Is Jose Mourinho still our best manager post Fergie?

[bond19821982]

How is this even a question ? We had 82 points ,highest of any season post Fergie.

Won 2 trophies, against highest of any season we had post Fergie.

Yes, getting rid of him was the right call but doesn't mean we have to undermine his contributions. I liked his tenure and it was a successful stint.

 

[Gonçalo Motta]

Peak wise, Mourinho was without any doubt the best manager we had since Fergie. We finished second while bagging the Europe League and a League Cup with a squad that was worse than the one we have now imo.

But .. his toxic behaviour just makes me wonder if it was even worth it. It's not like he was wrong a lot of the times but the way he handled the Pogba business and him calling out players in public was really annoying.

 

[AgentSmith]

Me too. Couldn’t stand him. But to be fair he was effective in the semis and final of a few off the top of my head. Could be wrong. Trying not to think too hard.

Shouldn’t be too difficult.

Mourinho stuck with him for 2.5 seasons. Solskjaer shifted him in 6 weeks.

Stuck with is an understatement. He actively pushed Fellaini into a pivotal role in the team.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

The answer is yes. Everything else is just noise.

 

[Mainoldo]

Mourinho stuck with him for 2.5 seasons. Solskjaer shifted him in 6 weeks.

Whilst continuing to win nothing and only making subs to win a penalty raffle.

 

[Red_Aaron]

Jose won us trophies

Jimmy Saville raised millions for charity

 

[Zlatan 7]

What is the question? Is Ole a nicer guy than Jose? Yes. Is Ole a better man manager than Jose? Yes. Has Ole got the squad in a better state than Jose did? Yes. Is Ole more likely to bring glory to the club than Jose? Hell fecking no.

I don’t want either, but Jose would’ve won on Wednesday.

The question was who is/was better for us, Manchester United. Not what they had done in the past.

mourhino made following the team a chore and left us in free fall. Ole has done nothing but improve year after year.

I’d say Ole has been best for us as a club

 

[Abraxas]

I agree re the BT coverage. As much as I loved Scholes the player, I feel he is a hypocrite as a pundit. If it were up to him he would have blamed Pogba for the loss. But then you also have to look at the other end, the other media outlets like ESPN, Skysports, talksport are bashing and mocking him. You have reporters like Duncan Castles, Luckhurst, Matt Law question him. Also, it's not just Ole, look at Arteta and how much he is protected in the media, look how lampard was protected by his english buddies. Look how Gerrard is praised to an extent as if he is already better than many managers. Favoritism will be there.

As for Jose if I remember he was supported by all our ex players till his Sevilla rant, that's when the table turned. I remember Scholes and Neville defending Jose over Pogba. Neville was frustrated when Jose was sacked. So Jose did have his backing but what happened after the Sevilla defeat meant hard to defend Jose.

As for redcafe well people will have different opinion but doesn't mean they are defending Ole blindly. Like I said look at the thread after the EL loss, even the die hard OLe in supporters blamed his tactics. So he has not been getting a leeway. But if you want everyone to just be Ole out or say Ole is the worst manager then that's not going to happen. I am on fence with Ole and if he is to be sacked today I won't be surprised ot disappointed but if someone just says Ole has made no progress then I will dispute it and that's where the discontent happens. Like this thread is a big example. People just look at Jose's two trophies but forget his last 6 months. SO it's not black and white on who is better. I feel Ole has done some good job but the question is can we progress to the next level.

I think this is a fair appraisal. I also think there's some weight to the opinion Jose may well have won the game on Wednesday through some tactical intricacies.

I don't think there are actually many "Ole fans" that are as delusional as they are portrayed, I think the flaws and mistakes he showed in that game pretty much symbolised many of the criticisms regarding his squad management and decision making.

I think the people that are particularly venomous regarding the manager like to characterise people who disagree with them as operating out of sense of superiority or delusion as it suits their argument, but it isn't really the truth. I think most that want him to remain know next season is particularly important and it is time to deliver on some of the stabilising he has done. It has never been about worshipping the ground he walks on but having some patience and looking at the entire picture, not just patches of results, or areas of concern, or the trophy cabinet, but the general direction of the club. However, this patience still only lasts so long, the manager has to get to the point now.

 

[Mainoldo]

Boring wum

Just like the gaffer Ay Zlatany

 

[Zlatan 7]

The answer is yes. Everything else is just noise.

Wrong

 

[Pexbo]

Whilst continuing to win nothing and only making subs to win a penalty raffle.

Ole has given the supporters 1000x the enjoyment Mourinho brought and 1000x less misery.

 

[justboy68]

I liked LVG for all his flaws. Think there was potential there, he just hadn't quite put it all together and then it fell apart a bit at the end. He felt much more Manchester United than Jose for me.

