[Ash_G]

If we bring Di Maria in and switch the formation I think Mata will show just how good he is. He needs people making runs and we haven't had that since he joined. People want him to take the onus and he definitely could do more to raise the tempo etc but there's only so much he can do where the supporting players are so passive. Everyone is passing the buck and no one is showing desire to really make a run and make something happen. It's not like Mata isn't spotting passes, there's nothing there to spot.

Problem with Mata and same with Kagawa is that they're not the sorts of players who are really gonna shine when the team aren't playing well. They add to an already well functioning team. It's definitely a limitation to their game but personally I'd be more concerned about why for such a long period we've been content to have players who don't take on their man, put in rubbish crosses or stop short and play it short. Taking Mata out for someone else isn't going to change much imo. You might get a bit more individual brilliance from someone like Di Maria who can carry the ball himself in a way Mata/Kagawa can't but to really succeed he'll need others to play as they should be at this level.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I like Mata and am willing to give him time to find his form. He at least looks like a footballer, which is not true of half the team.

 

[noodlehair]

I haven't said he played well in the Swansea or Sunderland game. But hardly anybody played well in those games and certainly today Mata was one of the players that annoyed me the least, in fact I think today he was one of the few decent players, not brilliant not even good but just decent or atleast acceptable if compared to the others. That is why I don't get the over the top critcism he is getting from you, again what has he done this game to upset you this much, because I can certainly tell you I was fuming when watching United this evening but it was Cleverley, Fletcher, Young and Valencia that were winiding me up primarily and to an extent also Rooney and RVP because I always expect something from him and he literally did feck all, our defense I was happy with, didn't do much wrong and from all other outfield players Mata was the one that didn't annoy, he certainly didn't blow me out of the water or anything like that, yet I was happy at his intelligent run in that led to the goal. So if you want to vent frustration, I get it but shouldn't you be all over the other players first instead of brining it all onto Mata ?

Mata playing really bad is not Mata not making creative passes when there is no opportunity for him to make any, it would be Mata not playing decent passes when there are alot of opportunities for him to do so. Mata can certainly do wrong in my eyes, but again why should I single him out if he was one of the only players today that I actually saw doing something good ? He didn't play brilliant and he can certainly do alot better, actually the reason i'am defensing him on here is because I know he can do alot better, because I have seen it already in other games and at Chelsea. I'am I happy at his performance no, but if you can't accept that his performance is also linked to the performance of other players in the team than there is no point in discussing with you. Again how can he set up a goal or anything like that if RVP and Rooney don't run into the box ?

Chelsea became a better because they brought in Mourinho not because they let go of Mata. Certainly Mourinho chose Oscar over Mata because he is more his type of player, that doesn't mean Mata is a bad player and was pulling Chelsea down it just means that Mourinho chose a path forward for Chelsea in which he didn't need mata anymore, another coach might have had a different path forward with Mata that might also have succeeded, in fact Mourinho never even tried Mata, he just consistently didn't play him and picked oscar over him, alot of Chelsea fans didn't understand his decision and still don't understand his decision in that respect but accepted it because he was Mourinho and was higher in the their hirarchy then Mata and because Chelsea were doing beter than in the previous years. Ofcourse Mata wasn't the only different factor to previous years, most important was a diffrent coach and certain reinforcements like Willian, Schürle, Eto'o and ofcourse Matic and Mourinho didn't drastically improve Chelsea, he made them more consistent versus smaller teams but they weren't exactly title challening last season, Liverpool and City were and they justifybly ended up behind both of them, they weren't any more challening than Arsenal. And yea now this season they will be up there but that is because they have Courtois, Costa, Luis and Fabregas as additions. I think you are seriously overstating the effect Mata had in this change, like he was somehow the one holding it all back and having the guts to drop him somehow solved all their problems ?

