Writing stuff like that is the forum equivalent of a loose lateral pass in the direction of two charging attackers, you know.
Is Jose Mourinho still our best manager post Fergie?
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No not really. He spent quite a lot and was sacked when he went into meltdown. I think obviously Moyes was the worst, but I'd say I don't have the feeling with Ole that everything will come crashing down. It's obviously a failure of Ole that we havn't won a trophy yet, but I still feel for a club of our stature that it's the league and the CL that carries weight. Arsenal used to finish top 4 and frequently win the Fa cup, but you never really felt they were going any where. All our manager post Fergie have failed to make a title challenge.
Trophies can be an ego thing
I hated Jose towards the end. He was a twat.
But yes he is our most successful manager post Ferguson.
And as things stand Ole is our least. Well Moyes as well but he didn't have a full season.
I'm not saying sack Ole but I'd have him in his last 12 months. Back him to the hilt this summer and see where we land.
Renew if we win a trophy or actually go toe to toe for the title.
A repeat of this season and you'd have to call it a day.
But yes he is our most successful manager post Ferguson.
And as things stand Ole is our least. Well Moyes as well but he didn't have a full season.
I'm not saying sack Ole but I'd have him in his last 12 months. Back him to the hilt this summer and see where we land.
Renew if we win a trophy or actually go toe to toe for the title.
A repeat of this season and you'd have to call it a day.
Where are you getting this from. Unless you are living under a rock, Ole has been mocked, trolled ever since he took over the job. Have you see this forum itself, even Ole supporters have criticised his game management after the game. Most of the media outlet are just bashing him left right and centre to the point I feel as if we have been relelgated. I have not seen any one blindly defending Ole since the defeat. The reason he receives less criticism than Jose is because he doesn't put his players under the bus. He openly after the game said this season is a failure unlike Jose who said finishing 2nd was his biggest achievement. These things matter.
As for Ole not being sacked well that is the job of board not us fans. We have a board who is happy finishing top 4 so can't blame the fans for that.
1. What, Real Sociedad and Granada are worse than St. Etienne, Rostov and Anderlecht?
2. And none of them finished 3rd and 2nd in consecutive seasons, or built a team widely considered to be closer to challenging for a title than we've been since SAF.
3. Sorry, but you don't know anything that enables you to say what you're saying in the last paragraph.
He and Ole are about equal for me, both had two 6/10 seasons. Ole was on course to edge it this season with a win against Villareal, but the god awful way in which we lost that game means that this season can only really be viewed as par for the course.
Looking at the two teams overall, I'd say Jose's team was more solid and consistent, while Ole's team has had higher highs and lower lows - on balance though I wouldn't say one is better than the other.
The only thing that may slightly swing the pendulum in Ole's favour is the squad that he's built, which seems set to kick on over the next few years with the talent we've amassed, whereas Jose's squad only ever looked like it had a short lifespan. What will be important from next season is seeing this coaching setup maximising on the potential the squad has. A trophy and a title challenge ends this debate pretty simply.
Looking at the two teams overall, I'd say Jose's team was more solid and consistent, while Ole's team has had higher highs and lower lows - on balance though I wouldn't say one is better than the other.
The only thing that may slightly swing the pendulum in Ole's favour is the squad that he's built, which seems set to kick on over the next few years with the talent we've amassed, whereas Jose's squad only ever looked like it had a short lifespan. What will be important from next season is seeing this coaching setup maximising on the potential the squad has. A trophy and a title challenge ends this debate pretty simply.
If the ultimate goal was to win and sustainably challenge for the games top prizes then no. His signings set us back years in doing that (Bailly, Lindelof, Fred, Mikhitarian, Lukaku and Sanchez all arguably not good enough to make up a consistently challenging side) - he left us further away from doing it than when he joined - and he was a toxic shit cnut to boot.
I'm sorry but it's not even close. The second best team we faced were Celta Vigo in that Mourinho campaign. Do you know where they finished in La Liga that season? 13th. This season Sociedad are 5th and Granada 9th.
That's before we even get onto Roma, AC Milan and our wins in the CL.
Under Mourinho we lost to Feyernord and Fenerbache in that campaign.
Yes we lost to Sevilla undr Ole in the Semi but do you know who else lost to Sevilla? Mourinho in the last 16, and if you want to look at the group we only got through because we beat young boys twice and a good win against Juve. We couldnt beat Valencia.
You refer to the teams we got knocked out by in comps too, We got knocked out by Bristol & Derby under Mourinho.
You have no idea how good our coaching staff are, you just decided to assume they are not good. But that's going off topic.
