Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

[reelworld]

For me it's simple. A good manager will impact the game across Europe and maybe the World. Pep did that. There are several managers who want or have wanted to play like Pep. Clubs and selections. Their impact is clear, unlike others who, although they have obtained results, their influence has not been such.


Nobody wants to play like Mourinho nor is there a guide on how to play for SAF. The latter adapted his game according to the players, which is exceptional, but he did not have the influence of Pep at the European or World level. Not in the field of football itself.

Ferguson was unique because his longevity means he developed several footballing sides across decades with vastly different styles. You can't really pinpoint Fergie style.
I'd say Ferguson impact was more analyzed on the management side than the football side. The guy was giving lectures on Harvard on the management class

 

[PepG]

I think he has 3 options when he leaves City, coach a national team most probably Spain. Go back to Barecelona but I think he's too clever to go back as it's almost impossible to do what he did before at Barca and try to replicate that success there. Try coaching a team in Serie A and trying to win the CL with an Italian team.

I would think he would take a 1-2 year break from managing when he's finished at City though, he's a very intense guy and doesn't seem to stop thinking football 24/7.

If he retired tomorrow though, he would go down as the greatest with Fergie no doubt.

Spain is not an option because of his Catalan roots and connections. He wants to manage Brazil some day, may be he will take over from Ancelotti in 2026?! Who knows.. Return to Barcelona is possible but it will be at the end of his career and not as a head coach. Italy is def a possible destination but it will be VERY interesting wich club would he choose.. Roma after Mourinho ?! AC Milan as one if the clubs that inspired him to be a coach ( The Sacchi era)?? Napoli as the romantic choice (The club of Maradona) or of course Juventus as the traditional dominant force in Italian football.. Lazio or Inter in my opinion are not options for him..

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Spain is not an option because of his Catalan roots and connections. He wants to manage Brazil some day, may be he will take over from Ancelotti in 2026?! Who knows.. Return to Barcelona is possible but it will be at the end of his career and not as a head coach. Italy is def a possible destination but it will be VERY interesting wich club would he choose.. Roma after Mourinho ?! AC Milan as one if the clubs that inspired him to be a coach ( The Sacchi era)?? Napoli as the romantic choice (The club of Maradona) or of course Juventus as the traditional dominant force in Italian football.. Lazio or Inter in my opinion are not options for him..

Previously there were very strong rumors of him going to Juventus, but then he extended his City contract. I could see a remote possibility of something like that down the line.

I think a national team job makes sense eventually for if and when he wants a slower pace. Guillem Balagué recently joined in speculation that Pep would coach the English national team when his City contract runs out. He also speculated that De Zerbi would take over at City after Pep. He probably is just speculating and has no clue like the rest of us. In the England case, after he has finished making the Prem a farmer's league and most of the key England players have either been coach by him or his minions borrowing from his style it could ease the transition, since one of the difficulties with NT coaching for Pep would be implementing his style.

Pep's trajectory is interesting because the prospect of even approaching SAF is so exceptionally remote you laugh off the idea of it for most. There are a lot of details and context to this topic but, in the main, I see about 4 key areas weighted differently by different people: 1.) club level winning and dominance 2.) national team winning 3.) stylistic or tactical influence on the game and 4.) romanticism, force of personality and coaching narrative.

Pep has already made significant, historically-great headway on elements #1 and #3, even if he might not top the list in either of those categories. With these things alone, he has probably done enough to at least be in the discussion amongst the greatest the game has ever seen. He could easily still add to his case in these regards as well. One more CL win and he is tied for joint most ever. He already has the most CL semi-final appearances ever and a bunch of other records that don't need repeating.