In fact here is a really nice analysis of Mata under Mourinho and how Mourinho basically had laready made up his mind about Mata and Oscar in the first place and just set him up to fail by playing him as a RW.

http://eplindex.com/51200/mourinhos-matter-mata-rapidly-discounted-importance-juan-mata.html

It is not because you need great players around you to get the best out of you that you are a passenger. I wouldn't exactly call him a passenger, he has scored 7 goals and gave 5 assists in a total of 18 games he has played for United, how is that bad, how the feck can you even suggest he is a passenger ? If he is a passenger than who the feck isn't according to you ?

I can't be arsed ging through all of that, but I wouldn't disagree that Cleverley, Fletcher, Valencia and Young were all terrible. The thing is though, it's largely because they're just not very good, so I find it bizarre people willing to slag off and abuse them yet maniacly defend a far more talented player who barely manages to do any better (save the 3 yard tap in I don't think he's done any better than any of them at all).

It'd be like me putting you and Usain Bolt in a race against Dwain Chambers, then when you both lose twice in a row, slagging you off brutally but making loads of excuses for Bolt.

Rooney I would put in the exact same category as Mata so far this season, while Van Persie I give a little bit more slack for now seeing as he had no pre-season and it was his first game back.

I would agree with EssexRob that Blackett has been our best outfield player this season, purely by virtue of the fact he hasn't done anything horrific and isn't shit scared to have the ball at his feet.

 

[noodlehair]

So with Willian you win titles? Come back when you have won as many titles with Willian as with Mata!

Erm...

 

[united_99]

Erm...

CL
EL
FA Cup

I know Mata hasn't won a PL yet, but PL isn't everything!

 

[noodlehair]

If I had to put money on which one was more likely to win a trophy next, I don't think it would be a difficult choice.

 

[finneh]

It seems to me that there are more people saying that everyone is giving him some kind of mystical get out of jail free card, than actually people giving him it. He is getting a hard time and rightly so, he's a £37m player who hasn't addressed any if our issues. Is this his fault? Partly as he has the talent and should have the balls to elevate us and create chances out if nothing. Just like it's also Rooney and RVP's fault as they likewise have this talent.

However he was never going to transform us into a great team, simply because being in a midfield 5 with Cleverley, Valencia, Young and Fletcher doesn't allow it.

He is rightly being negatively judged at the moment, which is fair. But being written off is absurd. Write him off after being the least effective in a team including Rooney, RVP, Di Maria, Herrera etc. Not being the most effective in a mid table looking team.

 

[united_99]

Noodle is right about title challenging and Mata, it's something I felt even while he was here even during his excellent second season with us.

I never felt as though we could win the title with him, he didnt contribute enough to that. Winning titles is about a lot more than goals and assists, but that's a symptom of the narrow minded view of football whereby attacking players get far more praise and support than ones that attack and defend.

Willian for example does a far better job than Mata towards winning a title, but I doubt many would say Willian was a better player, simply because hes not quite as a technical.

'Better player' is all subjective. Vidic is a better player than RVP and Rooney imo ( all at their peak).

Once we had established Willian into the team and Mata had gone we had our best form and conceded about 3 goals in 11 games, now Matic and Fabregas are in the side full time his contrubition is shown even more.

It's something i;ve had to come to realise too, as some of you know I was against the selling of Mata at first, but within a month I came to realise that it was for the good of the team.

Good for him! Want to give us Fabregas and Matic who we can play together with Mata and see how well Mata does? Or instead want to take Cleverley and Fletcher and play them next to Willian and then see how well Willian does?

But of course Mata is the main culprit.
I know how he was for Chelsea and I don't give a shite what Mourinho or his fanbois have to say.

Even more I know how he was at Valencia (where for me he was even better, especially relative to his age back then).

Wait until we have a world class winger and CM, I am sure we won't see you as often then un Mata's thread.

 

[ZDwyr]

It seems to me that there are more people saying that everyone is giving him some kind of mystical get out of jail free card, than actually people giving him it. He is getting a hard time and rightly so, he's a £37m player who hasn't addressed any if our issues. Is this his fault? Partly as he has the talent and should have the balls to elevate us and create chances out if nothing. Just like it's also Rooney and RVP's fault as they likewise have this talent.