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I mean did you even watch the EL final coverage. He’s the most protected manager we’ve had from the media - just watch the pundits posts game. The big voices of the football media are G Nev (mate) the BT trio of Rio, Scholes (mates) and Hargreaves whose rarely critical of anyone. Carragher does call him out but then G Nev is always there to defend him. LVG was called out every game, Mou was turned on by the class of 92 almost unanimously. It’s a very cliquey setup right now across Sky/BT.
Redcaf is probably the most representative thing out there for seeing what fans in general are thinking because there aren’t those awkward personal allegiances. The fact there is a large swathe of discontent on here isn’t because people like to watch our club not win trophies and moan, it’s because it is so painfully obvious that we’re driving down a dead end road if the goal is the PL and CL.
Agree re Glazers but, for me, there’s a very different narrative around Ole and his never ending rebuild versus his predecessors.
Boring wum
It's not just about a couple of trophies, especially when they're not the major ones. You can't just blindly say the ends justified the means because of those trophies, if it's the CL perhaps, but the fact is we were a penalty shootout away from a minor trophy with Ole. Has Ole done a superb job if we win a penalty shootout...of course not! I would hope that the club itself has far greater vision to see beyond the patently obvious than some fans.
Jose spent a load of money that by all accounts had massive financial repurcussions. He bought us very expensive to maintain assets that were as miserable at the club as he appeared to be. When he left we were at a very low ebb as a club, with numerous players out of the fold and we were heading downwards in quite a comprehensive way, not just in terms of results. The football was dire. Ole's needs some work but Mourinho was particularly bad, a fairly soulless style without many redeeming features when we lost, a theme that continued into his tenure at Tottenham.
The sum total of Jose's work at the club left us needing to get players off the books, restore a catastrophic morale and spend a whole season recovering just to move forward again. By no means was it justified because of those trophies. If Ole left tomorrow I honestly believe the next manager would have a platform to succeed. That is really important to how I look at these managers, we are not talking about unqualified success stories that won everything and left a slightly aging squad behind that needs renewing. The job itself was to rebuild the club.
If you look at the current position compared to José, we have numerous key players bought by Ole that want to be here and perform. We have a whole host of youth products around the first team. We have a morale to come back and win games. Yes we are short in some areas of our play and in some positions but I honestly don't think any manager could complain about walking into this situation with the summer budget to come.
Jose spent a load of money that by all accounts had massive financial repurcussions. He bought us very expensive to maintain assets that were as miserable at the club as he appeared to be. When he left we were at a very low ebb as a club, with numerous players out of the fold and we were heading downwards in quite a comprehensive way, not just in terms of results. The football was dire. Ole's needs some work but Mourinho was particularly bad, a fairly soulless style without many redeeming features when we lost, a theme that continued into his tenure at Tottenham.
The sum total of Jose's work at the club left us needing to get players off the books, restore a catastrophic morale and spend a whole season recovering just to move forward again. By no means was it justified because of those trophies. If Ole left tomorrow I honestly believe the next manager would have a platform to succeed. That is really important to how I look at these managers, we are not talking about unqualified success stories that won everything and left a slightly aging squad behind that needs renewing. The job itself was to rebuild the club.
If you look at the current position compared to José, we have numerous key players bought by Ole that want to be here and perform. We have a whole host of youth products around the first team. We have a morale to come back and win games. Yes we are short in some areas of our play and in some positions but I honestly don't think any manager could complain about walking into this situation with the summer budget to come.
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that’s a load of shit or there’d be a few posters long gone with that mainoldo leading the way
On the contrary, I think it's pretty clear that Ole gets a much rawer deal than he deserves in the media. Which is probably why some of them (Daily Telegraph) has even gone to the lengths of issuing a written apology. Just look at Jonathan Wilson's consistent bullshit in the Guardian.
Just another thinly veiled ole out thread in a long line of thinly veiled threads.
They're all coming out of the woodwork, daggers drawn and sharpened.
It really is quite pathetic.
I await the ' not as pathetic blah blah blah' responses.
No, he won 2 trophies. Both in a season where he performed disastrously in the league. Van Gaal won the FA cup and finished 5th. No manager has won anything with us while sustaining a top 4 finish.
You need a big squad to compete in both the league and the cups at the same time, unfortunately we do not have that and it is clear Ole has been focusing on sustaining good league positions, which he has achieved.
Hopefully he gets backed this summer and can compete on all fronts.
You need a big squad to compete in both the league and the cups at the same time, unfortunately we do not have that and it is clear Ole has been focusing on sustaining good league positions, which he has achieved.
Hopefully he gets backed this summer and can compete on all fronts.
About equal with Ole right now I reckon.