He is also young enough that he has opportunity to add element #2 to his case as a way to distinguish himself from SAF with a bit of luck. Carlo could we be on his way to doing exactly this with Brazil. The likes of Rinus Michels, Marcello Lippi and Vicente Del Bosque and probably a few others also have club success and NT success. Michels' club success was good, but not Pep level. But he is frequently classed as the leader in element #3. Lippi is very good in all of elements 1 to 3. While no tactical slouch, he is probably classed below Pep in this regard. Del Bosque probably doesn't have enough of a claim with element #3, but had good, if brief, success in element #1 and great success in element #2, even if there is a bit of a perception that he was just along for the ride.

Pep will likely never have much romance or charm to his story for element #4 to rival other great coaches. It's just been machine-like domination pretty much from the outset. Of his prospects in the realm of possibility, taking a Juventus back to the top of Serie A and possibly even Europe could add to his case in this regard. But is that really giving anyone warm, fuzzy or inspired feelings? It's Juventus, FFS. He probably needs to have a calamitous fall and somehow manage to rise back up to the top to make any real headway here, and I don't see this as likely.

His trajectory does have some interesting pathways to add to his already-strong case though. Imagine the hype if he manages to win something with England if Southgate does not. You think the hype is bad now?

 

[Gehrman]

Ferguson was unique because his longevity means he developed several footballing sides across decades with vastly different styles. You can't really pinpoint Fergie style.
I'd say Ferguson impact was more analyzed on the management side than the football side. The guy was giving lectures on Harvard on the management class

I know this isnt really about Saf's style but i was fairly confident that Man Utd would at least be challenging for title every season after his retirement but a decade on with have the highest net transfer spend in the last 10 years and no title challenges and going through groundhog day with our managers. He really was excellent in making the most of what he had even though i would severely critize him for fecking around with bebe, obertan and Cleverly etc. And yeah he never had one style. He was a very adaptable manager.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He’ll win you a feck tonne of leagues with these tactics, but it’s gotta hurt that after 16 years of managing some of the best teams ever assembled, it’s still 3 CL for him.

Now obviously 3 CL is 3 CL, but his boring as feck tactics do tend to bite him in the arse often in this competition.

 

[always_hoping]

The Greatest then now and forever Sir Alex Ferguson!

 

[RyRy11]

Imagine what he would have achieved without Messi, doping and unlimited money

 

[AndyMUFC]

Nah. It's this guy.

 

[erikcred]

Were we never interested in getting Carlo? Even when he was knocking about at Everton recently?

 

[bosnian_red]

Nah. It's this guy.

Greatest league manager is Sir Alex, Carlo can take the greatest cup competition manager crown.

 

[Theonas]

Were we never interested in getting Carlo? Even when he was knocking about at Everton recently?

I think Sir is supposed to have sounded him out to follow him but he'd already given his word to Real or something like that.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

He’ll win you a feck tonne of leagues with these tactics, but it’s gotta hurt that after 16 years of managing some of the best teams ever assembled, it’s still 3 CL for him.

Now obviously 3 CL is 3 CL, but his boring as feck tactics do tend to bite him in the arse often in this competition.

3 CL titles yes, but it ignores context.

2 of them he had Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, et al. Most of that Barca team won back to back Euro's and a World Cup in 4 years, without Pep. And Messi is the best player of all time and when Pep was there, was arguably the best version of Messi.

City have breached 115 rules, spent a billion under Pep to achieve the 1 CL title.

 

[erikcred]

3 CL titles yes, but it ignores context.

2 of them he had Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, et al. Most of that Barca team won back to back Euro's and a World Cup in 4 years, without Pep. And Messi is the best player of all time and when Pep was there, was arguably the best version of Messi.

City have breached 115 rules, spent a billion under Pep to achieve the 1 CL title.

Ovrebo.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

3 CL titles yes, but it ignores context.

2 of them he had Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, et al. Most of that Barca team won back to back Euro's and a World Cup in 4 years, without Pep. And Messi is the best player of all time and when Pep was there, was arguably the best version of Messi.

City have breached 115 rules, spent a billion under Pep to achieve the 1 CL title.

