Is our British scout network good enough?

[redwhiteblack]

Not a rhetorical question.

Was out earlier and was chatting with a mate (gooner) about the best young British players/future of the England team etc. He said that he thinks the Utd scouting network in Britain lets the club down. He said it surprises him that of all the brightest stars of the present/future - Wilshere, Rodwell, Bale, Ramsay, Carroll etc - none have ended up at United.

It was a good conversation, and I think he does have a point, but I'm not sure if I totally understand the scouting system enough to start pointing the finger.

What do you think? Is our scouting network in Britain missing out too often on great young British players recently? Or is there more to it than that?

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

What do you think? Is our scouting network in Britain missing out too often on great young British players recently? Or is there more to it than that?

Its because of the rule that young home players cannot sign for a club that are more than 90 minutes away from their home.

So we can't get the best young players in London for example anymore like we did with Beckham. Even if we identify them we can't sign them.

 

[Excal]

Possibly also Sir Alex doesn't particularly give a toss whether a player is British or not? We're not exactly bereft of great young talent.

 

[Snow]

Its because of the rule that young home players cannot sign for a club that are more than 90 minutes away from their home.

So we can't get the best young players in London anymore like we did with Beckham.

Answer ^

 

[Pexbo]

The problem is that if a good player pops up, every top club will know about him. Look at the prices they carry aswell, all £5m+. Most of them were ready for first team football in the premier league at very young ages. While we could have offered them first team appearances, nothing like the 30 or so a season their current could offer.

You could argue Arsenal take better risks because they can offer these young players first team football but there is the counter argument that it's won them feck all in recent years.

So in short, it's not our Scouting system, it's the expectation of first team football that has not given us the edge in signing them.

 

[x42bn6]

Well, Bale and Ramsey were easy to "scout" - we just missed out on them. Wilshere's been at Arsenal since he was a kid, too. Rodwell was with Everton as a kid.

It's not like a lack of a scouting network means we need to hoover up all the talent, though - nor does it mean that we can go up to any youngster and easily uproot him like in Football Manager.

 

[Brwned]

We were in for Bale and Ramsey, Wilshire and Rodwell are restricted by the 90-min rule...and Caroll's not really on the same level as them or someone we should feel bad about missing out on I don't think (not sure he's even more talented than Welbeck, for example).

 

[mjs020294]

Not sure what Bale as to do with this debate, Spurs bought him from Southampton.

 

[Neutral]

Your mate would be right..IF United were clueless to the talents of some of the players mentioned. The Welsh duo, as others have said...United bid for and were in serious contention for, but ultimately failed to sign(for multiple reasons).

Wilshere has been at Arsenal for a long time, Rodwell has been with Everton from the of 7. We have a couple of youngsters in Cleverley and Welbeck who look good and are playing regularly in the PL.

Not to mention, there are tons of United products plying their trade in the PL.

 

[redwhiteblack]

Not sure what Bale as to do with this debate, Spurs bought him from Southampton.

Why didn't we?

 

[mjs020294]

Why didn't we?

Because he chose Spurs

United's scouting network is one of the most expansive around.

 

[Jiggs'Hamstring]

Because he chose Spurs

United's scouting network is one of the most expansive around.

He either chose Spurs, or Fergie had one of his funny turns where he thinks players aren't worth pittance. I was never quite sure.

Ramsey though, he definitely just chose Arsenal

 

[x42bn6]

We were outbid by Spurs.

http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={B4CEE8FA-9A47-47BC-B069-3F7A2F35DB70}&newsid=398316

 

[mjs020294]

He either chose Spurs, or Fergie had one of his funny turns where he thinks players aren't worth pittance. I was never quite sure.
=

United and Spurs both had offers accepted by Southampton. He chose Spurs.

 

[Jiggs'Hamstring]

United and Spurs both had offers accepted by Southampton. He chose Spurs.

Fair enough.


Spaz.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I think we have done pretty well, consider we have got Evans, Gibson, Cleverley, Wellbeck and Smalling. We just can't have everyone there.

 

[mjs020294]

I think we have done pretty well, consider we have got Evans, Gibson, Cleverley, Wellbeck and Smalling. We just can't have everyone there.

Bingo!


Lots of factors determine where a kid plays, and the 90-mile rule is huge these days.

 

[AVARiCE]

Its because of the rule that young home players cannot sign for a club that are more than 90 minutes away from their home.

So we can't get the best young players in London for example anymore like we did with Beckham. Even if we identify them we can't sign them.

Yeah, this basically sums up my feelings towards the whole thing.

To continue the point, how many players born within minutes of Carrington have become good players? Looking at City I think that Richards is overrated, Onouha is decent but injury-prone, Ireland we missed out on and Johnson's fat and injury-prone. Sturridge is another one you could possibly argue we missed out on but Welbeck's much better.

I mean, given that we can only recruit from within a certain area which includes other clubs, if the other clubs aren't producing talent then the problem's clearly the pool of players, not the club.