However he was never going to transform us into a great team, simply because being in a midfield 5 with Cleverley, Valencia, Young and Fletcher doesn't allow it.

He is rightly being negatively judged at the moment, which is fair. But being written off is absurd. Write him off after being the least effective in a team including Rooney, RVP, Di Maria, Herrera etc. Not being the most effective in a mid table looking team.

I agree with the bolded bit. This season he has been called out on his poor performances.

 

[Ash_G]

I can't be arsed ging through all of that, but I wouldn't disagree that Cleverley, Fletcher, Valencia and Young were all terrible. The thing is though, it's largely because they're just not very good, so I find it bizarre people willing to slag off and abuse them yet maniacly defend a far more talented player who barely manages to do any better (save the 3 yard tap in I don't think he's done any better than any of them at all).

It'd be like me putting you and Usain Bolt in a race against Dwain Chambers, then when you both lose twice in a row, slagging you off brutally but making loads of excuses for Bolt.

Rooney I would put in the exact same category as Mata so far this season, while Van Persie I give a little bit more slack for now seeing as he had no pre-season and it was his first game back.

I would agree with EssexRob that Blackett has been our best outfield player this season, purely by virtue of the fact he hasn't done anything horrific and isn't shit scared to have the ball at his feet.

I get people want Mata/Rooney etc to do more, the former could do more to raise the tempo and the latter needs to get his touch/reaction speed up but both are limited by what's around them. Unless you want Mata to pick the ball up and run past people (which isn't his game) then I'm not sure how much he can do. It's like we could have Scholes back and he could keep playing great balls to Valencia/Young etc in good areas but if they either don't get a cross in or stop and turn back inside then what else could he really do? He can't force players to make runs or to try to link up or be positive when they get the ball.

I personally defend Mata because I'm confident that with players who make runs and look to link up and move forward that he would look much better. I think a top player player who isn't a dribbler or a power house would struggle to shine in our attack and even they would be limited to indiivudal bursts of brilliance.

Where as with the other players they're the one's not doing their job for individual reasons. Young/Valencia see the ball more than anyone and pass the buck more than anyone other than Clev maybe. Fletcher just can't seem to deal with the pace of games. Between the 4 of them they're not doing their jobs properly and the blame for that is much more with them than the other players around them.

Rooney/Mata/RVP have limitations being shown up by the poorness of the other players around them but I think they could all play better if the other players around them even if they weren't off the right quality were making runs and showing the right desire.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Does anyone else think that Mata could be the one to make way in the team once Di Maria is in and everyone is fit? GNev and the other pundits also hinted at this yesterday.

 

[Sarni]

Does anyone else think that Mata could be the one to make way in the team once Di Maria is in and everyone is fit? GNev and the other pundits also hinted at this yesterday.

I'd literally kill myself with first available tool if Mata found himself on the bench with Cleverley OR Fletcher in the first team.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

I'd literally kill myself with first available tool if Mata found himself on the bench with Cleverley OR Fletcher in the first team.

Completely different positions mate.

 

[united_99]

Does anyone else think that Mata could be the one to make way in the team once Di Maria is in and everyone is fit? GNev and the other pundits also hinted at this yesterday.

Mata is not GNev's type of player. Mata will be dropped at times, but then we'll moan soon enough that nothing is going through the middle. I think over the entire season Mata will play more than at least one of RvP/Rooney.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Mata is not GNev's type of player. Mata will be dropped at times, but then we'll moan soon enough that nothing is going through the middle. I think over the entire season Mata will play more than at least one of RvP/Rooney.

True. Nev does seem to prefer Valencia.

 

[Sarni]

Completely different positions mate.

Yep but I'd literally shuffle the whole team around so that neither of them has to play. Play Mata on the wing, play him off the striker with Di Maria in midfield and Rooney out wide, anything, you might not get the best out of Mata but we'd probably benefit more from playing injured half-arsed Mata on the wing than Cleverley in his favourite position playing his best game ever.

