James Wilson

[Ekeke]

Assuming Hernandez will be around to compete with. Which I doubt.

Imo it's possible that we will lose both RvP and Chicharito in the summer, which would leave a big gap in the squad for a young striker (?) to fill. If Wilson or Keane are considered good enough, there might be a place for them.

If we lose RVP and Hernandez I guarantee Moyes will sign his own forward. We're not going to play Wilson instead.

Think of it the opposite way to his comments in the summer. If we lose RVP we're going to need Rooney to back him up. Well when we lose Rooney we have what to back him up? The answer is not Will Keane and James Wilson. We always have somewhat proven strikers, not kids. The kids go on loan, even the one who made it in Welbeck.

 

[gooDevil]

Except for Januzaj.

 

[Ekeke]

Except for Januzaj.

A winger

 

[Maagge]

If we lose RVP and Hernandez I guarantee Moyes will sign his own forward. We're not going to play Wilson instead.

Think of it the opposite way to his comments in the summer. If we lose RVP we're going to need Rooney to back him up. Well when we lose Rooney we have what to back him up? The answer is not Will Keane and James Wilson. We always have somewhat proven strikers, not kids. The kids go on loan, even the one who made it in Welbeck.

If we sell both I'd imagine Moyes will buy one new striker and then one of Wilson, Keane and Henriquez will take the last spot.

 

[Will Absolute]

If we lose RVP and Hernandez I guarantee Moyes will sign his own forward. We're not going to play Wilson instead.

Think of it the opposite way to his comments in the summer. If we lose RVP we're going to need Rooney to back him up. Well when we lose Rooney we have what to back him up? The answer is not Will Keane and James Wilson. We always have somewhat proven strikers, not kids. The kids go on loan, even the one who made it in Welbeck.

I'm not saying Wilson would take RvP's role in the team, but a squad place might become available.

 

[LR7]

If we sell both I'd imagine Moyes will buy one new striker and then one of Wilson, Keane and Henriquez will take the last spot.

Yeah I'd agree with that. And I'm also hoping that Michael Keane comes in since Vidic and (highly likely) Rio are leaving. I think he's ready.

 

[gooDevil]

A winger

Well, he's played some forward, about half of last season, some might call him an attacking midfielder playing wide, but point taken. At least under Sir Alex, players tended to get looks in wide roles more easily than leading the line.

 

[Ekeke]

Well, he's played some forward, about half of last season, some might call him an attacking midfielder playing wide, but point taken. At least under Sir Alex, players tended to get looks in wide roles more easily than leading the line.

Yes. Especially when our wingers are playing poorly.

 

[mo0]

just don't think he's ready.

again, not a slight, but he needs a bigger bridge from now > future. just don't see the first team being a nailed on thing for him this coming season.

Powell was arguably far more ready at 18 than Wilson; still went on loan. Zaha...well

 

[Kag]

Yeah I'd agree with that. And I'm also hoping that Michael Keane comes in since Vidic and (highly likely) Rio are leaving. I think he's ready.

Michael Keane needs a Premier League loan and to play on a weekly basis. The loan he should have had this year. Leicester look to be on the way to promotion and I'd bet they'd have him back in a flash.

 

[Stobzilla]

I'm not looking forward to Leicester in the Premier League, seems tailor made for Drinkwater and Matty James to have barn stormers at Old Trafford.

 

[limerickcitykid]

if anything, he could follow the path of Chuba Akpom of Arsenal, but given his age (17) - calls for first team inclusion and rushing his progress isn't what's needed. temper the excitement and allow for a more natural path to open up.

other factors include his size/weight as compared to those older than him, the general direction and relative "instability" of the club and how that all backs into his progression as a player.

not saying he's not a talent or that he shouldn't go on a club tour, but look at a Lingard or Michael Keane. it's a different, subjective, view on how to promote and nurture talent.

Probably a typo but he is 18.

He is averaging near a goal a game in the reserves and youth league. He'll be 19 mid-way next season. I don't think the odd cup match is rushing an almost 19 year olds progress. Look at the England u19s. 8 out of 10 of the forwards have already made senior appearances for a club. Getting the odd cup match and going on loan at 18/19 is the natural path. I can't think of any top players who at 20 had never played senior football.

Most of the CBs he has come up against in the reserves have the odd senior appearance and he hasn't had trouble with them. Size and weight should be no problem for him, there are smaller 18 year olds playing first team football and doing great. What does our "instability" have to do with sending him out on loan?

