.

 

[BorisManUtd]

What are you talking about?

Oh sorry twice in a row I meant, the fact we couldn't manage that until this season says really how poor this whole post-Fergie period has been.

 

[Wilt]

Oh sorry twice in a row I meant, the fact we couldn't manage that until this season says really how poor this whole post-Fergie period has been.

No worries

 

[Random Task]

Yeah or maybe he wasn’t good enough to win cups with him like his predecessors.

I mean, anything we won with Fellaini in the side was done so despite his presence rather than because of it. That's only my opinion though.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Why did you ignore the rest of my post?

Where? I saw you quote a different poster.

I can’t seem to reply to you without being on my phone which i’d assume means I’ve picked up a ban for suggesting Mou has a better record than Ole. Indicative of the state of this forum if so - I’ve not been rude to anyone but apparently we can’t criticise (and point out where any criticism has no basis in fact) the manager because he’s a former player?

Once (if) I get access again I’ll reply in full.

 

[Mainoldo]

I mean, anything we won with Fellaini in the side was done so despite his presence rather than because of it. That's only my opinion though.

Me too. Couldn’t stand him. But to be fair he was effective in the semis and final of a few off the top of my head. Could be wrong. Trying not to think too hard.

 

[sullydnl]

If you put a gun to my head and made me re-hire one of those post-Fergie managers (including Ole) then it absolutely wouldn't be Mourinho. He was the most successful here in terms of winning things but those wins were nowhere near major enough to make up for the toxicity he brought.

 

[bsCallout]

Where? I saw you quote a different poster.

I can’t seem to reply to you without being on my phone which i’d assume means I’ve picked up a ban for suggesting Mou has a better record than Ole. Indicative of the state of this forum if so - I’ve not been rude to anyone but apparently we can’t criticise (and point out where any criticism has no basis in fact) the manager because he’s a former player?

Once (if) I get access again I’ll reply in full.

I qouted my own post which explained my reasoning.

 

[Amir]

I don't care which of our below par managers was better.

 

[bosnian_red]

In terms of setting us up for the next guy, then Ole is for sure as we have a young and very good squad. In terms of achievements ...

Moyes - 1 season, 1 Community shield, 7th place
Van Gaal - 2 seasons, 4th, 5th and an FA Cup
Mourinho - 2.5 seasons, 6th, Community shield, Europa League, League Cup, 2nd, then disaster and left while in 6th
Solskjaer - 2.5 seasons, half season ended 6th, 3rd, 2nd

At the end of the day what is remembered is trophy. Not finishing top 4. So until now, Mourinho performed the best, while Ole has set us up the best long term, except it needs to be capitalized upon.

 

[Random Task]

Where? I saw you quote a different poster.

I can’t seem to reply to you without being on my phone which i’d assume means I’ve picked up a ban for suggesting Mou has a better record than Ole. Indicative of the state of this forum if so - I’ve not been rude to anyone but apparently we can’t criticise (and point out where any criticism has no basis in fact) the manager because he’s a former player?

Once (if) I get access again I’ll reply in full.

You haven't been banned as far as I can see. Your tag line would read "New Member" and you would have received a message telling you about your ban.

I'm speaking from experience here

 

[groovyalbert]

If Jose had been backed after his second season with us the same way he was during his first two summer windows, do you think it would have been different?

It was right to get rid of him, but I think one of the reasons it went south was due to realisation from the board of just how much they had wasted on transfers/were spending on wages. It unsustainable spending against the backdrop of a manager who was demanding further significant investment.

 

[Shark]

Not sure how it'd be even up for debate right now. He won us trophies.

 

[AshRK]

League campaign any day is a better way to judge. For me Ole will leave the squad in a better shape than Jose ever did. So it is a tight one for me. Can't go clearly one way and say one has been better than the other.

 

[Judas]

If trophies = best then you have to feel for Avram Grant coming so close and think just how amazing Di Matteo is.

 

[bsCallout]

Not sure how it'd be even up for debate right now. He won us trophies.

As I asked someone else, does the quality of opposition faced not have any weight?

 

[AshRK]

If Jose had been backed after his second season with us the same way he was during his first two summer windows, do you think it would have been different?

It was right to get rid of him, but I think one of the reasons it went south was due to realisation from the board of just how much they had wasted on transfers/were spending on wages. It unsustainable spending against the backdrop of a manager who was demanding further significant investment.

But for him backing meant signing Willian, Boateng. I feel short term we would have been ok but again it would have led to a disaster ultimately. Ole may not have won any trophies so far but he will leave a better squad to work with for the next manager.

 

[BallonDor99]

LVG was boring, but I think considering where he was in the process he did about as good as Mourinho

 

[AshRK]

Not sure how it'd be even up for debate right now. He won us trophies.

It's not black and white though it is. So you are saying Arteta is a better manager than Pochetino because he won FA cup. For me the mess Jose left us in outweighs the trophies he won. Had Jose been sacked at the end of second season then definitely Jose would have been the best manager since SAF but people it seem forget his third season. We were pretty low. If Ole sabotages his side the coming season then I won't shy away in saying he is as worse as moyes. Context matters

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Mourinho performed the best out of all the managers and underperformed the most relative to his own record.

 

[tomaldinho1]

You haven't been banned as far as I can see. Your tag line would read "New Member" and you would have received a message telling you about your ban.

I'm speaking from experience here

Haha it’s weird. I keep getting a message on anything other than my phone ‘sorry, you are not allowed to access that page’ for all redcaf content

I qouted my own post which explained my reasoning.

I didn’t realise you quoted yourself.

That just reads to me as a list of excuses. You can definitely argue about team quality although this Europa run I really can’t remember teams as bad as Granada and Sociedad - they were horrendous to be in the latter stages but Europa is always full of dross. The fact is, when it mattered, Mou would win. I can point you to a lot (Wolves, Sevilla, Leicester, Villarreal) of knock out games where we were clear favourites, maybe less re Leicester, and came up short under Ole as well.

Look, I hated mou. Never the right fit and horrible football but Ole’s setup isn’t that much better that it’s worth not winning things. We scored 5 more goals this season than Mou but then let in 16 more…it doesn’t stack up.

My biggest gripe with this forum is there is a complete, and it really is shocking, lack of accountability and the expectations on Ole are different. LVG was sacked, Mou was sacked, neither of them got anywhere near the amount of leeway and free passes Ole has had. The guy isn’t even a hands on coach, this is what makes it so baffling.

You are defending someone who basically just tells his inexperienced coaching teams what to do (who are his mates and have not been picked on merit - that’s not an exaggeration and I think is a fair criticism of our coaching team). SAF gave a large part of his adult life to building United and, after winning everything, he became hands off like an overseer. The fact Ole has come in and done nothing as our coach, then moved into that role actually makes me feel sick for the future of this club. The message it sends is worrying.

 

[Andycoleno9]

How is this even a debate? feck me

 

[BaneIsPain]

Technically yes. I hope Ole can surpass him one day.

 

[Judas]

I still find it almost bizarre anyone would look back at that period of time with much fondness. And I was excited for Jose to take over! I'd longed for it, I wanted him to take over from Fergie (probably would have worked out different to be fair) I was always a fan of his, I'm embarrassed by what he caused at Utd, trophies or not.

 

[simonhch]

Predictably pathetic thread in response to a loss on penalties. Even more predictably pathetic responses on the first page or two I could be bothered to actually read.