While he's partly right, the question is why L'pool can't defend?
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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That letters business is like something the Big Brother producers would arrange for the housemates. Brendan seems just as likely to use motivation methods from sources as varied as The Art of War, a fortune cookie, Kipling, a horoscope from The Beano, hieroglyphics and the German text on the back of a shaving foam can.
They have a truly abject defense also. Nobody with any sense could possibly have thought they could win the league.
Caf has its fair share of doom-mongers, and I suspect some people really believe in anti-jinx stuff. Leicester, Brexit, and Trump also made it feel like anything was possible at that point.
Well there is this. There were plenty around here shitting themselves when Liverpool put a good run together early on in the season. Look back to early on in the thread and the weird outpouring of love for Klopp from so-called United fans. It was cringe-tastic.
I was also told numerous times that Lallana is an excellent player. For me, he's no more than a squad player for a top team and Wijnaldum is an abomination.
#Consistency
Now let's read what he said before the match (2 days back)
“We are used to it. It is a two-week break. It’s not that we left the country and didn’t play football for a year,” said the Reds boss.
“It’s two weeks, that’s not a real problem. We played in La Manga – an internal game but it was a proper game – and we had sessions.
“It was a proper camp. Circumstances there are really good for a football camp – I knew it before because I was there five times with Dortmund when we had a winter break.
“When you have games every three days you say it’s too much but when you have one a week or a two-week break then it’s not enough.
His stock has plummeted in recent years.
Penny has finally dropped for my mates who support Liverpool - they've now accepted that Kloppo isn't a miracle worker and that they have a painfully average set of players.
I, of course, knew this all along
I, of course, knew this all along
Still a good manager in my opinion but I think he's starting to lose his credibility in some aspects.
Without Coutinho or Mané they'd be struggling, and Liverpool won't be able to attract world class players if other clubs were interested.
Truth be told he needs to move on from Liverpool, if someone like Simeone leaves Atletico for Arsenal or wherever then Klopp should jump ship to Atletico.
Staying at Liverpool is like taking the England job.
Without Coutinho or Mané they'd be struggling, and Liverpool won't be able to attract world class players if other clubs were interested.
Truth be told he needs to move on from Liverpool, if someone like Simeone leaves Atletico for Arsenal or wherever then Klopp should jump ship to Atletico.
Staying at Liverpool is like taking the England job.
He's far too stubborn, it seems like his solution for everything is to run harder. I have a theory that he completely burnt them out over the past two weeks, but that is based on nothing.
Exactly. Dortmund had very, very good players in their successful seasons under Klopp. The fact that he hasn't been able to buy nearly as well in England makes me think Dortmund's scouting network must have had a lot to do with it - and Liverpool's is shit.Penny has finally dropped for my mates who support Liverpool - they've now accepted that Kloppo isn't a miracle worker and that they have a painfully average set of players.
I, of course, knew this all along
are you a wum? You don't know how much more stamina sapping it is to play in those windy stadiums!
Read @RedDevil@84 post few posts after yours.While he's partly right, the question is why L'pool can't defend?
What makes me laugh is the fact that pool and other oppos were saying how much Jose had lost it because of his 4 month Chelsea nightmare after he had lifted the Premiere league title just 6 months earlier.
Yet the usual delusion blinds them to the fact that Klopp who has not and will not achieve anywhere near what Jose has already achieved, came to pool off the back of arguably a worse FULL season in a one team league where they should be finishing second but finished 7th loosing 14 games overall.
its the hope the kills
Yet the usual delusion blinds them to the fact that Klopp who has not and will not achieve anywhere near what Jose has already achieved, came to pool off the back of arguably a worse FULL season in a one team league where they should be finishing second but finished 7th loosing 14 games overall.
its the hope the kills
Carragher made an interesting point regarding that awful defence. It's been porous for years now. In the current climate Liverpool can't attract or afford the elite strikers who'll get you the goals to bail out such a leaky back 4 & keeper. So their current moneyball strategy of trying to find young, cheap-ish attackers, under attack minded managers won't win them a league. The best chance they had, fundamentally, was when Benitez was there and hade them solid at the back. He was just unlucky to run into one of Fergie's best ever sides.
They came close with Suarez under Rodgers of course but that was a wide open league with no Fergie and a team that shifts 50 plus goals hardly ever wins the league. And isn't a sound foundation to challenge for the title year on year.
Why would any top player want to sign for him when he is at an English club? In Germany with the winter break it's not as bad. But in England it's looks like players are going to be run into the ground. Also with a World cup coming up at the end of next season it's going to be a marathon test for any of his players.
I agree.
A) Didn't have enough of a break
B) Had too much of a break
C) Sacking Ranieri was a conspiracy against Liverpool
D) I don't want to mention it again but United goal was offside
E) Wind
F) Southamptons first goal was inside.
Im going to go with a mix of A and B, nothing like contradictory foolishness coming from that lot. Also D will receive a mention.
B) Had too much of a break
C) Sacking Ranieri was a conspiracy against Liverpool
D) I don't want to mention it again but United goal was offside
E) Wind
F) Southamptons first goal was inside.
Im going to go with a mix of A and B, nothing like contradictory foolishness coming from that lot. Also D will receive a mention.
Spot on very good manager with an average squad. In saying this his buys were not great but maybe his funds were limited.