Lingard and Michael Keane are hardly career paths you want to follow. Jesse is 21 and spent half of this season in the reserves. He has 21 Championship appearances where other players his age already have 100+ appearances in the PL. He is a great example of being in the reserves for too long. Jesse was a reserve regular for almost 3 years and made his debut almost 4 years ago. There is simply no reason for Wilson to be staying in the reserves for that long. He is already dominating it and should be pushed on next season. Keane was a regular at a top Championship club last year and was back in the reserves this year. It is a waste of time when they should be pushed on.

When was the last time this different and subjective view worked? Our players are being left behind at 18-21 because they are getting less appearances in the reserves than others across Europe who are regular senior players at the same age. Look at Pearson and Rothwell. The first half of the season was a complete waste for them. This holding them back leads to us calling our 24 year olds young prospects while the best players in the league are younger than them. James McCarthy is a year younger than Cleverley and has about twice as many PL appearances.

Who are we going to use a 20 year old from our academy with 10-20 senior appearances on loan or just buy a 20 year old with 100+ appearances? Our players waste too much time in the reserves and you can see from Mats Daehli how good they are and don't need to be held back. If we want James Wilson to ever be a starter here then he shouldn't be just playing reserve football at 18/19. If we want another player who at 21 still looks promising and realistically has almost no chance of making it then we should carry on leaving our players in the reserves.

 

[surf]

Agree with the previous post. Anyone who stands out in the academy, like Evans, Welbeck, Januzaj, needs more than reserve football once they are 18 or 19. Either play for the first team or go on loan for a season or two or go the Daehli/Pogba route and leave. A potentially star player can not afford to mark time for two or three years, otherwise they fall too far behind their peers who are playing regular first team games.

 

[gooDevil]

Welbeck received 13 United appearances in 2008-9 as an 18-19 year old (3 in the league, 5 in the FAC, 5 in LC), which would be a pretty good goal for Wilson next season.

But personally I'd rather he was playing everyday in the Championship, even if it was for a team in the bottom of the table. There's no substitution for playing against men in games that mattter.

Welbeck also got 11 appearances for United in 2009-10, then went on loan at PNE for another 8 appearances. 2010-11 was his breakthrough season on loan at Sunderland, when he was 20-21. I think Wilson could emulate that.

 

[gooDevil]

Also, surf is right about Lime Rick being right.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Welbeck received 13 United appearances in 2008-9 as an 18-19 year old (3 in the league, 5 in the FAC, 5 in LC), which would be a pretty good goal for Wilson next season.

But personally I'd rather he was playing everyday in the Championship, even if it was for a team in the bottom of the table. There's no substitution for playing against men in games that mattter.

Welbeck also got 11 appearances for United in 2009-10, then went on loan at PNE for another 8 appearances. 2010-11 was his breakthrough season on loan at Sunderland, when he was 20-21. I think Wilson could emulate that.

Yep that's my thinking except I'm not sure about the bold part. I think I'd rather have him at a top League 1 club than a bottom Championship club. Someone mentioned in another thread about sending strikers to bottom PL teams being a bit stupid as they are playing with teams who hardly create chances. They don't really need the experience of getting 1 chance a match as we are top club and they'll be getting more chances here so should be used to playing at a top team who creates more chances.

You get what I am saying? Not sure if I'm explaining it right.

 

[gooDevil]

I don't watch the Championship, so if that's the case then I agree completely, no point in Wilson playing for a team that creates 3 chances for him a game.

 

[Drainy]

no point in Wilson playing for a team that created 3 chances for him a game.

Like our first team?

 

[gooDevil]

Hmm, now that's a quandary. Perhaps we do need to get him used to playing with few opportunities to score.

 

[rooneyaldo]

Looking at Liverpool from back in the day when they produced some awesome strikers in Robbie Fowler and Michael Owen. How were these guys at academy/reserve level. Maybe its best to give the really standout players a run in the first team as soon as possible and they may find it within their grasp very soon, if you delay, they may fall behind.

 

[Rowem]

Also worth considering that matches between the big sides are usually extreme tight and chances are rare.

Additionally, United have tended to play in a counter-attacking style in these kind of games.

So there are positives to draw from playing for a side that is struggling.

On the other hand there are drawbacks too. One might be playing time - a struggling side is more likely to play less attacking/flair players, preferring to use them as impact subs when chasing a game.

Also, the tendency for struggling sides is also to play a more long-ball style of play which often doesn't suit the kind of players that we are trying to produce.