You can do that about any manager though. Ancelotti and Ferguson won Champions Leagues in Cristiano Ronaldo’s peak. Shock, horror the team with the best players often wins the Champions League.

 

[Semigoodlookin]

He is a great manager, but not in the top 5 of all-time. Obviously, he is a great tactician within his defined system but needs the players to do it. An example is if Pep came to United now and was not allowed to buy new players, he would sort out the overall style but the United squad lacks players he would need for his system. I Now, this is true for any manager with an uncompromising philosophy, but at least with someone like Klopp he is also a fantastic motivator and leader. If Klopp came into United now, he could probably get more of a tune out of the squad than Pep because he could at least motivate the shit players.

Pep has had his teams assembled for him, and they have been the greatest club side ever, a German treble winning team, and a financially doped team and a club that was built specifically for him to succeed. He is fantastic and dominant when he has the pieces of the puzzle in place, but there will always be questions about him because of the path he has taken. I would like to see him take a project next time, such as one of the Italian teams. Could Pep have taken Dortmund and disrupted Bayern's dominance and reached a CL final? Could he have put Liverpool back in the mix? We will never know, but I don't think so, which is why I rate Klopp higher. Both are degrees below Sir Alex though.

 

[Red Star One]

Nah. It's this guy.

Easy. All bow Don Carlo

 

[heraklion]

I would like to see him take a project next time, such as one of the Italian teams. Could Pep have taken Dortmund and disrupted Bayern's dominance and reached a CL final? Could he have put Liverpool back in the mix? We will never know, but I don't think so, which is why I rate Klopp higher. Both are degrees below Sir Alex though.

Why should he do that when he can go to any top team of his choice? He never needed to manage a lower tier-team because he's that good.

Also, I don't know what gives you the confidence that SAF would equally be successful in Bundesliga, La Liga or Serie A, you have a lot of assumptions.

 

[TheGame]

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[BorisManUtd]

He's only 53 so could potentially be around for another 10-15 years and should win many more trophies until he decides to retire. So good chances he retires as most successful manager ever.

 

[adexkola]

An example is if Pep came to United now and was not allowed to buy new players

 

[Marwood]

At Pep's current age Fergie was only just getting his first chance at Champions League football.

When doing comparisons the massive difference in their career paths has to factored in.

 

[CoopersDream]

This whole fixation about Guardiola's CL success is a bit too much. Hasn't he won more than any other manager in history apart from Carlo? Seems okay to me.

 

[footballistic orgasm]

He is a great manager, but not in the top 5 of all-time. Obviously, he is a great tactician within his defined system but needs the players to do it. An example is if Pep came to United now and was not allowed to buy new players, he would sort out the overall style but the United squad lacks players he would need for his system. I Now, this is true for any manager with an uncompromising philosophy, but at least with someone like Klopp he is also a fantastic motivator and leader. If Klopp came into United now, he could probably get more of a tune out of the squad than Pep because he could at least motivate the shit players.

Pep has had his teams assembled for him, and they have been the greatest club side ever, a German treble winning team, and a financially doped team and a club that was built specifically for him to succeed. He is fantastic and dominant when he has the pieces of the puzzle in place, but there will always be questions about him because of the path he has taken. I would like to see him take a project next time, such as one of the Italian teams. Could Pep have taken Dortmund and disrupted Bayern's dominance and reached a CL final? Could he have put Liverpool back in the mix? We will never know, but I don't think so, which is why I rate Klopp higher. Both are degrees below Sir Alex though.

If OGS and Mourinho finished 2nd with the United team they had, then i'm pretty sure that Pep would have won the league with the same team while playing a much better brand of football.

Why will Pep or any other coach for that matter not prefer the coach top teams when they're on top of their game? They'll naturally start going to lesser clubs when they start declining (see Mourinho for example).

 

[The Corinthian]

Ovrebo.

+ what’s his face who sent off van Persie in 2011 when they were 2-1 up.

