He was good. But not good enough for top team. If he were they would have gone all put to get him. The only club to really make any effort was Utd when Moyes came in.
Jarrod Bowen
- Thread starter wythyred
- Start date
Football doesn't always work like that. Feel like you're a bit off in your assessment of Baines and Bowen.
Baines was the ultimate attacking full back before it was cool. 32 goals and 53 assists in PL football.
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Who do you think was better for the next few years from 2012 onwards? To me it was clear he was the best in the league once Cole and Evra began to decline.
As is Bowen
I know it doesn't.
We'll never know, because neither will ever have played for a top side. Bowen us a very good player, I'm not denying it. But he won't be moving to a top PL team, because he isn't good enough to pay what West Ham would want for him.
We've seen loads of players go from being good at mid table clubs, but just not be cut out for playing in one of the top teams. It happens, they're still very good PL players, but realistically just don't have enough to play for a top team.
There wasn't a great selection of left backs really, you had Kolarov maybe and I think Konchesky rocked up at Liverpool at some point. I'm not saying he wasn't a very good player, he was, he just wasn't good enough for a top team. If he were teams would have made the extra effort to sign him because he would have been worth it.
I just think your arguments for Baines and Bown not being good enough for a top club a bit weird. Firstly, just because someone won't pay loads for a player, it doesn't mean they aren't good enough to play for a top club. As a United fan you should be well aware that spunking a load on a player doesn't mean they're good and that there are many players who go to top clubs for low fees that excel.
Secondly, there are also many examples of players that go to top clubs with no competition from any other for their signature and excel.
Not really, if a player is really good enough a team who wants them will try to sign them at whatever it takes. If Utd or Arsenal or City even Chelsea really wanted Baines that badly they would have paid what they needed to get him. Like Rice or even when people thought Utd were mad to spend 14m on Carrick.
There's also loads of examples of players who go to top clubs and fail, regardless of competition and fee like Robbie Keane going to Liverpool or Schniederlin to Utd.
I get that I've insulted an Everton player. I'm not saying he wasn't a good player, Baines was a brilliant player, but he wasn't good enough for a top team. Bowen is in that same category.
Well, no. That's not true. City pulled from the Rice deal and he's quite clearly good enough to play for them.
Far little cnut, no thanks
Would instantly be the most exciting player in the United team.
Would he feck.
Because they really didn't need him.
Right. You're just shifting the goalposts with each post.
Considering we gambled on Antony, hojlund and sancho over the years for between 60-80 million, bowen is definitely worth 60 to 80 million in this day and age, he is a safe buy as you know what he delivers every season in terms of goal and assists and on top of that he has the mentality and work ethic we say our a lot of our current players lack.
We can turn our nose up at these mid table players that are doing well and waste more money on unproven premier league players abroad and marquee signings but it hardly ever works for us, maybe it's time to try something a little different, the likes of city and Liverpool ain't done too badly in recent years in buying players from the likes of villa, Bournemouth, Brighton and Southampton
We can turn our nose up at these mid table players that are doing well and waste more money on unproven premier league players abroad and marquee signings but it hardly ever works for us, maybe it's time to try something a little different, the likes of city and Liverpool ain't done too badly in recent years in buying players from the likes of villa, Bournemouth, Brighton and Southampton
Nah, solid player but comfortably behind Ashley Cole his entire life.
I said Bowen was class when he was playing at Hull. He wasn't "hipster" enough though for the experts at TheCaf to catch on, and now that he's at WestHam and doing great, he's still not good enough for them. Truth is, he's better than any player we have on the right wing and would improve our team...
And you're just pissed I said an Everton player wasn't good enough for a top club.
Have some doubts as to whether he is quite cut out for a top club, mostly based on how he's looked like a rabbit in the headlights and making poor rushed decisions in his England performances so far when there's a higher pressure and spotlight on you. Some players thrive on it and overperform and some don't. Sancho is another who never looked at the races for England despite his Dortmund form which maybe should have been an indicator that he was a better as a large fish in a (slightly) smaller pond, and away from the spotlight.
I could be talking rubbish. Bowen almost certainly would be better than Antony or Sancho has been, just reckon the 100 odd million price tag that West Ham would now demand would add more pressure on him. Not like he would be coming into a well oiled machine either like if he were to move to Liverpool or City, instead he'd have a pick of 2 bang average RBs to support him. Probably better off staying at West Ham.
I could be talking rubbish. Bowen almost certainly would be better than Antony or Sancho has been, just reckon the 100 odd million price tag that West Ham would now demand would add more pressure on him. Not like he would be coming into a well oiled machine either like if he were to move to Liverpool or City, instead he'd have a pick of 2 bang average RBs to support him. Probably better off staying at West Ham.
since we are debating Bowen, no, not at all. You've changed your stance of your argument multiple times to suit it so you can always be right and just want to argue in bad faith. First it was that if top clubs want a player they will get them at all costs if they're good enough. Well City bid for Rice so they a) wanted him and b) he was good enough. They pulled from the bid so you then changed the narrative to they didn't need him since it didn't suit the original argument you laid out and you could be right.Bowen may or may not be good enough for a top club (I personally think he is as do many on here) but your arguments for some players not going to top clubs are just nonsense.