With LVG I liked that we were able to dominate possession, give plenty of minutes to youngsters from the academy and we also had a good record in big games iirc. We just really lacked the attacking threat, but maybe he could have gotten that going eventually.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Yes, 2nd with 80+ points, domestic and European trophies.

 

[Fully Fledged]

We made a mistake hiring a short term manager. We should have seen the pattern. Then Ole had a mess to clean up

Exactly. The problem is that the mess is not yet clean. Ole has raised the moral and self worth of our squad since they were reduced to rubble by Jose but the job isn't complete.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Ole has given the supporters 1000x the enjoyment Mourinho brought and 1000x less misery.

It’s this simple

 

[Pexbo]

Trust the PRocess we’re making PRogress. Emphasis on PR.

Glad you added this bit, it’s too subtle and clever and otherwise would have been missed.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

Wrong

nuh-uh

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Definitely.

- Won the Europa League
- Won the League Cup
- Reached FA Cup Final
- Reached Champions League Quarter finals
- 2nd place in Premier League and highest points total
- Despite being more defensive, it took a 9-0 victory over Southampton to score more goals this season (we scored 5 more this season)
- Best defensive record by far

There you go. Close thread.

 

[bsCallout]

You’re acting like AC are the AC of old, same for Roma. Roma were terrible and AC were ok but without Ibra they have no goal threat.

As said Europa is always dross - we should beating all these teams. Ajax in the final we’re probably the ‘best’ if I think about it but I don’t get why you’re being this up unless you are saying Ole should get credit for not winning something because he beat some ‘ok’ teams??

Yes we got knocked out by Bristol in the EFL but, and you might be able to guess what I’ll say here, do you know what we also won under Mou? That’s right, the EFL cup.

Can I just clarify because your logic is so weird. You are saying you’d rather not win anything but be knocked out of comps by mid table teams than win stuff but occasionally go out to a minnow?

Re coaching staff that’s not true. 2 angles to make a measured assessment - previous experience (you don’t need me to tell you this) and what we see on the pitch. Neither looks good. As you say no one can concretely know this for a fact but then that’s what this forum is about - if an opinion has a bit of substance behind it it’s ok for me.

In the same way I get your point about teams we’ve faced and, yes, if you want to argue Ole had a tougher EL run that’s fine with me but I don’t see why bigger picture (when I assume we both want the same thing for United) that would mean much in this debate when one manager, for all his toxicity, has the very trophy Ole just failed to win and another minor domestic trophy on top of that. Plus the best league finish which, when I think of tangible stats, is really the only thing, competition wise, which Ole has done and he’s still behind Mou.

You mean the AC Milan than finished second in the league?

The Roma, Sociedad and Granada that are all better than every team we faced and beat under Mourinho except Ajax.

The point is Ole has beaten better teams in Europe throughout his tenure than Mourinho did and it's not even close.

It isn't black & white, win a cup or not, in judging how well a manager has done.

You challenged whether Mourinhos run was actually easier and it's clearly been proven it was MUCH easier and Ole has beaten much better opposition in Europe and now you are going off on tangents.

 

[Parry Gallister]

Yep, but the football was shit and he couldn't get consecutive top 4 finishes, which probably definitely matters more to the glazers. Prefer Ole and the squad now.

 

[Mainoldo]

Ole has given the supporters 1000x the enjoyment Mourinho brought and 1000x less misery.

They wasn’t miserable at that time. So you have to excuse me. I know because I was and I was getting the same amount of abuse I get know for telling people how it is under Ole.

Maybe when Ole goes we can all pretend we all knew he was sh€te.

 

[elmo]

Honestly, when we signed Jose initially we should have made him sign Ole as his assistant manager and get a bloody director of football in.

Let Jose handle the tactics while Ole manages the players morale.

 

[justsomebloke]

They wasn’t miserable at that time. So you have to excuse me. I know because I was and I was getting the same amount of abuse I get know for telling people how it is under Ole.

Maybe when Ole goes we can all pretend we all knew he was sh€te.

I certainly was miserable at the time. Even when we won.

 

[Sweet Square]

He is the most successful but to call him the best since Fergie under sells the fact he burnt everything down in the last few months and left a complete shit show.

And I say that as someone who always liked his time at United.

 

[justsomebloke]

Honestly, when we signed Jose initially we should have made him sign Ole as his assistant manager and get a bloody director of football in.

Let Jose handle the tactics while Ole manages the players morale.

Sure. Because Jose would have totally stuck to the tactics and not said a word to or about his players.

 

[Zlatan 7]

They wasn’t miserable at that time. So you have to excuse me. I know because I was and I was getting the same amount of abuse I get know for telling people how it is under Ole.

Maybe when Ole goes we can all pretend we all knew he was sh€te.