 

[Ash_G]

Does anyone else think that Mata could be the one to make way in the team once Di Maria is in and everyone is fit? GNev and the other pundits also hinted at this yesterday.

Would seem bizarre if that was the case. Di Maria is exactly the sort of player Mata needs and Mata can produce the passes that Di Maria is looking for to play himself in. When you think in Di Marai, Mata and Januzaj you've got 3 players who could bounce of each other so well not fitting in at least 2 of them would seem an odd use of our resources.

 

[Sarni]

When Di Maria comes him and Mata should be the two players we should build the team around. Both young, both excellent on the ball with great technique, both very productive. I'd be livid if Di Maria coming meant Mata being marginalized, we HAVE to get the best out of him for this side to function properly.

 

[Ash_G]

When Di Maria comes him and Mata should be the two players we should build the team around. Both young, both excellent on the ball with great technique, both very productive. I'd be livid if Di Maria coming meant Mata being marginalized, we HAVE to get the best out of him for this side to function properly.

Yeah. Personally can see a bit of a Gerrard/Lampard situation arising in that we'll try to play RVP and Rooney in that they're the best individual players/biggest names but potentially starting with one of them with di maria, mata and januzaj behind them could give a better team balance and an allow one of them to shine. Still I think it would be worth trying a diamond and trying to get them both in with probably januzaj missing out.

 

[Ballache]

He will be brilliant in a 4-5-1 playing behind the striker, LvG loves his number 10 to be a bit more of a forward rather than a playmaker and Mata is just that.

 

[Sarni]

Yeah. Personally can see a bit of a Gerrard/Lampard situation arising in that we'll try to play RVP and Rooney in that they're the best individual players/biggest names but potentially starting with one of them with di maria, mata and januzaj behind them could give a better team balance and an allow one of them to shine. Still I think it would be worth trying a diamond and trying to get them both in with probably januzaj missing out.

Indeed. We'll probably try to fit in Rooney behind van Persie even though he's much worse than Mata there. I think what would fix this team more than any other transfer at the moment would be one of van Persie and Rooney making space for the other and accepting a bit part role/leaving. Rooney's not going to leave anytime soon though.

My belief that we could fit in all 4 with good effect is almost gone. We could play them all at the same time but there'll be no fluidity. Our team is not equipped to that, Mata can be effective out wide but not at United.

 

[Ash_G]

Indeed. We'll probably try to fit in Rooney behind van Persie even though he's much worse than Mata there. I think what would fix this team more than any other transfer at the moment would be one of van Persie and Rooney making space for the other and accepting a bit part role/leaving. Rooney's not going to leave anytime soon though.

My belief that we could fit in all 4 with good effect is almost gone. We could play them all at the same time but there'll be no fluidity. Our team is not equipped to that, Mata can be effective out wide but not at United.

I think RVP/Rooney are just do similar to lead the line together, it would be great if it could work but I just can't see it. I think though they're too good to not give it a go with better players, particularly as Di Maria has excelled in a midfield role and so should be able to play one side of a diamond very well but I do think that we'd get more out of the team as a whole with di maria, mata and januzaj off one of them then trying to play them both.

 

[Sarni]

I think RVP/Rooney are just do similar to lead the line together, it would be great if it could work but I just can't see it. I think though they're too good to not give it a go with better players, particularly as Di Maria has excelled in a midfield role and so should be able to play one side of a diamond very well but I do think that we'd get more out of the team as a whole with di maria, mata and januzaj off one of them then trying to play them both.

You don't need two players of that mould, it's restricting you. One is enough, and put 3 mobile players behind them - Mata, Di Maria and Januzaj for instance - and we'd be absolutely golden. Imagine Herrera and a solid DM - say de Jong - behind them with most in form players in defence. This is a good team.

 

[El-Manos]

Not worried about Mata at all, oozes quality. If we sort out that midfield we'll see how good he can be.

