Is that even possible ever?
Cause of the awful relations in years and Israel illegel settlements in West Bank too. I think we wont live to see the solution to this problem.
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Cause of the awful relations in years and Israel illegel settlements in West Bank too. I think we wont live to see the solution to this problem.
I dont know if it was mentioned here but a friend mentioned to me yesterday apparently there was a meeting arranged at high level soon in which Saudi would recognise Israel or something like that. In the sense of this hostilities happening to hamper that.
Read both sides and then between the lines. That's the only way to get a modicum of truth about what's really happening there. History helps too.
An attack of this scale never happens out of a vacuum. It's the culminating point of years of events, and there's worse to come.
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Haaretz is a hugely left-leaning journal that is as pro-Palestinian as a Jewish entity can be.
Calling it the leading newspaper in Israel is laughable.
I would be ignored/hated by huge parts of the public, in general, and even more so in times of war.
But yeah, I tend to like it. They have generally very good in-depth articles about various topics, whether conflict-related or not.
@Amir writes for their sports section IIRC.
There's no chance Israel will stay in Gaza for months and months.
The number of dead/newly kidnapped soldiers will be in the hundreds. The Israeli public won't be able to take it.
Parents of soldiers have more influence on what's going on than in any other country I can think of.
Plus, the pressure from the international community will be so strong that Israel will have to restrain itself and eventually leave.
This conflict doesn't exist in a vacuum.
There will be more deaths to Israeli soldiers than most are prepared for, I'd say.
I'm no military expert by any means, but this seems like the only logical scenario.
I think that is (or might be) true. Saudi know oil is no longer enough and they have seen how beneficial the UAE Israel trade agreement has been (over $2.5bn a year already). Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas don't want a Saudi trade deal/relationship normalisation to happen very much indeed.
Do Sunni-Shia relations contribute to the discord among Arab states and Arabs in general and how much?
Of cours for Saudi and UAE its businnes and money primarily and main motivation.
look at what they show us on Ynet (I think it's the nr 1 news site around here).
This is most certainly a building in Gaza. The residents may and may have not been told to evacuate.
Anyway, you don't see anything that looks like casualties.
While this is an entire family that was murdered from point-blank in Israel.
We will hardly ever see the catastrophes you guys are going to see on your news channels a couple of days from now when hell breaks loose.
You will not see the tragedies on our side.
It's all natural and I'm not stating anything new...
Just depresses me greatly for some reason, this disparity.
This is most certainly a building in Gaza. The residents may and may have not been told to evacuate.
Anyway, you don't see anything that looks like casualties.
While this is an entire family that was murdered from point-blank in Israel.
We will hardly ever see the catastrophes you guys are going to see on your news channels a couple of days from now when hell breaks loose.
You will not see the tragedies on our side.
It's all natural and I'm not stating anything new...
Just depresses me greatly for some reason, this disparity.
Questionable source and heavliy disputed, but if true, (very big if), it's of course horrific.
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You don't say!
This could maybe sound derogatory, but still....
Do Islam and democracy really work?
Can there be a peacefull solution to all this?
Do the Israelis really want to live like this? In constant fear, and with the weight of their own repression over the Palestinians?
Can they work it out? Make compromises and live in harmony? (naive, i know)
Do Islam and democracy really work?
Can there be a peacefull solution to all this?
Do the Israelis really want to live like this? In constant fear, and with the weight of their own repression over the Palestinians?
Can they work it out? Make compromises and live in harmony? (naive, i know)
If only the majority of Palestine supporters (this goes also for some in this thread) would understand that logic, that Stone Age barbarians don't help their cause, but make it worse, they'd have a much bigger chance and voice to be heard worldwide. Israel would be under much more pressure over the years if the public opinion about Palestine was a suffering people. But as long as they're proud of them or see them as a necessary evil against Israel, their misery will only increase and not one western state will think about their situation. The public picture is the most important part and for some reason, the public picture isn't a suffering people but barbarians who parade naked and desecrated bodies in the streets while chanting god is great.