You keep picking that one thing that I said about Rice. I should have said City really didn't want him that badly to pay more than what Arsenal were willing to pay. It's not like Rice is still sitting at West Ham waiting for an offer.
Bowen may or may not be good enough for a top club (I personally think he is as do many on here) but your arguments for some players not going to top clubs are just nonsense.
What I've said is that if these players were deemed good enough, then the top clubs would pay whatever it took to get them. There's loads of examples, some right, some wrong. As we saw with Rice, Arsenal wanted him and paid 100m for him, same with Caicedo, same with Grealish. Utd paid whatever it took to get Rooney.
If Baines was in that bracket of being good enough and also being worth the money Everton would have wanted for him, he really would have been picked up by a top team. He wasn't. Utd looked at him, didn't want to pay what Everton wanted or didn't want to pay over the odds for him and then moved onto Shaw a year later.
Bowen is in that same bracket, he's a very good player, I don't deny it, but I think he's just not good enough to step up to a top team, or for a top team to pay the kind of fee West Ham would demand. Even if he were available for 25-30m I very much doubt top clubs would be interested.
There are loads of examples that make your claim that if players are good enough then top clubs will pay whatever to get them nonsense too. Football is a business aswell as an entertainment. There may be smarter business decisions, for example, it's a much smarter business decision to opt for Shaw over Baines. That doesn't suddenly mean Baines isn't good enough.
Just like with this new contract for Bowen. Newcastle and Liverpool were both interested in signing him with his contract running out and would have gotten him for a cut fee. Now, not so much.
He's on fire this season.
Would be shit too if he played for United.
Quality player - would take him at United as he’s an improvement on all our attacking players. Wouldn’t wish that on him though as he’d no doubt turn to shit and stoop to their level.
Could feature at one of top sides. Seems like a fitting replacement for Salah in the future - can imagine him excelling in that Liverpool set up.
Could feature at one of top sides. Seems like a fitting replacement for Salah in the future - can imagine him excelling in that Liverpool set up.
He's West Ham level, which is our level at the minute.
He's class. He's been brilliant this season.
Given he has a 7 year contract it will be Rice level of money that would be required to lure him away.
I doubt many would be prepared to go to that level.
Funnily enough Weat Ham front line at the moment is starting to show some similarities to that front liverpool (interchangeable players, all capable of chipping in goals) though it remains to seen whether Moyes can make it work in.his style. The option is there though.
Does is matter if Bowen is good enough for a top club when we're not a top club?
Out of interest, seeing as he can play wide or through the middle, where would he rank out of Liverpool's options barring Salah? Arsenal's barring Saka? Spurs barring Son? Newcastle's options? Villa's? I'd say he starts for those every week barring maybe Arsenal where he'd still get plenty of game time in rotation.
He's better than what we have currently, that's for sure. Overall he'd be behind an in-form Rashford ability-wise but that's it.
Out of interest, seeing as he can play wide or through the middle, where would he rank out of Liverpool's options barring Salah? Arsenal's barring Saka? Spurs barring Son? Newcastle's options? Villa's? I'd say he starts for those every week barring maybe Arsenal where he'd still get plenty of game time in rotation.
He's better than what we have currently, that's for sure. Overall he'd be behind an in-form Rashford ability-wise but that's it.
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Jesus, had no idea his contract was that long. Do you genuinely think West Ham would turn their noses up at £80m, let alone £100m?
I know inflation has reached astronomical proportions but that seems somewhat excessive for that calibre of player.
You do have so much quality in attack. I can understand why Moyes divides the fanbase, as although you’ve won a trophy and done quite well in the league, a more expressive manager could utilise that attack far more effectively I feel. It’s the equal of possibly every attack on paper in the league, bar City, Liverpool and Arsenal.
As it sits at the present moment he is far better than Rashford..... Whether we will ever see an in-form Rashford again is debatable.
Knowing Rashford’s tendencies, I’m confident we will. However, I’m equally as confident he’ll be shite the season after.
You guys easily have a top 6 quality side . Moyes ain't doing that. Change it asap and appoint a progressive manager. You could easily get it.
I agree, Potter could do very well there.
I agree. Just wasting a good team by leaving Moyes in charge.
Very True !!
West Ham have Bowen-Paqueta-Kudus compared to whatever combination of our front 3 you choose to put out. How have we come to this point that the West Ham front 3 shit all over ours?
He'd die the same way he died in the recent England friendly. I'm far from convinced operating against low blocks would suit him.
This “good team” was chiefly assembled by Moyes. If they sack a manager that got them on a next level, made them a solid challenger for European spots and has great relationship with the players he bought himself, it would be a move straight from our managerial appointments book.
I agree with what you are saying but he is an old school manager who can do ok but can't take them to the next level.
Where do West Ham currently sit in the table out of curiosity?