 

[buckooo1978]

if you look at the talent in the north west and yorkshire over the last 20 years the 90 minute rule shouldn't hurt united - some great players.....

i think our young players look excellent to be honest although most come from abroad

 

[AVARiCE]

if you look at the talent in the north west and yorkshire over the last 20 years the 90 minute rule shouldn't hurt united - some great players.....

i think our young players look excellent to be honest although most come from abroad

OP was asking about recently, specifically the future of the England team, so I stuck with that.

However, if you do go back 20 years (excluding the famous era) we do tend to have the best kids in the area. Recently they just haven't been that good.

 

[Sultan]

90 minute rule is a farce and can be easily manipulated.

Some kids look fantastic when young but do not progress as expected for various reasons. One of the most difficult jobs in football is scouting young talent.

We've not done badly actually. Most players coming through the United academy end up having very good professional careers.

 

[Untied]

90 minute rule is a farce and can be easily manipulated.

Some kids look fantastic when young but do not progress as expected for various reasons. One of the most difficult jobs in football is scouting young talent.

We've not done badly actually. Most players coming through the United academy end up having very good professional careers.

It's even more ridiculous given the number of sides in the North-West.

 

[Ringo 07]

I think we are gonna struggle even more now to get the best English talent that we can pick from within 90 minutes considering Man City will be throwing mega contracts at all the best young 14 years olds in and around Manchester!

 

[Sultan]

The 90 minute rule can easily be manipulated by moving the kids families address within the catchment area allowed. Plenty people do that to get kids into schools of choice.

 

[datura]

This article is probably still relevant

Manchester United claim youth system in English football must change to better the next generation - Football - Telegraph

 

[datura]

Re Andy Carroll:


It turns out that Brian Waites was the man who gave Andy Carroll his first chance in football, when Brian was manager of Cleveland Hall Boys Club – which became Low Fell Juniors.

Andy joined the club at the under-10 level back in 1998, when Andy was just 9 (and 6’1″?), and Carroll was tracked by Manchester United at that time.

Waites is now vice-chairman of Gateshead Football Club, and he spoke at length to the local Evening Chronicle today about Andy’s history:

“Andy came along to our trials in 1998 the night after we had already chosen the squad for the new season.” “His dad brought him, along with his cousin, so we let them join in the training session.”

“I just took one look at him and knew Andy was a special talent and signed him straight away.” “He played in a successful team and was soon courted by five or six clubs.”

“A lot of people don’t know that Andy was at the Manchester United school of excellence when he was younger.” “He went there once a week but Man United closed down their Durham operation – and then my phone was red hot.”

“He had the pick of all the local clubs including Newcastle, Sunderland and Middlesbrough.” “But he went to Newcastle at about the age of 11.” “There is a myth that he played in defense for us but he never did. (note: he played left back for Newcastle Juniors for one season when there were lots of injuries and they were short of a left back and Andy was left footed …..)

“He played left midfield and scored 68 goals when we won the title in a tough division which included Wallsend Boys Club and Whitley Bay.” “I’ve still got all of the stats, and that was one hell of a feat.”

“He was unstoppable for us.” “I think when he went to Newcastle he then played in some defensive positions, as they try to manufacture a different position with younger players.”

“He is a shining light for all of the youngsters in the junior teams and he comes back to present trophies at every presentation night we have.” “That’s special for the youngsters and a really big thrill for them.”

“Andy is a hero to them as Alan Shearer used to be to people of his age.” “He means a lot to Gateshead and everybody at Low Fell is delighted at his development.”

“To see him in the England team now is brilliant for us as it means so much.”

 

[Striker10]

We do have good young English talent, we're just not in a position to play them. Tunnlicliffe,Morrison, Cofie maybe one or two others. In their own right they just need the stage to get games and build a foundation. We've Tom Cleverly coming back who is an exciting prospect but we have been hampered.

That said, we've got talent from abroad that's very good. I think the mixture is healthy and as good as these kids look outside our club, it's still early days for them. Lets see where they are in 3 years time

 

[Fiskey]

Imo Welbeck, Smalling and Morrison all deserve to be mentioned alongside those in the op.

 

[Rowem]

Not a rhetorical question.

Was out earlier and was chatting with a mate (gooner) about the best young British players/future of the England team etc. He said that he thinks the Utd scouting network in Britain lets the club down. He said it surprises him that of all the brightest stars of the present/future - Wilshere, Rodwell, Bale, Ramsay, Carroll etc - none have ended up at United.

It was a good conversation, and I think he does have a point, but I'm not sure if I totally understand the scouting system enough to start pointing the finger.

What do you think? Is our scouting network in Britain missing out too often on great young British players recently? Or is there more to it than that?

 

[Ekeke]

Welbeck, Cleverley and Smalling are all likely to be around the England team in the next 5 years. Thats more than most teams can suggest with regards to their young English players.

Whether or not they'll make the step up and become first teamers we'll have to wait and see, but at this point I can only see injury stopping any of them becoming regular England squad members.

