Ref seems like a bit of a twat
Jude Bellingham | Borussia Dortmund player...
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
It's both embarrassing that Zwayer was allowed by the DFB to continue working as a referee, and that BVB would now all of a sudden use the story to create pressure about a match they lost fair and square.
You didn't hear Bellingham complaining about Zwayer's past after the previous two matches he officiated BVB in this season, like when they won against Hoffenheim, or the two BVB games he officiated last season, including a derby win over Schalke. Bellingham was present in all of them. It's honestly nothing but shameful that Dortmund would now use the case to engineer a position of victimhood for themselves.
Zwayer has officiated close to 200 Bundesliga games over a decade, and dozens of Cup games as well as CL and EL games. He completely fecked Bayern over, for everyone to see, in a cup final in 2018. Where was the outcry then? Everyone was happy Bayern lost.
Where was the outcry when he officated Man United's 2-1 CL win over Villareal this season? Were you baffled then that a corrupt referee was allowed to officiate that game? When Liverpool beat Porto the other week?
If you took the time to search for mentions of Zwayer in the German Football thread before Saturday's game, you'd see us Bayern fans -and noone else- calling him out and anticipating to get fecked over, because that's the experience we have with him.
The German football public has ignored the case for a decade, now all of a sudden BVB appropriate it for their benefit. Hypocritical pricks.
He got a fine and he got away lightly with it. He was completely out of line. But, not going to lie, if he manages to set off an avalanche with it that finally ends Zwayer's career, he also is a fecking hero.
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Which one?
How hard is it for Bellingham to answer his call and just say he doesn’t think a referee caught match fixing should still be allowed to referee. Not a controversial opinion at all.
The issue is that Zwayer asked Dortmund for a private conversation in a letter and then reportedly immediately shared it word for word with Bild. I assume to do his own media spin.
Which is why Watzke told him during today's broadcast to feck off.
Well yeah. That’s all completely fair too. I think the ref comes off poorly here regardless.
You still think Hummels was a pen. Bias and delusional. You honestly haven’t got a clue if you think “anyone in their right mind” thinks that’s a stonewall penalty. Hummels clearly has a bayern players hand in his face initially followed by Bellinghams arm across his whole face. He’s no longer even looking at the ball long before it hits him. Never mind reading, you might wanna watch it again.
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It is very unlikely that an English or Spanish team knew what a German referee had done in the third division decades ago. Just like if Kevin Friend officiated a Europa league game, neither European club would have formed an opinion about him.
People would've been if that story was brought up earlier. Most of us only got to know it from Bellingham's outburst.
And I say given the track record of Zwayer and DFB he might well have been right.
It's on the refs wikipedia for christ's sake... it's not some kind of secret
Ah yes that pre match tradition of....reading the referees wiki page, we all do it!It's on the refs wikipedia for christ's sake... it's not some kind of secret
“I would accept a sincere apology.”
Ref playing reverse uno. From fixer to victim.
Ref playing reverse uno. From fixer to victim.I mean they were clearly awful decisions. Clear pen denied to Dortmund and then a nonsense penalty given to Bayern, shocking decisions. The fact remains that a ref caught of match fixing should be banned for life and I’m glad Bellingham had the nerve to bring it up and cast a light in it because frankly I had no idea who he was.
Unless there's any evidence he has fixed Saturday's game, yes, he is a victim.“I would accept a sincere apology.”
Wasn’t he convicted though? Which is sort of why Bellingham mentioned it in the first place?
It's tough to weigh in on this, because I do believe everybody deserves a second chance, but every rules has exceptions and when it comes to referees, the integrity of the game, while it always is by fans, cannot be questioned on the optics and having a referee formerly convicted, regardless of how long ago or how low of a division, creates a conflict that you cannot have because that will always be on his resume, and it only takes a high-profile game and a (semi) controversial decision for someone, somewhere to throw his history in his face. Regardless of your opinion on his decisions, it's unfair to immediately throw his past at him to question his decisions, but it was always going to happen and the onus is on the Bundesliga for allowing this to happen. As a referee, you get caught match-fixing, you need to find another job and no federation should allow themselves to be put in those situations, or put these people who could honestly want to do a good and fair job in that kind of situation.
It's not like Zwayer's life would have been over if he got removed from professional refereeing, so I think talking about second chances is a bit off the mark. Even Hoyzer himself for example went back to playing football and eventually worked in the management of a 4th division club, that's probably a bigger chance than most convicted criminals get.
I didn't know that, and I agree. Obviously his life wouldn't be over, I don't think that was my point at any time, I just meant for those who just really love refereeing, made a mistake, and looking to continue their passion having learned their lesson, but as I previously said, I just don't think that's realistic, nor would I want them to have a second chance with that same job. It's not really any different than other professions, you make certain kinds of mistake and you will be blacklisted from ever working in that industry again.
I guess I misunderstood you a bit and I agree with this post.
