Jose's tactics at United | Acrophobia discussion

[Pogue Mahone]

It's incredible how most people disagreeing with the op don't even have complementary arguments. It ranges from - "Yes Jose has this preference but I think it's a good thing" to "Jose has no such preference whatsoever, it's all a coincidence."

You'd think some of these brave conformists (full of awareness) would figure out that their arguments are at complete odds, and perhaps confront each other about it, but I can see how that's not as appealing as forming a clique based on very little intellectual overlap, other than (against the op, and 'in the majority').

This is some of the stuff people thought was a smart contribution:

"The tall players are not just bringing height and nothing else" - isn't what was argued.
"Clearly they are not just tall players" - he didn't claim otherwise.
"So we should buy short players because they are short now?" -not what he said.
"I think our tall players have a lot more going for them than just their height" - didn't disagree with that.

And then a long list of arguments refuting an absolute claim, when none was uttered. That's poor form, even for this place.

Almost as though the thread has prompted a diverse range of opinions, right? Which kind of scuppers your conformist insult.

If people disagree with the OP for different (or even opposing) reasons that's fine. The OP will always be the basis for most opinions and nobody has any obligation to seek out other opinions to disagree with. That's the way threads usually work.

 

[Moonwalker]

Almost as though the thread has prompted a diverse range of opinions, right? Not sure it needs policing tbh. If people disagree with the OP for different (or even opposing) reasons that's fine. The OP will always be the basis for most opinions and nobody has any obligation to seek out other opinions to disagree with. That's the way threads usually work.

I didn't really mention policing? Nor did I argue any necessity to confront anyone, feel free to do it or not. I'm just observing the fact that people are arguing completely incongruous things, whilst never feeling any sort of temptation to argue it out, all the while espousing a glib pride in their conformity.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Petit was 6,1. Is that the only example of a great team?

Hmm... @Treble.

If the extra inch on Petit was cheating in some way then I'll raise you a pair of 6ft 3 inch blokes that won the following together:

• 2 x Serie A
• 2 x European Cup/Champions League
• 1 x European Championship

Amongst other things. Name that midfield duo @Pogue Mahone @Moonwalker @ivaldo , one was a bit Pogba-esque in that he was as much a number 10/inside forward as he was a CM, he also excelled with the CB-cum-DM behind him to offer him freedom.

Their entire team in Italy was a bunch of big bastards in fairness, probably the best and most dominant big bastard team ever. They'd have given you nightmares Trebs.

 

[Treble]

Hmm... @Treble.

If the extra inch on Petit was cheating in some way then I'll raise you a pair of 6ft 3 inch blokes that won the following together:

• 2 x Serie A
• 2 x European Cup/Champions League
• 1 x European Championship

Amongst other things. Name that midfield duo @Pogue Mahone @Moonwalker @ivaldo , one was a bit Pogba-esque in that he was as much a number 10/inside forward as he was a CM, he also excelled with the CB-cum-DM behind him to offer him freedom.

Their entire team in Italy was a bunch of big bastards in fairness, probably the best and most dominant big bastard team ever. They'd have given you nightmares Trebs.

Was that before the WW2?

Joke aside, probably Inter, in the 60's?

 

[don't sign old players]

I have no problem with a few tall mids. What bothers me is the lack of small alternatives. Against a team with concerted link up and off the ball movement we'll struggle to get into the game. Fortunately we haven't met such a team, unless you count the first half against Barcelona in PS, or the short period against Real Madrid in SC when they decided to put their foot down.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Was that before the WW2?

Joke aside, probably Inter, in the 60's?

AC Milan & Holland. Gullit/Rijkaard.

Both 6.3

 

[Treble]

AC Milan & Holland. Gullit/Rijkaard.

Both 6.3

Nah, Gullit was employed as a foward for Milan and Holland. Rijkaard was a bit like Pogba, Gullit was more like Lukaku than Matic. Good example though in terms of the overall height of the team.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Nah, Gullit was employed as a foward for Milan and Holland. Rijkaard was a bit like Pogba, Gullit was more like Lukaku than Matic. Good example though in terms of the overall height of the team.