 

[Decotron]

Mujac posted a rather epic post on this recently......i'll have a gander for it

 

[Raees]

This article is probably still relevant

Manchester United claim youth system in English football must change to better the next generation - Football - Telegraph

Thankless task these days. Alot relying on luck rather than quality of scouting staff.

 

[8thWonder]

Not a rhetorical question.

Was out earlier and was chatting with a mate (gooner) about the best young British players/future of the England team etc. He said that he thinks the Utd scouting network in Britain lets the club down. He said it surprises him that of all the brightest stars of the present/future - Wilshere, Rodwell, Bale, Ramsay, Carroll etc - none have ended up at United.

It was a good conversation, and I think he does have a point, but I'm not sure if I totally understand the scouting system enough to start pointing the finger.

What do you think? Is our scouting network in Britain missing out too often on great young British players recently? Or is there more to it than that?

Present as well?

----------Amos----------
Neville-Brown-Rio-O'Shea
Fletcher-Carrick-Scholes-Giggs
--------Rooney--Owen------

Gibson
Hargreaves
Smalling
Evans
Cleverley
Morrison
Welbeck

The ones highlighted are the ones with big futures here. Just because they havn't made waves in the media yet doesn't mean their not some of the best youngsters in the country, remember journo's know absolutely nothing about football in the main, i'm pretty confident they'll all play reguarly for their respective country's. I love how Arsenal fans are getting all high and mighty about their british future now and how they will be the spine of england for years, we've been doing it for decades and continue to do so.

 

[I_live_cement]

How do people not know that we were in for Bale and Ramsey?

Are you guys even United fans?

 

[WireRed]

A lot of people have touched on the 90 minute nonsense implemented by the FA, and it's a big reason why the local talent coming through has dried up in the PL era and partly responsible for club's scouting/poaching from foreign academies these days.

 

[Fearless]

A lot of people have touched on the 90 minute nonsense implemented by the FA, and it's a big reason why the local talent coming through has dried up in the PL era and partly responsible for club's scouting/poaching from foreign academies these days.

Why is it a nonsense?

Can you really expect U9's to U15's to travel three nights a week, neglecting their school work, getting stuck with a big mac in a traffic jam for an hour both ways?

It is a shyte system but 'local' kids/parents already in the academy sacrifice more than you can possibly imagine as it is.

 

[cj_sparky]

This article is probably still relevant

Manchester United claim youth system in English football must change to better the next generation - Football - Telegraph

I'll be amazed if the boarding school idea discussed in that article isn't implemented in some form by clubs. Seems a natural step, you could have players assigned to the school as opposed to the club.

 

[Ubik]

Why is it a nonsense?

Can you really expect U9's to U15's to travel three nights a week, neglecting their school work, getting stuck with a big mac in a traffic jam for an hour both ways?

It is a shyte system but 'local' kids/parents already in the academy sacrifice more than you can possibly imagine as it is.

That's not why it was implemented though, was it?

 

[redwhiteblack]

I think there's a bit of confusion here. I wasn't referring to our academy, rather our ability to identify (and successfully sign up) the best young British players before they're stars, but not necessarily at academy level.

For whatever reason, we've missed the opportunity with A. Johnson, Bale, Wilshere, Carroll etc and instead have been signing more and more young foreign lads - Obertan, Bebe, the Da Silvas etc.

British players are more expensive once they've proven their quality, so once you've missed out on the initial opportunity to sign them you're gonna be looking at a huge fee in a few years, and given our crippling debt and constant strive for 'value', I wonder if this is a matter that in a year or so could be more apparent than it is now.

Of the young United Brits that have been name checked in this thread - Gibson is not of the quality I'm referring to, neither right now is Welbeck or Morrison although hopefully both will come good (I think there's a good chance that Ravel Morrison will be an absolute star in the future).

 

[Ubik]

I think there's a bit of confusion here. I wasn't referring to our academy, rather our ability to identify (and successfully sign up) the best young British players before they're stars, but not necessarily at academy level.

For whatever reason, we've missed the opportunity with A. Johnson, Bale, Wilshere, Carroll etc and instead have been signing more and more young foreign lads - Obertan, Bebe, the Da Silvas etc.

British players are more expensive once they've proven their quality, so once you've missed out on the initial opportunity to sign them you're gonna be looking at a huge fee in a few years, and given our crippling debt and constant strive for 'value', I wonder if this is a matter that in a year or so could be more apparent than it is now.

Of the young United Brits that have been name checked in this thread - Gibson is not of the quality I'm referring to, neither right now is Welbeck or Morrison although hopefully both will come good (I think there's a good chance that Ravel Morrison will be an absolute star in the future).

Arsenal would never have let Wilshere go, Bale we were strongly linked with for a while but we either didn't bid or he chose Spurs over us, Ramsey just chose Arsenal, Adam Johnson was another we were linked with but never bid for, Carroll I doubt Newcastle would have easily let go of and wasn't of the level of quality that would prompt us to make a high bid. Smalling however - snapped up.