It's on the refs wikipedia for christ's sake... it's not some kind of secret
I thought for a while about this as I’m also an advocate for second chances, but unquestionable integrity & air-tight reputation has to be a professional requirement for refereeing. It’s literally the most important part of the profession. And yeah, being able to referee has to be a privilege, not a right. I don’t think that judges can be appointed/elected with a proven corruption record, for example, even if they’ve did their time?
I actually agree. No idea why Zweyer is still a ref. Although I don't think his decision on the weekend was wrong, it's imo in line with the rules. You could argue that Hummels didn't see the ball but then again you always risk a handball if you go in arm/hand first, even if it's for protection.
Never mind Wikipedia, if you'd been reading the German Football thread regularly, you'd have known too..
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ger...rkusen-sun-17-30.463942/page-10#post-27635582
And here I was laughed at when I spoke of the "information advantage" of having a diverse forum..
So you, as a german football fan, would know immediately the issue that other Premier League fans have with Anthony Taylor reffing our matches if you switched on the TV and happened to stumble across say Arsenal - United?Never mind Wikipedia, if you'd been reading the German Football thread regularly, you'd have known too..
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ger...rkusen-sun-17-30.463942/page-10#post-27635582
And here I was laughed at when I spoke of the "information advantage" of having a diverse forum..
Of course, 15 years ago (not sure if it was actually in court or anything like that). Trying to turn him now into a serial fixer just because he didn't give a penalty for you or gave a penalty against you - in an era when refereeing decisions are backed with VAR - is wrong.
Yep. And he didn't give the pen initially and was told by VAR to look at it...
Comes across as arrogant and petulant from what I've seen. Could be wrong.
So you 100% honestly think, that its normal for all football fans to go look up foreign referees' Wikipedia page before a European game? There comes a point where you have to look at yourself and ask "am I the only one doing this or is this common?". This is one of them, and looking up foreign referees' Wiki pages is uncommon mate. It is. Expecting that of others is absurd. That's what commentators do - not the fans.It's on the refs wikipedia for christ's sake... it's not some kind of secret
He personally wasn't sentenced in a court because he reached a bargaining agreement. But his conspirator for the game I mentioned earlier, KSC-MSV, was sentenced to 1 1/2 years.
Personally I don't care about Zwayer much. He's just the perfect symbol for the state of German refereeing.
What, are you for real?! You're telling me you don't spend hours before the game reviewing the referee's wikapedia? I normally get the family round for dinner and we take it in turns reading each paragraph!
Background checking a ref is part and parcel of game day tailgatingWhat, are you for real?! You're telling me you don't spend hours before the game reviewing the referee's wikapedia? I normally get the family round for dinner and we take it in turns reading each paragraph!
@Niall should add that in match day threads, a section dedicated for Ref's background.Background checking a ref is part and parcel of game day tailgating
It's now the duty of fans to review the historic shennanigans of a referee on their wiki page and then decide whether to protest at the game. The fans have unfortunately failed with this assignment.
Yeah in fairness if VAR made the decision for him then that removes any doubt anyway.
Bit odd that a ref who's been found guilty of match fixing is still able to ref at this level though, imo anyway.
VAR made him check the Bayern penalty incident and VAR decided to not have him check the Reus penalty incident. So no, there is no trace of him fixing this game. Or any game over the last 15 years for that matter.
Is he an asshole? Yes. Should he have been banned from ever being a ref again 15 years ago? Definitely.
What, are you for real?! You're telling me you don't spend hours before the game reviewing the referee's wikapedia? I normally get the family round for dinner and we take it in turns reading each paragraph!
Background checking a ref is part and parcel of game day tailgating
Kind of dishonest to pile on me, when I answered to a post stating that it would be unlikely the clubs whose game he refereed could have known what the referee had done. Or indeed as you say the media/commentators, when it's the most easily accessible information available.
Point is, it can't come as a shock to anyone involved that Zwayer refereed BVB-Bayern. He's refereed hundreds of games, including a couple of CL games of United. I don't expect non-German football fans to have been aware of that, but it's laughable to feign outrage now about this particular game.
Not sure if everyone piled on you, it was just a light-hearted post.
We play Young boys in few hours and I doubt any ManUtd fan is checking who the ref is or read his bio. For PL games, we usually get the tweets posted here and since we are familiar with these PL refs, there will be bit of discussion.
Not that this proves any kind of match fixing, but on the Reus incident Zwayer (going by his own interview) told VAR he had a very good view on Hernandez's behavior and made a deliberate call to follow a generous line and allow it. Which put the threshold for intervention on its upper end.
Whereas for the Hummels incident he said that he saw the handling of the ball but couldn't make out how outstretched the arm was (I don't understand how you can see one, but not the other, but whatever), signaling incomplete perception to VAR, which put the intervention threshold to its minimum.
Oh that's very generous, to make that kind of concession