 

[United22]

We need two pacy players alongside him, having Rooney and RvP in front of him with the wingbacks being unproductive is going to do nothing

 

[kouroux]

When Mata was at his best at Chelsea ? Did he have that many pacy players around him ? I think more than pace, it's an issue of mobility and intelligent runs.

 

[United22]

When Mata was at his best at Chelsea ? Did he have that many pacy players around him ? I think more than pace, it's an issue of mobility and intelligent runs.

He always had proper wingers on either side of him. Hazard, Kalou, Malouda e.t.c. The least fastest player he had was probably Oscar but even then there was Hazard there. We have nothing there so far

 

[Pogue Mahone]

When Di Maria comes him and Mata should be the two players we should build the team around. Both young, both excellent on the ball with great technique, both very productive. I'd be livid if Di Maria coming meant Mata being marginalized, we HAVE to get the best out of him for this side to function properly.

Seriously? We HAVE to get the best out of him for us to function properly as a team?

Based on what?

The fee we paid for him? How he used to play for a rival team, that subsequently found they didn't want/need him in their squad? Or his performances for Manchester United?

Only the first two reasons would be a terrible justification for placing him on such a pedestal and if it's the third reason then I don't think I've been watching the same games as you.

 

[gooDevil]

Someone mentioned he was excellent on the right for Chelsea, anyone wanna comment on him on the right of a 433 or 4231?

 

[Sarni]

Seriously? We HAVE to get the best out of him for us to function properly as a team?

Based on what?

The fee we paid for him? How he used to play for a rival team, that subsequently found they didn't want/need him in their squad? Or his performances for Manchester United?

Only the first two reasons would be a terrible justification for placing him on such a pedestal and if it's the third reason then I don't think I've been watching the same games as you.

He was mostly good towards the end of last season in a terrible team, scoring goals and being our creative force. His performances for Chelsea cannot go unnoticed either, he was basically one of the best playmakers in the league for two years running and is still only 26 so can most definitely get back to that level in a good set up. Most of all he's the sort of player we should be aiming to have - creative, good on the ball with great technique. To move away from our ancient tactics we need to go exactly in that direction.

Well then again he's not British, not called Rooney or anything and people generally like him so it's enough of a reason to write him off.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He was mostly good towards the end of last season in a terrible team, scoring goals and being our creative force. His performances for Chelsea cannot go unnoticed either, he was basically one of the best playmakers in the league for two years running and is still only 26 so can most definitely get back to that level in a good set up. Most of all he's the sort of player we should be aiming to have - creative, good on the ball with great technique. To move away from our ancient tactics we need to go exactly in that direction.

He was great for Chelsea but a very good manager (who a lot of people wanted at United - including you?) can't find a place for him in their squad. That's obviously a concern. At his best, Mata is clearly a good player to have in any team. We haven't seen him at his best for United. Not even close. Lots of reasons for this in a season where nobody looked any good, so he should have a blank slate for this season - like everyone else. All the excuses about Moyes ruining him by playing him out of position are gone now, though. And all that any of us can do is judge him game by game, in his preferred position. Very early days, still, but I find it utterly bizarre that people have been watching the same games as me and come out with stuff like "We HAVE to get the best out of him for us to function properly as a team". That's the sort of fantasy fanboi stuff MentalWinger posts about Kagawa. Very hard to take it seriously, after actually watching the player being discussed in his performances so far for United.

Well then again he's not British, not called Rooney or anything and people generally like him so it's enough of a reason to write him off.

Did that make sense to you when you typed it?

 

[Sarni]

He was great for Chelsea but a very good manager (who a lot of people wanted at United - including you?) can't find a place for him in their squad. That's obviously a concern. At his best, Mata is clearly a good player to have in any team. We haven't seen him at his best for United. Not even close. Lots of reasons for this in a season where nobody looked any good, so he should have a blank slate for this season - like everyone else. All the excuses about Moyes ruining him by playing him out of position are gone now, though. And all that any of us can do is judge him game by game, in his preferred position. Which is what I've been doing and will continue to do. Very early days, still, but I find it utterly bizarre that people have been watching the same games as me and come out with stuff like "We HAVE to get the best out of him for us to function properly as a team". That's the sort of fantasy fanboi stuff MentalWinger posts about Kagawa. Very hard to take it seriously, after actually watching the player being discussed in his performances so far for United.