 

[Red Star One]

On a serious note, Pep is surely one of the best in history, maybe even the best one, but I take all the satisfaction in his shortcomings. For all his greatness, I can’t cheer for a champion who made the sport hollow

 

[ManUtd1999]

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Messi himself won the UCL only once in his final 12 seasons in Europe. No difference.

 

[Maluco]

This whole fixation about Guardiola's CL success is a bit too much. Hasn't he won more than any other manager in history apart from Carlo? Seems okay to me.

No other manager in history has had so many seasons with so many advantages over other teams. Even with luck in the mix, it’s a poor record when you consider what team he has had in the competition every single season.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Also, I don't know what gives you the confidence that SAF would equally be successful in Bundesliga, La Liga or Serie A, you have a lot of assumptions.

Probs cause of the miracle of Aberdeen innit?

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Messi himself won the UCL only once in his final 12 seasons in Europe. No difference.

Yeah you could equally write that stat as ‘since Pep left, Messi won 1 CL in 11 seasons. Maybe Pep was carrying Messi after all’

 

[CoopersDream]

No other manager in history has had so many seasons with so many advantages over other teams. Even with luck in the mix, it’s a poor record when you consider what team he has had in the competition every single season.

How about Carlo himself? He literally has managed Juventus, Milan, Real Madrid, Chelsea, PSG and Bayern for a combined total of 20 seasons. Come on now.

It's ridiculous calling it a poor record.

 

[heraklion]

No other manager in history has had so many seasons with so many advantages over other teams. Even with luck in the mix, it’s a poor record when you consider what team he has had in the competition every single season.

In almost every single time his teams got eliminated in the UCL, they dominated just like today, so not totally his fault.
If KDB could score the easy chance, we would be talking about different things today. Just shows how small margins are in the UCL.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Yeah you could equally write that stat as ‘since Pep left, Messi won 1 CL in 11 seasons. Maybe Pep was carrying Messi after all’

Fine, maybe Pep needs prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, with Busquets behind them to win it after all.

 

[Morty_]

This whole fixation about Guardiola's CL success is a bit too much. Hasn't he won more than any other manager in history apart from Carlo? Seems okay to me.

Yeah, and it has taken quite some luck, not just this season, to keep him away from the finals, he will likely win another before he is done.

 

[NLunited]

Until he manages an underdog team he can never be considered the greatest.

His tactics are predictable; they work most of the time because he has the best players. And it is fecking soulless.

 

[Lexicon Red Devil]

You can do that about any manager though. Ancelotti and Ferguson won Champions Leagues in Cristiano Ronaldo’s peak. Shock, horror the team with the best players often wins the Champions League.

Ferguson also won a European trophy by beating Real when he was managing Aberdeen. Nothing Pep has done comes close to that.

United's CL run in 99 also pitted them against the likes of Rivaldo, Zidane, Ronaldo and Matthaus who were all probably better than United's best players.

The fact that the likes of Mourinho, Klopp and Ferguson have won trophies without having the best players or most expensive squads is, and always will be, a good stick to beat Pep with, because the truth is he has been backed better than any manager in the history of the game and simply hasn't backed it up with enough European trophies. 1 CL with the backing he's had at City is an underachievement whichever way you look at it.

Real had to bring on a City reject, a 38 year old and a centre back on at right back tonight, while Pep was able to bring on a £60m winger on for his £100m winger, a £57m defender as well as another £60m worth of talent and could afford to leave another £100m on the bench. Madrid had 3 key players missing while City had none.

The disparity between the top two teams in the world has surely never been so vast, yet once again Pep doesn't make the most of it. He simply hasn't achieved anything at City that any top manager wouldn't have with the same resources.

 

[QuietOn Fortune]

Until he manages an underdog team he can never be considered the greatest.

His tactics are predictable; they work most of the time because he has the best players. And it is fecking soulless.

Why isnt this the same for players?