The Dutch are the tallest race in the world...and they've never won a World Cup...maybe you're on to something!*



*I don't think you're on to something.

 

[AshRK]

Pogba is one of the best midfielders so judging him as a tall player alone is an insult to his game and same with matic. This is the same matic who was an integral part in Chelsea's side that won 2 league titles in last 3 years.

Your point should be more like , jose prefers physical players. Being tall is just an added advantage but that does not mean he specifically looks for tall players. Otherwise he would have bought crouch.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Nah, Gullit was employed as a foward for Milan and Holland. Rijkaard was a bit like Pogba, Gullit was more like Lukaku than Matic. Good example though in terms of the overall height of the team.

No he fecking wasn't @Treble

Rijkaard was a centre back, converted to a defensive mid, much like Matic and nothing remotely like Pogba. Gullit was much more Pogba like in his position and skill set. Pogba played pretty much exactly the same position in Juventus as Gullit did in Milan.

Milan & Holland played with one forward, Marco van Basten and had a midfield three behind them, Gullit and Rijkaard were part of that, big bastards but absolutely brilliant footballers. So the moral of this story is, it doesn't matter how tall the players are if they are great players. The moral of the latest great Barca side is the opposite.

 

[Treble]

No he fecking wasn't @Treble

Rijkaard was a centre back, converted to a defensive mid, much like Matic and nothing remotely like Pogba. Gullit was much more Pogba like in his position and skill set. Pogba played pretty much exactly the same position in Juventus as Gullit did in Milan.

Milan & Holland played with one forward, Marco van Basten and had a midfield three behind them, Gullit and Rijkaard were part of that, big bastards but absolutely brilliant footballers. So the moral of this story is, it doesn't matter how tall the players are if they are great players. The moral of the latest great Barca side is the opposite.

Nah mate, Gullit was a very different player: he was empoyed in a variety of positions, mostly as a second striker. Look at his stats at PSV when he was Pogba's age: 46 goals in 68 league games. That's a ratio of a top striker. His role for Holland and Milan was more akin to Rashford's or Mkhi's but not Pogba's. When Van Basten was injured for Milan for a big part of the 87-88 season Gullit played as a striker. He's nothing like Pogba really.

Rijkaard was a very versatile player and played for Milan as a CM. At Ajax he scored 47 goals in 205 league games - quite comparable to Pogba's output.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Nah mate, Gullit was a very different player: he was empoyed in a variety of positions, mostly as a second striker. Look at his stats at PSV when he was Pogba's age: 46 goals in 68 league games. That's a ratio of a top striker. His role for Holland and Milan was more akin to Rashford's or Mkhi's but not Pogba's. When Van Basten was injured for Milan for a big part of the 87-88 season Gullit played as a striker. He's nothing like Pogba really.

Rijkaard was a very versatile player and played for Milan as a CM. At Ajax he scored 47 goals in 205 league games - quite comparable to Pogba's output.

Pogba would probably score 46 goals in 68 games in Holland!

 

[Treble]

Pogba would probably score 46 goals in 68 games in Holland!

That was when they had a very good league, much stronger than now. PSV won the European Cup in 1987 with Gullit.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

That was when they had a very good league, much stronger than now. PSV won the European Cup in 1987 with Gullit.

Hmm, PSV and Ajax were streets ahead of the competition - a bit like Spain now, where it also easy to rack up high numbers of goals against minnows...

 

[Treble]

Hmm, PSV and Ajax were streets ahead of the competition - a bit like Spain now, where it also easy to rack up high numbers of goals against minnows...

The only player who scored over 30 goals in Eredivisie in the 80s was Marco van Basten who was one of the greatest goalscorers anyway. Romario became a top scorer with 19 goals few years later. Eredivisie was a top league back then.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Rijkaard was a very versatile player and played for Milan as a CM. At Ajax he scored 47 goals in 205 league games - quite comparable to Pogba's output.

haha. Now let's be serious and talk about how he scored in a proper league with actual competition outside of the top 2: 16 goals in 142 Serie A games.