Statistics
Mourinho
Played - 144
Won - 84
Drew - 32
Lost - 28
Goals - 244
Against - 121
Level of toxicity in the air surrounding old Trafford - 95%
Ole
Played - 151
Won - 84
Drew - 34
Lost - 33
Goals - 280
Against - 151
Level of toxicity in the air surrounding Old Trafford - 10%
Mourinho
Played - 144
Won - 84
Drew - 32
Lost - 28
Goals - 244
Against - 121
Level of toxicity in the air surrounding old Trafford - 95%
Ole
Played - 151
Won - 84
Drew - 34
Lost - 33
Goals - 280
Against - 151
Level of toxicity in the air surrounding Old Trafford - 10%
I think Jose’s last few games raised the toxicity by 50%
Is it really that controversial to say the former Real Madrid, Inter Milan & Chelsea manager is better then the former Cardiff City & Molde manager?
Ole was never even qualified to get the United job.
Ole was never even qualified to get the United job.
Absolutely not, he has won more trophies that's a fact you cant deny, but he took the club in a direction where they were making expensive short terms signings to try and gain ground on City without a building process.
Going by the rate he was spending (wasting) money on certain profile of player, we would have to spend at least £250m every other year just to keep that standard up. For a club with Utd's level of debt to service, this was unsustainable. Moyes was out of his depth literally. LVG made some fundamental errors in recruitment, particularly with certain players he let go, and his style of play at times was tedious.
Ole is clearly not the most experienced manager, I hoped that with Mick Phelan with him, it would have been a winning combination, and so far it hasn't been, but I dont think you can argue that the club and squad is in not in a better place now, than before he took over. The profile of player he has recruited has drastically improved, and you do feel the players want to do well for him, which is half the battle nowadays, with them having so much power and influence. OGS is still the man for next season, but the club need to kick on now, the lull since SAF retired has been been too long and too expensive for the people at the top not to be questioned and that includes Ole.
Going by the rate he was spending (wasting) money on certain profile of player, we would have to spend at least £250m every other year just to keep that standard up. For a club with Utd's level of debt to service, this was unsustainable. Moyes was out of his depth literally. LVG made some fundamental errors in recruitment, particularly with certain players he let go, and his style of play at times was tedious.
Ole is clearly not the most experienced manager, I hoped that with Mick Phelan with him, it would have been a winning combination, and so far it hasn't been, but I dont think you can argue that the club and squad is in not in a better place now, than before he took over. The profile of player he has recruited has drastically improved, and you do feel the players want to do well for him, which is half the battle nowadays, with them having so much power and influence. OGS is still the man for next season, but the club need to kick on now, the lull since SAF retired has been been too long and too expensive for the people at the top not to be questioned and that includes Ole.
Boring
Trust the PRocess we’re making PRogress. Emphasis on PR.
feck me this place has really gone full idiot after the loss in the final. Sack everyone, sell everyone, hire Jose and have the Glazers as assistant managers.
The question was our best, not the best. Guess you enjoyed our time under mourhino more, which is fair enough if that’s your opinion.
I haven’t enjoyed our style of football since about 2011. But if we’re not going to play good football, then at least win some trophies.
Ole probably plays the best football since Fergie, but it’s still dull the majority of the time. The bar is low.
Nope,Ole is comfortably the best manager that we”ve had since SAF.In terms of quality of performances,player recruitment,maintaining squad balance etc Ole has been the best so far.Is he good enough to lead us to the promised land?I”m still not sure....But he certainly deserves to be backed wholeheartedly by the owners this summer...
This summer transfer window will define Oles future at the club...
This summer transfer window will define Oles future at the club...
That’s not the question
Boring
At getting results yes. I think Solskjaer has definitely done a better job at building a better team. Unfortunately, I don’t think the results or many of the performances are reflecting the fact we’ve a better team. Which is a problem for a football manager. We’re in a healthier position for a new manager to take over I think. All our managers have been hamstrung by the ineptness above them.
You’re acting like AC are the AC of old, same for Roma. Roma were terrible and AC were ok but without Ibra they have no goal threat.
As said Europa is always dross - we should beating all these teams. Ajax in the final we’re probably the ‘best’ if I think about it but I don’t get why you’re being this up unless you are saying Ole should get credit for not winning something because he beat some ‘ok’ teams??
Yes we got knocked out by Bristol in the EFL but, and you might be able to guess what I’ll say here, do you know what we also won under Mou? That’s right, the EFL cup.
Can I just clarify because your logic is so weird. You are saying you’d rather not win anything but be knocked out of comps by mid table teams than win stuff but occasionally go out to a minnow?
Re coaching staff that’s not true. 2 angles to make a measured assessment - previous experience (you don’t need me to tell you this) and what we see on the pitch. Neither looks good. As you say no one can concretely know this for a fact but then that’s what this forum is about - if an opinion has a bit of substance behind it it’s ok for me.