You think if Ukraine right now would sneak into Russia and start murdering civilians like Russia did to them, that the western world would continue its support as they do now? They know better (aside from the fact that they don't hold civilians responsible in the first place and therefore don't even think of such barbarism).
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I'm sure it does but often it is a case of who hates who more - the other Islamic branch or Israel?
That's just nonsense they'd be under no pressure even if no violent act were ever committed. It's laughable to suggest that's the case.
Violence isn't the answer as they can't win and ultimately it doesn't help their cause but there's no help coming, this isn't Ukraine.
The demand from the world is for Palestine to just put up with it. It's shameful but that's the truth.
Hamas Attack Raises Questions Over an Israeli Intelligence Failure
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/08/us/politics/israel-hamas-intelligence.html
Listen, I'm one of those who can find themselves dead by a Hamas/Hezbollah rocket 5 minutes after writing this post.
Specifically what frightens me the most is an Intifada on a full-blown scale, where Israeli Arabs turn against the Jews.
Anyway, to the point-
you completely, utterly fail to see Israel's actions for decades on decades that have contributed to the situation you find despicable.
Most of the Israeli public holds your opinion, which is no surprise. Having complex views and looking at your own faults is harder than blaming the other side for being animals and barbaric.
Have you ever seen one of those documentaries (often made by American or European journalists) that show what it's like to live in the West Bank on a daily basis? I didn't write Gaza cuz it's harder to access filming privileges over there. I suggest you go watch a couple of those.
Do you know that a lot of of them don't have access to clean water? do you know that Israel decides who of them can work and who can't [Work inside Israel where the money lies], who gets to study abroad and who can't, who gets treatment in a sophisticated, modern Israeli hospital for their injuries/maladies and who can't?
Do you know that when there's a suspicion by the Israeli security services that in a certain home, one of the family members is involved in activities against Israel, their house will be trashed at 3 am in the morning, and everyone put against the wall, everyone tied up...
suspicious person is then taken into custody and gets interrogated; if indeed in was involved in such activities, then "great", he goes to prison and Israel indeed succeeded in preventing actions against it, fair enough. if it turns out the said person had nothing to do with it- "Oops, sorry... our bad".
Do you think the IDF soldiers apologize for trashing the house down, or help its residents to put the clothes back in the drawers?
Watching some materials will allow you to keep hating on Hamas while also understanding a bit better where they come from.
I wish death on all of Hamas' leaders and fighters, but I see why they wish death on me.
see what I did there?
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It's all so very sad and pathetic. Both sides have their legitimate viewpoints but this is such an escalation that there is only going to be one outcome. Israel is going to steamroll Gaza with everything they have and there will be little regard for RoE. The videos from within Gaza will paint the picture for their soldiers that there are no civilians in this.
More than anything I don't understand what Iran thinks they're getting out of it. Are they trying to goad the US in obliterating them too? Do they really think it will stop the rest of the Arab world softening on Israel?
More than anything I don't understand what Iran thinks they're getting out of it. Are they trying to goad the US in obliterating them too? Do they really think it will stop the rest of the Arab world softening on Israel?
This may be conspiratorial but my guess is Iran are being encouraged and used by their allies. One of whom is deadlocked in a war where the US and its allies are supplying weapons and ammunition to their enemy. This moves international attention and resources away from that conflict.
Yes I see, you do the exact same thing thousands of others do right now. Connecting barbarism with Israel's behaviour over the last decades. First of all, only because I don't talk about it, it doesn't mean I fail to see it. Talking about it after the massacre on innocent humans is whataboutism, it makes what happened less disgusting. The victims don’t deserve that, it's the least we can do for them now.
Second of all is the most important question in my opinion. How does that connection help Palestinian people and their struggle? It makes it worse, because to the majority of the western world it looks like an apology for what happened two days ago. And in the civilized world, there can never, ever be understanding for such Stone Age barbarism. It would spit on all our ancestors who stopped behaving like eye for an eye barbarians, who started to create laws and to learn to live together.
And last but not least, there are people in this world who simply like to murder other people. They will always find excuses like religion, or some part of history where they were oppressed. It calms their conscience after a day of murdering, it allows them to hug their children, it allows them to fall asleep and not lay awake whole night seeing the terrified faces of the murdered. "They had it coming, I'm doing nothing they didn't do". I'm maybe strange in that way, but I don't feel supporting savages in trying to find a reason.