Now if you think Rijkaard was remotely like Pogba, except for being black and tall, you've simply never seen him play.

Gullit incidentally, playing as an attacking mid, scored 38 in 125 Serie A matches. (which is 10 more than Pogba had in 124 Serie A games, coming in as a rookie).

Ajax goalscoring during Rijkaard's decent goalscoring years:

• 100 goals (9 for FR)
• 93 goals (7 for FR)
• 120 goals (9 for FR)
• 92 goals (7 for FR)

Back to point though, massive side, massive midfielders, massive winners. Right?

 

[Treble]

haha. Now let's be serious amd talk about how he scored in a proper league with actual competition outside of the top 2:

16 goals in 142 Serie A games.

If you think Rijkaard was remotely like Pogba, except for being black and tall, you've simply never seen him play.

Rijkaard was a better player IMO. I'd be happy if Pogba reaches that level.

Pogba is a 8, Rijkaard was more of a 6 and Gullit more of a 9,5 or 10,5.

 

[jem]

I don't see a problem with it. Which of the tall players Jose has signed are not dynamic or comfortable on the ball? Lukaku, Pogba, Mikhitaryan are also strong in several facets of the game. So I am not sure what costs are you talking about? Having tall players in the PL has its obvious utility.

I agree with you, but not sure Mhki is really an example of one of our tall players. The likes of Lukaku, Matic and Pogba all appear very comfortable on the ball, while Fellaini brings a very different, and specialized skill-set. And it's not like we don't have a pint-sized schemer in Mata!

 

[jem]

Jose is unique in his preference for tall palyers among all top managers. Why not discuss it?

And would you say he hasn't experienced pretty remarkable success with this so-called preference?

 

[jem]

It's normal for the CBs and the CFs to be tall. But Jose's first Chelsea team at their best had only Drogba as a very tall player apart from the CBs.

So then it would appear that Mourinho doesn't have some rigid adherence to height, wouldn't it? It strikes that he just gets the players that he feels best suit his system.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Rijkaard was a better player IMO. I'd be happy if Pogba reaches that level.

Pogba is a 8, Rijkaard was more of a 6 and Gullit more of a 9,5 or 10,5.

In his position at this point in time, yeah I think that's tough to disagree with considering the titles Rijkaard won and his standing in World football. He was a top drawer DM.

Rijkaard at 24 though? Pogba was ahead was for me.

Still, as I say, massive tall players, great great sides.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

The only player who scored over 30 goals in Eredivisie in the 80s was Marco van Basten who was one of the greatest goalscorers anyway. Romario became a top scorer with 19 goals few years later. Eredivisie was a top league back then.

Not it wasn't a top league - it had a very small number of good sides. Ajax and PSV finished way ahead of the competition. Wim Keift scored 29 league goals for PSV in the season that you were specifically talking about. Koeman scored 21 goals from defensive midfield in that same season, so what makes you think Pogba couldn't have scored similar numbers?

 

[Alvaro Maestre]

Can we get some RAWK analysts in here to help us with some graphics?

 

[Treble]

So then it would appear that Mourinho doesn't have some rigid adherence to height, wouldn't it? It strikes that he just gets the players that he feels best suit his system.

Apparently, he developed a soft spot for taller players later on. There is above a stat about his Madrid stint. And his second Chelsea team had more big players. Maybe it is a consequence of his general preference for physically tough and imposing players. One can win in various ways. If that's the way to bring back United on the winning way he's perfectly right. I have some doubts but Jose should know better. Time will tell.

 

[Treble]

Not it wasn't a top league - it had a very small number of good sides. Ajax and PSV finished way ahead of the competition. Wim Keift scored 29 league goals for PSV in the season that you were specifically talking about. Koeman scored 21 goals from defensive midfield in that same season, so what makes you think Pogba couldn't have scored similar numbers?