In the same way I get your point about teams we’ve faced and, yes, if you want to argue Ole had a tougher EL run that’s fine with me but I don’t see why bigger picture (when I assume we both want the same thing for United) that would mean much in this debate when one manager, for all his toxicity, has the very trophy Ole just failed to win and another minor domestic trophy on top of that. Plus the best league finish which, when I think of tangible stats, is really the only thing, competition wise, which Ole has done and he’s still behind Mou.
Jose was a spoiled man-baby. A diva, a self-obsessed drama queen who never stopped whinging, and who did a lot of damage and caused a lot of trouble. He bought some of the biggest names in the game, yet couldn't get the best out of them. The body language from the players was that there was no team unity and a toxic environment.
Ole could easily have demanded 100 million for Richarlison, offered him 400,000 a week just to make sure he signs, as opposed to developing Greenwood instead. That's the Jose way - Paying a player double their true worth, just to get the deal done, while ignoring the talented youth at the club.
Ole inherited a lot of expensive flops, and realized his hands were tied, that he had to make do with the players at his disposal unless someone offered big money for them. He hasn't had even close to the spending power Jose had.
If I had a choice, a bloke to develop Diallo, Garner, Greenwood, Mejbri... Or a bloke who will dump the kids on the bench while spending half a billion on ageing players like Matic, Alexis... to play shit football but win a Europa League, I know what I'd choose.
Ole could easily have demanded 100 million for Richarlison, offered him 400,000 a week just to make sure he signs, as opposed to developing Greenwood instead. That's the Jose way - Paying a player double their true worth, just to get the deal done, while ignoring the talented youth at the club.
Ole inherited a lot of expensive flops, and realized his hands were tied, that he had to make do with the players at his disposal unless someone offered big money for them. He hasn't had even close to the spending power Jose had.
If I had a choice, a bloke to develop Diallo, Garner, Greenwood, Mejbri... Or a bloke who will dump the kids on the bench while spending half a billion on ageing players like Matic, Alexis... to play shit football but win a Europa League, I know what I'd choose.
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Grumpy headmaster that used to be the best teacher at school vs a very nice PE teacher who knows the school inside out and everybody loves him.
God I haven't missed this place.
What is the question? Is Ole a nicer guy than Jose? Yes. Is Ole a better man manager than Jose? Yes. Has Ole got the squad in a better state than Jose did? Yes. Is Ole more likely to bring glory to the club than Jose? Hell fecking no.
I don’t want either, but Jose would’ve won on Wednesday.
I can’t argue versus selective memories. Ole gets part of the media against him, LVG and Mou had both barrels. Do you not remember the pressers? LVG called people out on it for his ‘sacking’ that didn’t happen and Mou seemed to get it every week. Ole isn’t exempt from criticism but Sky/BT who are a large part of football in this country walk on eggshells when it comes to criticising him.
I agree re the BT coverage. As much as I loved Scholes the player, I feel he is a hypocrite as a pundit. If it were up to him he would have blamed Pogba for the loss. But then you also have to look at the other end, the other media outlets like ESPN, Skysports, talksport are bashing and mocking him. You have reporters like Duncan Castles, Luckhurst, Matt Law question him. Also, it's not just Ole, look at Arteta and how much he is protected in the media, look how lampard was protected by his english buddies. Look how Gerrard is praised to an extent as if he is already better than many managers. Favoritism will be there.
As for Jose if I remember he was supported by all our ex players till his Sevilla rant, that's when the table turned. I remember Scholes and Neville defending Jose over Pogba. Neville was frustrated when Jose was sacked. So Jose did have his backing but what happened after the Sevilla defeat meant hard to defend Jose.
As for redcafe well people will have different opinion but doesn't mean they are defending Ole blindly. Like I said look at the thread after the EL loss, even the die hard OLe in supporters blamed his tactics. So he has not been getting a leeway. But if you want everyone to just be Ole out or say Ole is the worst manager then that's not going to happen. I am on fence with Ole and if he is to be sacked today I won't be surprised ot disappointed but if someone just says Ole has made no progress then I will dispute it and that's where the discontent happens. Like this thread is a big example. People just look at Jose's two trophies but forget his last 6 months. SO it's not black and white on who is better. I feel Ole has done some good job but the question is can we progress to the next level.
Well under Jose we wouldn't have been playing the final. The guy couldn;t even get past Zagreb, what makes you think we would have beaten Milan. Let us not forget we played like an underdog against Celta vigo and were fortunate to even proceed to the finals.
Mourinho stuck with him for 2.5 seasons. Solskjaer shifted him in 6 weeks.
We were treading water and getting more and more out of control with spending and deadwood. He didn’t really want to be reliant on Martial Pogba and Rashford. Maybe he was right. We probably need more aggression and creatively to win anything big but you still don’t call everyone out in public. Jose is a crap man manager but i feel Ole is probably too nice. I still have faith in Ole but it’s being tested big time.
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