It's been 59 minutes, @hebegebe, he must really be digging up some spectacular shit on Google this time, huh? Or perhaps he's fed up with you.
Jesse Lingard
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I think it's more to do with having a piss weak argument in the first place.
Having said I wouldn't dignify a stupid comment with a response, I had kind of backed myself into a corner tbh....
Is Forum code for "I was wrong, but I won't admit it"
Ok, feck dignity.
When a manager sends a young player out on loan does this really mean he doesn't rate him? I mean, seriously, that's what you said. Surely you're not dumb enough to mean it?!
you're dodging the question, you said "Regarding how close he is to our squad/first team, the last time he was available for selection Van Gaal picked him ahead of established first teamers so I'm not sure you're right about that either"
This is not simply not true, Lingard played wing back the first game of the season because there was no viable alternative, Young was injured, Shaw was fat and Rojo and Blind were playing for other clubs.
When he became available in the New Year, he didn't get back in the squad he was farmed out on loan to Derby.
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Pretty sure Young started the game, also when Lingard came back Di Maria and Januzaj both couldn't get in the team, a loan was inevitable since we had also changed formation. I think the fact he played him indicates that he did rate him somewhat.
I'm talking about our first game last season, apologies.
He played once in the first game of the season, due to injuries in the squad, when Lingard came back, Di Maria was out of the team due to poor form and yes Januzaj couldn't get in the team, so you would think that would be the perfect opportunity for a player like Lingard to get at least a place in the squad.
I personally think with Pereira's obvious talent and the signing of Depay, we won't be seeing Lingard anywhere near the first team, but I guess we will have to wait and see.
Oh ho ho! Zing! Pogue you got owned lol hahaahaheehe
The young forward who used to burst into the box and score vital, dramatic goals? The old quarterback who could spray sixty yard passes to either wing without a second thought? The man who, throughout his career, could be relied upon strike a rocket-fuelled volley as sweet as you've ever seen from five yards outside the box into either top corner? He had a fair bit of wow factor.
That's nonsense, of course he wouldn't. By then Van Gaal was bang in the middle of a difficult season with selection headaches, formation crises, results not going his way, too many attacking players and not enough defensive options. He wasn't about to start fecking around with untried youngsters at that stage.
I said in the squad, not the first team, both Pereira and Wilson were in the squad and both made the bench at some stage during the run in, I would consider one, if not both as untried youngsters.
Lingard was loaned out after he recovered from his injury because he needed regular football, especially after that long injury layoff and that was something he wouldn't have had being in the squad. Would have been more detrimental to his development, we did the right thing by loaning him to derby.
Wilson and Pereira are younger and could benefit more from training with the 1st team and being on the bench.
I understand a manager sending players out on loan to develop them, they also send them out on loan to put them in the shop window, I think Lingard falls into the latter.
My original point before I got railroaded, was Lingard, like a few of the lads we have produced from the Academy recently are Championship level, I stand by that.
I honestly think our Academy needs a massive shake up, We have already fallen behind City and to a lesser extent Everton.
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Tbh with that comment, I'm not sure what you're on about. On what planet have we fallen behind City in youth development? they just throw money at kids and pretty much zero have come through bar Pozzo, who didn't look ready.
But back to Lingard and your Championship level comment; which is so vague it hurts. What exactly is championship level by your definition? what players are you saying he is akin to? Are you also saying that he has hit his development ceiling now?
See how he does on the tour and training. Looks as though Nani is off to Turkey so id be very happy to see yet another academy graduate come through and stake a claim. Van Gaal seemed to really rate him and was very unlucky to get the injury when he did. By the time he was fit again we could not afford to gamble with him as we had a poor start to the league. Hope it works out for him.
We have fallen behind City, just because they don't have any kids breaking through now, doesn't mean their academy is shite, they have state of the art facilities, they are employing the best coaches in the business and are hoovering up the best kids in the local area and further afield, we as an Academy are resting on our Laurels and need to have a significant change in how we do business at an Academy level.
As regards my comment regarding Championship level, it means not good enough for the Premiership, it's not rocket science.