Koeman was fantastic at set pieces, one of the best in history.

Pogba isn't a forward, Gullit was one. Is that a difficult concept to grasp? While playing as a forward for PSV Gullit won the European cup and Ballon d'Or. When Pogba stars as a forward and leads his team to the CL title, we'll talk again.

 

[jem]

Apparently, he developed a soft spot for taller players later on. There is above a stat about his Madrid stint. And his second Chelsea team had more big players. Maybe it is a consequence of his general preference for physically tough and imposing players. One can win in various ways. If that's the way to bring back United on the winning way he's perfectly right. I have some doubts but Jose should know better. Time will tell.

Yeah, I'm feeling cautiously optimistic! (can't believe I used that expression!)

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Koeman was fantastic at set pieces, one of the best in history.

Pogba isn't a forward, Gullit was one. Is that a difficult concept to grasp? While playing as a forward for PSV Gullit won the European cup and Ballon d'Or. When Pogba stars as a forward and leads his team to the CL title, we'll talk again.

Thanks for the history lesson on Koeman - I remember him quite well.

The discussion you and I were having was about how many goals Pogba might have scored in the mid 80s Dutch League. Gullit played largely as an advanced attacking midfielder - not that different from Pogba really.

 

[ShakeUnBake]

Gullit was a physical powerhouse with the same kind of confidence Zlatan has. His touch was actually not that special -- when the singer Craig David interviewed him a decade ago, Gullit could not keep a ball in the air for more than a few times, so had it waned. Compare that to Maradona who I'm sure today could juggle a pineapple for an hour.

Gullit could have been a professional in a number of sports, I imagine. Just insane physical gifts coupled with supreme confidence and ability to mentally cope with pressure.

 

[The Mitcher]

Acrophobia?

 

[Catt]

Acrophobia?

Fear of heights.

 

[The Mitcher]

Fear of heights.

What's the joke or play on the phobia, I don't get it

 

[LeftyBlaster]

What's the joke or play on the phobia, I don't get it

Because we have a tall team?

 

[The Mitcher]

Because we have a tall team?

Ok.

I guess

 

[P-Nut]

Suprised this has gathered so much traction.

As mentioned it's not uncommon for teams to have very tall centre backs and strikers. So we're talking about having 2 very tall players in midfield as opposed to the usual 1.

On the flanks I wouldn't say we have any exceptionally tall players (Valencia, Blind, Mata and Rashford/Martial as our starters there)

So in reality we've got 1 more tall player than the average. If you factor in that our cbs aren't actually that great in the air then it makes sense as to why Jose would want that extra player in there.

The fact we've got that player in the mould of Pogba who has the control and skillset of players much smaller than him sort of makes it a moot point for me.

I've seen it said in this thread that Pogba isn't good in tight spaces and under pressure and whilst I don't think passing his way out of it is his greatest strength, I certainly wouldn't have being pressed as a major weakness in his game. Just look at the amount of times he turns out of 2 or 3 players pressing him to open the pitch up for us for evidence of this.

@Treble what is it you are actually concerned about, because as you can see from my post I don't know what the problem is at all.

If we replaced Pogba with someone like Thiago do you think we would be better equipped to deal with the latter stages of the CL? I am using Thiago as an example by the way as I feel he is at a similar level to Pogba, but a smaller mid who would make our midfield more akin to the normal heights you see around Europe.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Yeah, Jose does want a certain number of tall players in his side for tactical reasons. Remember him saying that a team with less then 4 tall players would have a mare during set pieces(iirc it was his reason as to why Ivanovic had to start and he couldn't move Azpilicueta to right back to accommodate Felipe Luis), he takes that sort of thing seriously where as a coach like Pep act's as though that side of the game doesn't exist. Jose doesn't play the most technical brand of football so obviously he'd take some of those deficiencies cause of his style of play. Imagine parking the bus with an Arsenal side.
You are obviously generalizing and it's certainly not a rule of thumb, however there is an ounce of truth in your statements. In general tall players aren't as nimble and quick as their shorter counterparts. As for how good they are with the ball at their feet, you get lots of tall players who handle the ball expertly in tight spaces at least you used to back in them days.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Gullit was a physical powerhouse with the same kind of confidence Zlatan has. His touch was actually not that special -- when the singer Craig David interviewed him a decade ago, Gullit could not keep a ball in the air for more than a few times, so had it waned. Compare that to Maradona who I'm sure today could juggle a pineapple for an hour.