I think if Messi is the GOAT then so is Pep.

Pep is the Messi of management.

I wanted to see Messi in a tougher league than La Liga just as you wanted to see Pep manage a weaker team. I wanted to see Messi outside of Barcelona's total football philosophy built up since cryuff perfected by Pep & would have loved to see him play under a manager like Mourinho in the PL aswell.

Ultimately, they choose their career's that they could be the most successful in & they did that on purpose. They went with the easiest option for themselves.

Just as Pep chose to manage Barcelona, Bayern & Man City - Messi chose to stay in La Liga for most of his career and even moving to PSG where both were able to be kings of the league they played or managed in predominantly throughout their careers.

They chose the easiest career for themselves and came out as the biggest winners.

Its like having a winning lottery ticket at your hand but instead of collecting that money you choose to work at McDonald's for the rest of your life instead.

No, you go with the winning lottery ticket because its an easier career choice and you come out as a big winner so you dont work at Mcdonalds for the rest of your life.

If Messi is the GOAT, if Pep's Barcelona's team was the greatest of all time then Pep is the GOAT manager of all time.

It doesn't matter if they chose easier career choices - they were ultimately the biggest winners going with the easiest career for themselves.

 

[tentan]

Imagine what he would have achieved without Messi, d ping and unlimited money

Still would've been the same

 

[heraklion]

The disparity between the top two teams in the world has surely never been so vast, yet once again Pep doesn't make the most of it. He simply hasn't achieved anything at City that any top manager wouldn't have with the same resources.

The disparity between two teams today on the pitch performance wise was so big that nobody would be surprised if City won 4-0 just like last year. Did you watch the game today? Real was totally humiliated, never seen them that clueless on the pitch in years.

Imagine thinking managers have 100% effect on the outcome. One can easily say how lucky SAF was with John Terry slipping and missing the penalty or United scoring 2 back to back goals against Bayern in the last minute in the UCL final. These outcomes have little to do with the tactics. SAF might have easily ended up with 0 UCL titles.

Crazy to criticize Pep for his teams failure in converting chances despite his teams' complete domination.

 

[Fobal]

Why isnt this the same for players?

I think if Messi is the GOAT then so is Pep.

Pep is the Messi of management.

I wanted to see Messi in a tougher league than La Liga just as you wanted to see Pep manage a weaker team. I wanted to see Messi outside of Barcelona's total football philosophy built up under cryuff & would have loved to see him play under a manager like Mourinho in the PL.

Ultimately, they choose their career's that they could be successful in & they did that on purpose. They went with the easiest option for themselves.

Just as Pep chose to manage Barcelona, Bayern & Man City - Messi chose to stay in La Liga where both were able to be kings of the league they played or managed in.

They chose the easiest career for themselves and came out as the biggest winners.

Its like having a winning lottery ticket at your hand but instead of collecting that money you chose to work at McDonald's for the rest of your life.

No, you go with the winning lottery ticket because its an easier career choice and you come out as a big winner so you dont work at Mcdonalds for the rest of your life.

If Messi is the GOAT, if Pep's Barcelona's team was the greatest of all time then Pep is the GOAT manager of all time.

It doesn't matter if they chose easier career choices - they were ultimately the biggest winners going with the easiest career for them.

1. There is not such a silly thing like ONE GOAT
2. If a huge club like Barca, Real or whomever have a a player in their ranks with the talent of Messi that actually later delivers in the greatest stage, there is very little chances that player will leave such club, even as clueless as Barca can be.
3. If you think that receiving the number 10 shirt of Barca historically (worse right after RG's period) ain't heavy, you clearly ain't following how self destructing and difficult is to carry that shirt.
4. The EPL (and prior periods) over the top praise is one of the silliest things ever, no matter how great it is and was, it might have the most deluded fans ever.

 

[Fobal]

The only reality is that today we had a clash with two of the greatest managers ever, one had to win, the other one had to loose