 

[mo0]

Probably a typo but he is 18.

When was the last time this different and subjective view worked? Our players are being left behind at 18-21 because they are getting less appearances in the reserves than others across Europe who are regular senior players at the same age. Look at Pearson and Rothwell. The first half of the season was a complete waste for them. This holding them back leads to us calling our 24 year olds young prospects while the best players in the league are younger than them. James McCarthy is a year younger than Cleverley and has about twice as many PL appearances.

a loan? absolutely. yes. you nailed it. i've no issue with a loan. what i have issue with is him (or any other homegrown talent) falling foul of being overhyped (atypical at United anyway) and these calls for first team inclusion. that was my point, and hopefully the masses agree.

18-21 is a FAILED age group across English football. it's not a United issue - it's an English club issue.

the subjective comment is wrt a Lingard v Januzaj type scenario. both standouts, one performs admirably over summer, is far more embedded in the system, but has a different path to the other who is pushed into the first team fore.

we're actually on the same page...i'm just inclined to be more protective of a very gifted player given the laundry list of others who have been rushed or pushed too far.

on a side note, avg age of a PL debut is 21, i believe. can't recall. it's a lot older than we all believe it to be anyway.

 

[simonhch]

If we lose RVP and Hernandez I guarantee Moyes will sign his own forward....

Anichebe?

 

[Stobzilla]

Anichebe?

I want that to happen just to see the implosion on here.

 

[Ekeke]

Anichebe?

Wouldn't rule it out...

 

[Getsme]

Well looks like RVP and Hernandez are going nowhere Best place for Wilson and Keane next season is on loan, hopefully at a Premier League Club.

 

[Varun]

Well looks like RVP and Hernandez are going nowhere Best place for Wilson and Keane next season is on loan, hopefully at a Premier League Club.

Hernandez? Anything I've missed regarding him?

 

[Getsme]

Hernandez? Anything I've missed regarding him?

His agent came out and said he's not leaving at the beginning of last month, he also said that he refused to listen to offers from team across Europe as well as recently rubbishing the rumours that he's of to Milan. He also stated that he has several years left on his contract and that any potential summer exit would also need a meeting with the club, something that isn't on the cards right now.

I think the only way he will be off in the summer is if Moyes wants him to go, which would mean that he plans to promote Keane or Wilson I'd imagine.

 

[Ekeke]

Or more likely he'd be planning to replace them with another top striker.

 

[Varun]

His agent came out and said he's not leaving at the beginning of last month, he also said that he refused to listen to offers from team across Europe as well as recently rubbishing the rumours that he's of to Milan. He also stated that he has several years left on his contract and that any potential summer exit would also need a meeting with the club, something that isn't on the cards right now.

I think the only way he will be off in the summer is if Moyes wants him to go, which would mean that he plans to promote Keane or Wilson I'd imagine.

I see. I'd be very surprised if he stays though.

Or more likely he'd be planning to replace them with another top striker.

No chance of that happening. Even if hernandez leaves, we have 2 absolutely top striker + Welbeck. No place for another top striker there.

 

[Getsme]

Or more likely he'd be planning to replace them with another top striker.

If Hernandez left?
Considering he's only played a handful of games I very much doubt he will. If we sold two of the four then I'd agree.

I see. I'd be very surprised if he stays though.

For his own good he probably should, he doesn't deserve to be 4th choice forward, even at a club like United. As long as we sell him overseas then I'd have no problem with him leaving.

 

[TheNewEra]

A winger

Yes Januzaj is currently a winger, but this is not football in the 1990s where you have a fixed position each game, and a small squad.

Players now play multiple positions, Januzaj in future will be LW/RW/CF he will play in the middle too, and he can run at players, Ronaldo started off his career as a RM, he can play anywhere up top, same with Messi, Januzaj may not be of that caliber but it shows, young players now, they learn a lot of positions.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes Januzaj is currently a winger, but this is not football in the 1990s where you have a fixed position each game, and a small squad.

Players now play multiple positions, Januzaj in future will be LW/RW/CF he will play in the middle too, and he can run at players, Ronaldo started off his career as a RM, he can play anywhere up top, same with Messi, Januzaj may not be of that caliber but it shows, young players now, they learn a lot of positions.

So he's a winger who isnt expected to come on and score goals. Like a striker.

 

[TheNewEra]

So he's a winger who isnt expected to come on and score goals. Like a striker.

No young player at 18 gets many goals in their first season, they are still developing, players generally peak at 27-28, Januzaj just turned 19.