Gullit could have been a professional in a number of sports, I imagine. Just insane physical gifts coupled with supreme confidence and ability to mentally cope with pressure.

Not so long ago i saw Le Tiss struggle to juggle a tennis ball on TV, now are you going to tell me his touch also wasn't great?

 

[Treble]

Suprised this has gathered so much traction.

As mentioned it's not uncommon for teams to have very tall centre backs and strikers. So we're talking about having 2 very tall players in midfield as opposed to the usual 1.

On the flanks I wouldn't say we have any exceptionally tall players (Valencia, Blind, Mata and Rashford/Martial as our starters there)

So in reality we've got 1 more tall player than the average. If you factor in that our cbs aren't actually that great in the air then it makes sense as to why Jose would want that extra player in there.

The fact we've got that player in the mould of Pogba who has the control and skillset of players much smaller than him sort of makes it a moot point for me.

I've seen it said in this thread that Pogba isn't good in tight spaces and under pressure and whilst I don't think passing his way out of it is his greatest strength, I certainly wouldn't have being pressed as a major weakness in his game. Just look at the amount of times he turns out of 2 or 3 players pressing him to open the pitch up for us for evidence of this.

@Treble what is it you are actually concerned about, because as you can see from my post I don't know what the problem is at all.

If we replaced Pogba with someone like Thiago do you think we would be better equipped to deal with the latter stages of the CL? I am using Thiago as an example by the way as I feel he is at a similar level to Pogba, but a smaller mid who would make our midfield more akin to the normal heights you see around Europe.

It is usual to have a combo in CM of a tall and a smallish player: Busquets and Xavi, Casemiro and Modric, Matic and Kante (now Bakayoko and Kante), Fernandinho and Toure, Carrick and Scholes and so on. Most of these tall players are in between 185 and 190 cm. It is very rare to have two players over 190 in CM. I reckon there is no elite professional team with two such players.

Now, Jose and most people on here think that this isn't a problem at all because Pogba and Matic happen to be very good on the ball and are not slow. Thus, Jose sort of combines the best features of two worlds - that of the technical but physically unimpressive players and that of the physical beasts who are a bit clumsy on the ball. My qualm is that combining two very tall players - 191 and 194 cm - in CM may have not only the obvious benefits but also some costs - mostly with regard to dynamism, tempo, quick reactions in midfield, slow and disrupted build-up when intensly pressed by the opposition. I think we kind of witnessed these problems vs Madrid when for a large part of the game United looked poor. Because that was Madrid who have a fantastic team (even without Ronaldo) and because the final result (a minimal loss) flattered to deceive, no one paid much attention to those 40-50 minutes in which Real were toying with United. The problems resurfaced vs Stoke who were quite comfortable in midfield. It is too early to draw conclusions though. The picture will be much clearer after October when we play several strong teams. Maybe Matic + Pogba will be the key for a very successful season.

 

[Raees]

Rijkaard and Pogba are different players in terms of position, one is more of a defensive sweeper who was a hybrid of DLP and box to box in later years which whilst it shares some overlap with Pogba tactically - he's much more of an attacking centre mid, looking to prove in the oppositions half and take risks with the ball. If you want to compare Pogba game to all time greats in terms of style, Didi for me is the closest whereas Rijkaard is the epitome of the perfect holding midfielder which Pogba is not.

Gullit was a roaming forward, who was very versatile predominantly across the final third - again what relevance does that have to Pogba who is predominantly a midfielder whether it is Left side of diamond or attacking midfielder in a trio or pure CM.