But given that those two were already sitting on the bench, there wasn't really room for another youngster. So again, it comes back to the injury - there were good signs that Lingard was high on Van Gaal's list before the injury, but while he was injured other youngsters impressed and he essentially missed the chance, hence the loan.
You can keep saying it but where's the actual evidence? We bring kids into the first team, they don't. We are regularly winning the U21 League and the Youth Cup, they aren't. The Premier League and football league are heaving with players trained by United's academy, whereas there can't be more than a handful of City alumni.
So what on earth are you on about?
That hasn't worked for them though has it. I'm pretty sure the point of an academy is to have kids break through. We are still getting some of the best local youngsters and not throwing money at them and seeing people come through. I won't deny they have much better facilities and they are getting in some good coaches; but it's yielded feck all thus far.
You didn't really answer any of my questions about championship level; plus why is he not good enough for the premiership? There is nothing to suggest he could not do as well as someone like Ryan Mason; who was an absolute pile of shit for Millwall and only really produced for Swindon. Also, you think he has hit his development ceiling or not?
I'm talking about the here and now, their academy at the younger age groups has overtaken ours, they are ruthlessly building for the future, we are trading on past glory and need to address our operation.
You've still yet to mention a single piece of evidence that their academy has 'overtaken ours'. We're still winning things a lot at youth level, producing first team players, and getting youngsters into good clubs throughout the PL and FL, and they're not. Past glory? We are the current U21 champions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Professional_U18_Development_League
Just simply not true at the u18 level as well.
EDIT: just to point out, the second stage, which is the important one, City came joint bottom.
Some surprising teams doing badly there...
Arsenal 11th of 12 in the first stage, putting them in division 3, in which they came bottom with W1 D1 L5
Also Fulham, Soton in division 3, West Ham & Liverpool 2nd bottom of division 2.
Academy's start at U9 not U18, they are better than us in the younger age groups, they are building from the bottom up.
Which means some of these lads could have been in our Academy system 5-10 years, I'm talking about the kids coming in now, they have overtaken us, like it or not.
haha alright chap, you clearly want to be right on this one. Claim what you will, but you have no idea what our u16s and below are going to be like at u18 and u21 level, which is where it counts to get into the 1st team.
Still didn't actually discuss the point about Lingard though.
Some surprising teams doing badly there...
Arsenal 11th of 12 in the first stage, putting them in division 3, in which they came bottom with W1 D1 L5
Also Fulham, Soton in division 3, West Ham & Liverpool 2nd bottom of division 2.
I know! Boro doesn't surprise me though. They have a nack for producing good youngsters
He's not putting his point across particularly well but what he's saying is true as by all accounts things are a bit of a mess at the club from under 16s down. Were still trying to do a lot of things in a very old fashioned manner and failing to move with the times. Brian McClair leaving was part of this and both Moyes and Van Gaal have noticed a need for an overhaul at the younger age levels and hopefully that will begin this summer starting with the appointment of a new academy manager
@hebegebe Fair enough, if this is your point about the academies. The way you were putting it seems a bit dramatic in comparison to the above.
It's not dramatic, City want to get Homegrown players in the first team, they are putting the infrastructure in place now, they are signing up all the best coaches and players, implementing modern coaching methods and vastly improving their scouting network, whereas United and Liverpool are standing still.
Had to laugh
McClair is leaving because he has a new job, he wasn't pushed. I hope the new academy manager does take a look and make some changes, but the appointment of Nicky Butt in a senior role doesn't fill me with confidence. Also, I heard from someone pretty high up in the Academy, that Moyes didn't have time to look at the Academy at all, he was too busy fecking up the first team.
Now McLaren is at Newcastle I could see him going there.
i hope not(loan or transfer)!
Why? He seemed to do well enough under him at Derby.
City need this, but again we are digressing from the point of Lingard here. I will concede you probably know a lot more about the ins and outs of our academy than me; and will take your word on our incompetence there and say I was wrong. But when you say Lingard is championship level, I don't think you have a clue about a) him or b) the championship.
He didnt play enough even though he was better then the alternatives + i dont want him at that circus of a club, lets loan him to Swansea or one of the new clubs in PL.
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