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One question, do you think what Israel is/has been doing to Palestine is barbaric/evil as well?
Don't expect him to answer. For these posters the timeline always starts with a Hamas attack.
It's like anything thats happened leading up to that (say like the dozens of pages of posts preceding these events on this thread) have not in anyway been relevant.
@Pintu - check out Ambassador Zomlot's interviews on BBC and CNN. Very good speaker from the Palestinian side.
I don’t want to get dragged into this discussion at all, but I’m a bit uncomfortable with ‘whatabouttism’ now just meaning ‘anything that isn’t the one specific event in question’, even if it’s part of the same wider conflict. Whataboutism should ideally be bringing up something that’s at most tangential, but largely irrelevant surely? Otherwise we might as well just get rid of context as an idea.
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The word has went the same way as the word "hater" did in music years ago. It went from being used to describe someone who actively worked against someone to just be used towards someone who did not like that music/song/whatever. So it lost all its meaning.
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I think it serves a double purpose, allowing Intel gathering flights and having a reason to park a carrier group not too far from the Dardanelles.
Is there anything to suggest that Palestinians being peaceful will achieve anything for them? Yassar Arafat was relatively peaceful, and in return, he got feck all, both from Israel and from the world. In other words, the world do not give a single feck for Palestinians. A month from now when the number of Palestinians civils who got killed would be ten times higher than that of Israelis, it will be business as usual for the world. The Arabs also do not give a feck about Palestinians. And Iran of course does not, they just like to damage Israel because of the Ayatollahs sick ideology.
I do not see how this cycle of violence ends except in ethnic cleaning. You have two sides who hate each other guts and who love to do unthinkable things to each other. No side will unilaterally break the cycle of violence and things are gonna continue getting worse.
As sad as it might sound, I think the ultimate solution will be when Israel ethnically cleans the entire region of Palestinians. Anything is better than living in that shithole where Israel takes more land from Palestinians and kills and maims people every day, while the Palestinians whenever they can do as much terror as humanly possible in Israelis.
Of course they have imo, I don't think that the scale of the attack and the logistics/intelligence implied are something Hamas could've pulled off alone.
Iran have zero interest in Israel and Saudi Arabia working hand in hand and the Palestinians were being royally fecked by Netanyahu's government. Both of SA and Israel are declared enemies of Iran and actively working to thwart them in the region. With all eyes on the Ukraine war and Iran buddy buddy with Russia (supplying drones and all that), it was the perfect time to strike. They know how Israel will react and there will be now no arabic country that will openly cooperate with Israel.
It's a win-win for Hamas and Iran.
That's a great post. Please stay safe.
There's some dark humor/irony in using the words "ultimate solution" in the context of Israel.
Probably far too early, but there needs to be a serious discussion about gun control at some point. It’s completely failed here.
Agree completely.
If you think about it, for Western nations to be consistent, some of them, they'd have to say they severely disagree with Hamas but defend Palestinians' right to defend themselves. It is that level of complete absurdity that has been called diplomacy with respect to Western condemnation of Israeli actions, prior to this event, over about two decades, wherein saying "we support Israel's right to defend itself" somehow became the litmus test of whether or not you were a card-carrying IJ member or could run for President/PM.
I.e., the hypocrisy in the Western press can scarcely fail to be more astounding if it tried. They're right to condemn these events but they need to have a comprehensive look at how they report on events from this area in general. Otherwise, to be consistent, they'd have to say they support "Palestinians' right to defend themselves[itself]" whilst simultaneously lightly condemning and/or justifying the attacks and then doing nothing about it.
I.e., the hypocrisy in the Western press can scarcely fail to be more astounding if it tried. They're right to condemn these events but they need to have a comprehensive look at how they report on events from this area in general. Otherwise, to be consistent, they'd have to say they support "Palestinians' right to defend themselves[itself]" whilst simultaneously lightly condemning and/or justifying the attacks and then doing nothing about it.