Anyway height does have a significant impact on ability to move the ball in tight spaces on average, there can be exceptions and Pogba is one of them. He's very nimble for a big man. So is Matic who has exceptional feet for a big man in a holding position. Let's not forget Busquets is 6 3? And probably has the best footwork for a DM and someone like Redondo was pretty tall and better on the ball than any CM in his own era.

I'd say if everyone one of your midfielders is tall and relatively immobile then yes you will get issues.. let's just say you had Pogba and Carrick in midfield in their prime against Iniesta, Xavi and Busi, the latter two as well as being top class would be able to utilise their extra mobility to influence the game and their superior movement on and off the ball would ease their ability to dominate possession.

I don't think at the moment Jose has overloaded the side with tall players, Matic and Pogba for me are very technically competent and nimble for their size. They have solid builds and carry themselves well which is important as sometimes a player can't carry around that extra height well and it visibly makes that player quite immobile but for me Matic moves as well as any CDM out there and I could see him fitting in Spanish or Barca team and Pogba issue is ball hogging not poor ability to beat the press.

United look more slower in possession because of shit attacking full backs and lack of a Suarez/Aguero type striker who can get involved with the more silky possession stuff and then turn and run at players to stretch the game. You put Lukaku up front for Barca and they would struggle to retain possession as well. So the height issue is probably just as relevant at CF where space and the ability to move across the pitch at speed is even more important if you're looking to play a particular style of football.

Guys like Van Basten are prime examples though that height isn't necessarily definitive, there will be exceptions out there but yes on average height can play a big role in determining the way a side plays the game if a team is too overloaded with players of a particular height.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

It is usual to have a combo in CM of a tall and a smallish player: Busquets and Xavi, Casemiro and Modric, Matic and Kante (now Bakayoko and Kante), Fernandinho and Toure, Carrick and Scholes and so on. Most of these tall players are in between 185 and 190 cm. It is very rare to have two players over 190 in CM. I reckon there is no elite professional team with two such players.

Now, Jose and most people on here think that this isn't a problem at all because Pogba and Matic happen to be very good on the ball and are not slow. Thus, Jose sort of combines the best features of two worlds - that of the technical but physically unimpressive players and that of the physical beasts who are a bit clumsy on the ball. My qualm is that combining two very tall players - 191 and 194 cm - in CM may have not only the obvious benefits but also some costs - mostly with regard to dynamism, tempo, quick reactions in midfield, slow and disrupted build-up when intensly pressed by the opposition. I think we kind of witnessed these problems vs Madrid when for a large part of the game United looked poor. Because that was Madrid who have a fantastic team (even without Ronaldo) and because the final result (a minimal loss) flattered to deceive, no one paid much attention to those 40-50 minutes in which Real were toying with United. The problems resurfaced vs Stoke who were quite comfortable in midfield. It is too early to draw conclusions though. The picture will be much clearer after October when we play several strong teams. Maybe Matic + Pogba will be the key for a very successful season.

You are using the Super Cup game as evidence? United, with Matic making his second appearance for the club, against arguably the best midfield in the world, who have now played together for a number of years?

The problem with your argument is that height is clearly not a problem on its own - it is the lack of dynamism and speed in some tall players that you have highlighted as the issue. But by your own admission both Pogba and Matic (and Herrera when he plays) are actually pretty good in these areas - so your argument is moot. In spite of your argument being moot you continue putting your hands over your ears and making the exact same argument over and over again. It's tiresome.

 

[buchansleftleg]

For me it's not about height, it's about comfort on the ball, and so long as our tall players have that it's no problem.

If we were talking about big lumps like Carlton Palmer that had the touch and style of a drunken giraffe i would be worried.

Jose even seems to be getting good performances out of Fellaini who seems to finally know where he should be on the field at any given moment. Under Moyes and LVG he was as useful as a hatstand and was just as mobile.

So as long as our tall players remain fluid, mobile and well positioned I am not worried.