Januzaj will play through the middle in his career he has all the ability in the world, and he will play out on the wing at times too, if you think he's not expect to score many goals you should really look at how many players come into a senior role and in their first season grab 20 goals, it just doesn't happen.

Januzaj has had glimpses this year, has played a few games, in one game he could have had 2 goals, but Welbeck got infront of him to take the chances, plus Januzaj has had some good chances, just consistency isn't 100% there yet.

You are thinking too much about football 10-15 years ago to say he isn't expected to come on and score goals, do you know how many wingers score bags of goals? all the top talents do, Hazard is now, Griezmann is, both years ahead in development, Januzaj when he gets in the gym puts some muscle on, he has the potential to be around that level.

A winger isn't just there for crosses, he can be deployed central, as an inverted forward, there's so much potential there.

 

[Ekeke]

No young player at 18 gets many goals in their first season, they are still developing, players generally peak at 27-28, Januzaj just turned 19.

Januzaj will play through the middle in his career he has all the ability in the world, and he will play out on the wing at times too, if you think he's not expect to score many goals you should really look at how many players come into a senior role and in their first season grab 20 goals, it just doesn't happen.

Januzaj has had glimpses this year, has played a few games, in one game he could have had 2 goals, but Welbeck got infront of him to take the chances, plus Januzaj has had some good chances, just consistency isn't 100% there yet.

You are thinking too much about football 10-15 years ago to say he isn't expected to come on and score goals, do you know how many wingers score bags of goals? all the top talents do, Hazard is now, Griezmann is, both years ahead in development, Januzaj when he gets in the gym puts some muscle on, he has the potential to be around that level.

You are completely missing the point. When you are being used as a winger its fine to come on as a young lad and run about, have a dribble and make a pass as your contribution. When you're a striker you're going to be judged by your end product, a young striker like Will Keane or Wilson will have to come on and score some goals every once in a while. Its much more pressure and a lot more difficult and thats why we loan our strikers out.

 

[gooDevil]

I think Wilson would score goals for United. But he's not better, right now, than any of our 4 striker, so loans it must be.

 

[TheNewEra]

You are completely missing the point. When you are being used as a winger its fine to come on as a young lad and run about, have a dribble and make a pass as your contribution. When you're a striker you're going to be judged by your end product, a young striker like Will Keane or Wilson will have to come on and score some goals every once in a while. Its much more pressure and a lot more difficult and thats why we loan our strikers out.

Yes but that's because they are nearing the end of their development as a player too, their physique is there and they need to play with men basically, not U21 boys, or reserves.

To be honest from what I've seen of Wilson I'm not 100% sure about him, he seems a little clumsy with touches at times, and I think if he was up against established defenders... a lot of what he does would be closed down, depends how he develops though, there are some great players coming through the academy right now though, I'm a bit sad we let Dæhli go though

 

[limerickcitykid]

a loan? absolutely. yes. you nailed it. i've no issue with a loan. what i have issue with is him (or any other homegrown talent) falling foul of being overhyped (atypical at United anyway) and these calls for first team inclusion. that was my point, and hopefully the masses agree.

18-21 is a FAILED age group across English football. it's not a United issue - it's an English club issue.

the subjective comment is wrt a Lingard v Januzaj type scenario. both standouts, one performs admirably over summer, is far more embedded in the system, but has a different path to the other who is pushed into the first team fore.

we're actually on the same page...i'm just inclined to be more protective of a very gifted player given the laundry list of others who have been rushed or pushed too far.

on a side note, avg age of a PL debut is 21, i believe. can't recall. it's a lot older than we all believe it to be anyway.

Yes it certainly is an issue, especially with the top clubs as there is just too much pressure to get results to give young players match time. The lower teams have a better chance to give their youth players a chance but then their youth players just don't have as much potential.

Is it 21? That's interesting. Do you know if that includes players who have played previously in other leagues like the Championship? That would skew the results.

From a player's point of view Daehli's route is the smartest. Get the top level training from 15-18 and then move on to a lower club who can offer you the playing time from 18-21.

 

[Will Absolute]

Also, surf is right about Lime Rick being right.

I believe Rick works in the construction industry, and has a particular talent for mixing cement. Hence the sobriquet.

Rick would have been a better username.

 

[limerickcitykid]

I believe Rick works in the construction industry, and has a particular talent for mixing cement. Hence the sobriquet.

Rick would have been a better username.

Am I Rick?