Yes, I wanted Mourinho and I understand how Mata might have not fit his philosophy. Mourinho liked hard-working players and Mata isn't one, there are plenty of players who Mourinho might not fancy who'd be good enough to make an impact pretty much everywhere else.

We've played TWO games this season. No player of ours has been good. Mata was good last season. One thing I know is he needs the team to play reasonably well to be at his best.

Did that make sense to you when you typed it?

Yep, Rooney plays like Mata has 10 games in a row and people still back him to bounce back. Mata has two bad games and all of a sudden he should be dropped. There's this tendency to play down players who people feel generally excited about.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yep, Rooney plays like Mata has 10 games in a row and people still back him to bounce back. Mata has two bad games and all of a sudden he should be dropped.

Absolute bullshit. Have you seen the fecking Rooney thread? 9 out of 10 posts are calling him a useless waste of space. He's been getting dog's abuse ever since the Sunderland game. Could not be more different to this thread where there's, at most, one or two people daring to point out that Mata was kind of crap and perhaps that might not be the fault of everyone else around him. Bearing in mind the positions they played and the pattern of play during the game (not a single clear chance created for any of our strikers over 90 minutes) it does seem a just a little weird that one of our strikers is getting so much grief but our (alleged) main creative hub is getting far less criticism.

Not sure anyone is even calling for Mata be dropped anyway. I know I'm not. Just saying he had a poor game (second in a row) which is worthy of criticism and he needs to play better next time. For some reason this provokes the kind of over-sensitive defence that we've seen from people like you. Where he's being hyped far in excess of what he's actually produced, at any time in his United career to date.

 

[Rory 7]

I didn't think he had that bad a game yesterday at all. The reality is he's not the type of player to win a physical battle, something that is so lacking with all our midfielders.

 

[shaggy]

I don't think Mata or Rooney should be criticised too much when the players behind them were utterly incompetent.

 

[Rory 7]

I don't think Mata or Rooney should be criticised too much when the players behind them were utterly incompetent.

I think its overstating it to say they are totally incompetent. We really need a physical presence in midfield. It really is a tragedy if we don't address that area of the pitch again.

 

[united_99]

It says a lot about Mata when he is criticised despite winning us our first point of the season, whereas our 2 strikers couldn't even keep the ball the few times they received it and never looked like scoring.

 

[Rory 7]

It says a lot about Mata when he is criticised despite winning us our first point of the season, whereas our 2 strikers couldn't even keep the ball the few times they received it and never looked like scoring.

Thats inevitable because of the price tag. The pressure on Di Maria is going to be immense too. Given the way we have to keep overpaying for players.

 

[MoskvaRed]

It says a lot about Mata when he is criticised despite winning us our first point of the season, whereas our 2 strikers couldn't even keep the ball the few times they received it and never looked like scoring.

It was a one yard tap in (although credit him for making the run). As mentioned above he cost a lot and so expectations are high, plus, based on his United career to date, he has little credit in the bank, unlike RVP and Rooney (who got slagged off in any event). For all the mitigating circumstances arising from the inadequacies of his teammates, you would look for a bit more impact against limited opposition like Sunderland. He needs to raise his game (admittedly along with many others).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It says a lot about Mata when he is criticised despite winning us our first point of the season, whereas our 2 strikers couldn't even keep the ball the few times they received it and never looked like scoring.

That goal had far more to do with the quality of the cross than it did the finish (I'm still not entirely convinced it wasn't an OG) I don't think you'll find many posts in the Valencia thread pointing out that he won us our first point of the season. Instead, they will focus on his overall performance. Which is as it should be.

Re our strikers. Yes, they never looked like scoring. Are we expecting them to finish off goals they create for themselves? Or perhaps the other players in the team are supposed to create chances for the strikers to finish. Our number 10, for example.