I was miserable at the time, I remember the thoughts of whether it was football in general, my age or just United that was such a chore to watch but I definitely was not very enthusiastic about where we were, where we were going and the players we had. It was hard watching the matches.

that’s all changed now. Thanks to Ole.

 

[Judas]

I preferred LVG to Jose. LVG's signings were dog shit, but if he'd signed Pogba or a proper creative midfielder and a healthy striker, we'd have been successful, more than Jose was I think. Plus the factor he wasn't a negative misery as a personality helped. The football was dull as feck, but he had a plan, it was just weird he didn't buy the players that would have made it in theory so much better.

 

[AshRK]

I think this is a fair appraisal. I also think there's some weight to the opinion Jose may well have won the game on Wednesday through some tactical intricacies.

I don't think there are actually many "Ole fans" that are as delusional as they are portrayed, I think the flaws and mistakes he showed in that game pretty much symbolised many of the criticisms regarding his squad management and decision making.

I think the people that are particularly venomous regarding the manager like to characterise people who disagree with them as operating out of sense of superiority or delusion as it suits their argument, but it isn't really the truth. I think most that want him to remain know next season is particularly important and it is time to deliver on some of the stabilising he has done. It has never been about worshipping the ground he walks on but having some patience and looking at the entire picture, not just patches of results, or areas of concern, or the trophy cabinet, but the general direction of the club. However, this patience still only lasts so long, the manager has to get to the point now.

Well put. People like to judge things black and white without context. Had we won the Europa even on pens there wouldn't have been this much uproar. Ole made a mess of the game and he deserves to be criticized but truth is under this board he is not going to be sacked for finishing 2nd.

 

[Pexbo]

They wasn’t miserable at that time. So you have to excuse me. I know because I was and I was getting the same amount of abuse I get know for telling people how it is under Ole.

Maybe when Ole goes we can all pretend we all knew he was sh€te.

You’re always miserable. You were just as miserable under Ferguson in his most successful period as a search of your posts revealed a couple of months ago. You’re just a miserable creature that only gets joy from making others miserable.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

Based on results yes. I much prefer us now though without the toxicity and boring football Mourinho gave us.

 

[bsCallout]

Peak wise, Mourinho was without any doubt the best manager we had since Fergie. We finished second while bagging the Europe League and a League Cup with a squad that was worse than the one we have now imo.

But .. his toxic behaviour just makes me wonder if it was even worth it. It's not like he was wrong a lot of the times but the way he handled the Pogba business and him calling out players in public was really annoying.

He didn't finish second whilst bagging those trophies. He finished 6th in that season. He also had an easier run in that Europa than Ole did in even getting to the final.

 

[sugar_kane]

Peak wise, Mourinho was without any doubt the best manager we had since Fergie. We finished second while bagging the Europe League and a League Cup with a squad that was worse than the one we have now imo.

But .. his toxic behaviour just makes me wonder if it was even worth it. It's not like he was wrong a lot of the times but the way he handled the Pogba business and him calling out players in public was really annoying.

I keep seeing this all over the forum... we finished sixth when we won those trophies.

We finished second and won nothing, losing in the FA Cup final to Chelsea in what was a fairly joyless season overall - marred by his falling out with Pogba, Shaw, Rashford, Martial, the fans, the club hierachy, disgracing himself and the club in the post-Sevilla press conference.

Mourinho deserves credit for winning two trophies in his first season, but we regressed under him. With Solskjaer there is clear progress, it's just a shame he hasn't won any silverware yet to back it up.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Difficult one. He spent a fortune and left an absolute mess when he left. Was that really worth one Europa League and League Cup in 2 and half years?

He is however our most successful manager since Ferguson.

 

[The Siege]

Yes he was the best. But he was also somehow the worst.
Highest peak, lowest trough, and the former is not just from a points perspective. Morale, coaching, playing style, he made the squad implode on his way out.

In a hypothetical, I think an LVG to Ole transition to reach our current level would have been quicker than it was from Mourinho. I also think we would have had zero trophies. Jose was a double edged sword, and we really felt both edges.

 

[justsomebloke]

How is this even a question ? We had 82 points ,highest of any season post Fergie.

Won 2 trophies, against highest of any season we had post Fergie.

Yes, getting rid of him was the right call but doesn't mean we have to undermine his contributions. I liked his tenure and it was a successful stint.

No it wasn't - it was a disaster, and should never have happened. Running the club into the ground so thoroughly we're still in the process of recovering from it more than two years later counts for a lot more than a 2nd place finish, a CC and a EL.

Mourinho's task - like LvGs and OGS - was not to win a Europa League. His job, like that of any United manager after Moyes made us and the world realise we were no longer a top club - was to bring United back to being a real PL contender again. That's what matters, not a couple of consolation prices. And relative to that aim, we were much worse off when he left than we were when he joined. That's failure, that is.

 

[bsCallout]

I keep seeing this all over the forum... we finished sixth when we won those trophies.

We finished second and won nothing, losing in the FA Cup final to Chelsea in what was a fairly joyless season overall - marred by his falling out with Pogba, Shaw, Rashford, Martial, the fans, the club hierachy, disgracing himself and the club in the post-Sevilla press conference.

Mourinho deserves credit for winning two trophies in his first season, but we regressed under him. With Solskjaer there is clear progress, it's just a shame he hasn't won any silverware yet to back it up.

Unlike everyone else there is no way I'm giving Mourinho more credit for winning that Europa than Ole for getting to the final based on who they both faced. That Europa win is seen as more impressive than Ole run. Ole played and beat better teams throughout.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Okay lets talk about how Ole is a better manager than Jose. I will highlight one player, Luke Shaw. Under Jose he was clueless and had to be told exactly what to do for him to function as a player. 2 years on he is the best left back in the league and is going with England to the Euros.
Nothing else needs to be said. One manger destroys players to raise his own profile while the other gives players belief in their own self-worth.

 

[GueRed]

I preferred LVG to Jose. LVG's signings were dog shit, but if he'd signed Pogba or a proper creative midfielder and a healthy striker, we'd have been successful, more than Jose was I think. Plus the factor he wasn't a negative misery as a personality helped. The football was dull as feck, but he had a plan, it was just weird he didn't buy the players that would have made it in theory so much better.

I really like Van Gaal's personality but replacing solid performers like Nani, Evans, Keane, Chicharito etc with absolute dogshit is the reason I cant put him ahead of Jose.

 

[FootyGirl88]

I liked LVG for all his flaws. Think there was potential there, he just hadn't quite put it all together and then it fell apart a bit at the end. He felt much more Manchester United than Jose for me.

With LVG I liked that we were able to dominate possession, give plenty of minutes to youngsters from the academy and we also had a good record in big games iirc. We just really lacked the attacking threat, but maybe he could have gotten that going eventually.

I feel the same way, his recruitment let him down in the end unfortunately.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I agree re the BT coverage. As much as I loved Scholes the player, I feel he is a hypocrite as a pundit. If it were up to him he would have blamed Pogba for the loss. But then you also have to look at the other end, the other media outlets like ESPN, Skysports, talksport are bashing and mocking him. You have reporters like Duncan Castles, Luckhurst, Matt Law question him. Also, it's not just Ole, look at Arteta and how much he is protected in the media, look how lampard was protected by his english buddies. Look how Gerrard is praised to an extent as if he is already better than many managers. Favoritism will be there.

As for Jose if I remember he was supported by all our ex players till his Sevilla rant, that's when the table turned. I remember Scholes and Neville defending Jose over Pogba. Neville was frustrated when Jose was sacked. So Jose did have his backing but what happened after the Sevilla defeat meant hard to defend Jose.

As for redcafe well people will have different opinion but doesn't mean they are defending Ole blindly. Like I said look at the thread after the EL loss, even the die hard OLe in supporters blamed his tactics. So he has not been getting a leeway. But if you want everyone to just be Ole out or say Ole is the worst manager then that's not going to happen. I am on fence with Ole and if he is to be sacked today I won't be surprised ot disappointed but if someone just says Ole has made no progress then I will dispute it and that's where the discontent happens. Like this thread is a big example. People just look at Jose's two trophies but forget his last 6 months. SO it's not black and white on who is better. I feel Ole has done some good job but the question is can we progress to the next level.

No one forgets Jose’s last sixth months, he’d checked out and was awful to watch. In the same way no one really criticises Ole for his first six where we completely imploded after he signed as manager.

Agree re Scholes. Incredible player but not a great pundit. After how Scholes went after LVG it really was karma after Scholes quit Oldham and LVG gave that interview ‘Scholes was a manager too, yes? Fantastic. Fantastic’.

At no point have I said a Ole is terrible and I fully expect people to have different opinions but the counter arguments seem very ropey.

It would actually be refreshing for some of the Ole inners to just say ‘you know what, yes, Mou still has the best record and Ole has been disappointing for me in all cup comps but I’m willing to accept my disappointment and I think there’s a long term path here’ but it’s never like that. There’s always some tenuous reason why Ole is actually misunderstood and the stats actually aren’t what they seem and the progress is there for all to see. At the end of the day

I’ve defended Ole on here versus some of the posters who clearly just want him out no matter what he does but I’m now just unable to see any compelling reason why there wouldn’t be a better option out there. He came in and did a solid job, calmed the Mou circus down and we’re CL again but it is important that’s not the goal - as you say ‘the next level’.