Looking at the individual quality of the squads, Liverpool is clearly behind City, United, Chelsea & Arsenal. So it still is a decent season for them to be in the mix of finishing top 4. And for those who question his achievements in the Bundesliga? Dortmund was not a "one time wonder" champion. They became back to back Bundesliga champions, won the DFB Cup by beating the best german team and beat teams like Real Madrid, City or Arsenal in the Champions League! Plus: Bayern had a bad season in 2010/2011, but they recovered and played pretty good during the 2011/2012 season! They had 73 points which would be enough to win 5 Bundesliga titles during the 00´s. Plus they were beaten by Dortmund in the DFB Cup by 2:5! A side with Neuer, Lahm, Boateng, Alaba, Schwein, Kroos, Muller, Robben and Ribery, that just beat Real Madrid in the Champions League.
I don´t know why everybody is downgrading someones past because of the present. Just criticize Liverpools poor form now!
I don´t know why everybody is downgrading someones past because of the present. Just criticize Liverpools poor form now!
Some of the Dortmund players he managed might be swayed as they've worked with him before - someone like Reus, for example, would be a great signing on the face of it.
While I think this "running the players into the ground" has something to do with their recent bad run, I'm not convinced it's the only issue. I'm sure loss of form and confidence has played a part too and remember they'd had over 2 weeks without a game before last night. I also don't believe Klopp can only play one way either - they adopted a more pragmatic approach against us on New Year's Eve, looked pretty solid defensively for the most part, and came away with the 3 points. Then again, our record against Liverpool is utterly shite regardless of who is managing them
Honestly I would love to see the Scousers being that stupid to sack Klopp.
I am still fearing that once he has sorted their squad and implemented his style of play they could actually kick off and start a pretty good run - quite similar to what he did at Dortmund. He started with a sqaud of bang average players (mainly resulting from the financial difficulties they had back in the days) and restructured the squad over a certain period - what happened once he had found his set of players is common knowledge.
However, this 'Gegenpressing' thing is quite risky in the PL as there is hardly any team without pacy wingers/strikers and midfield players who are able to play the long ball. This is - as seen yesterday at Vardy’s first goal - is the main threat of his system when not having pacy defender (like Hummels back in the days) to cover speedy breakthroughs.
I am still fearing that once he has sorted their squad and implemented his style of play they could actually kick off and start a pretty good run - quite similar to what he did at Dortmund. He started with a sqaud of bang average players (mainly resulting from the financial difficulties they had back in the days) and restructured the squad over a certain period - what happened once he had found his set of players is common knowledge.
However, this 'Gegenpressing' thing is quite risky in the PL as there is hardly any team without pacy wingers/strikers and midfield players who are able to play the long ball. This is - as seen yesterday at Vardy’s first goal - is the main threat of his system when not having pacy defender (like Hummels back in the days) to cover speedy breakthroughs.
Where's all the giddy scousers that were rampant and smug around this place a-few months ago?
What's everyone's problem the guy is perfect.
For us to laugh at.
For us to laugh at.
Plus the Bundesliga has four fewer games than the Premiership & there's no league cup. Oh and their FA Cup starts in August, is spread out over the whole season, and has no replays.
Liverpool can't sign top players anyway, so don't think there is much of an issue there.
But yes I get what you mean, realistically for this to work he needs two high level players for the front 6 positions, a keeper who excels in a sweeper role and high level centre backs capable of defending 1 vs. 1. That or he completely reevaluates his 'philosophy' or whatever you want to call it.
Don't see either of those things happening any time soon.
So he wants a winter break in England so that players can recover and then gets a 2 week break and then cries that the break they got was too long
Same problems for Klopp. He can get his men pumped up for the big matches against the teams at the top, but when its bread and butter stuff, they lack the quality and organisation needed to keep churning out results.
Still, they play Arsenal next, which is probably the best team they could face.
Still, they play Arsenal next, which is probably the best team they could face.
I don't think it has much to do with the PL. It's been a bit found out in general and all the pure pressing teams struggle in other leagues as well. Klopp's mantra that he doesn't need a playmaker and that pressing is his playmaker because his team wins the ball back high up the pitch and hurts unprepared and disorganised teams in transition simply doesn't work anymore. It's also clear, that he's desperately trying to add a possession style play to his pressing tactics, but this Liverpool side simply isn't good enough in midfield and lacks real creativity in attack to play it on a high enough level to beat well parked busses on a regular basis.
The Liverpool squad is worse than the other 5 squads of the English top 6, a lot worse. And so far I'm not sure he's actually looking for players or talents who'd really improve the team in possession instead of looking for players who can play his pressing tactics. When his Dortmund side reached the peak he had players of individual quality that are nowhere to be found in this Liverpool side right now. The core of Lewandowski, Gündogan and Hummels down the middle was amazing. Add Kagawa's or Sahin's one season wonders to it in midfield when they won the league titles or Reus' individual quality when they reached the CL final along with consistently excellent players who could hold their own against elite opposition in defense like Subotic and Pisczek, both now fecked by injuries, and you have a strong core with a huge variety of different attributes, that can be lead to success.
I don't see that kind of potential in Liverpool. They really need to change a lot about their scouting if he wants to replicate his success at Dortmund.
Very good post!
Obviously this Liverpool side has not the quality nor talent of the title winning Dortmund side, however, he didn’t build that team in one year either. It was a process and that is what the Scousers are hoping for – and I am fearing to a certain extent.
One of the main issues in my opinion is the defense, though. Players like Milner, Matip, Klavan, Lovren are simply not good enough/suitable for the style of play Klopp prefers – same goes for the keepers (even though I can see Karius getting himself sorted as I have always rated him quite highly). These players are nowhere near the level the former Dortmund defense offered – as you pointed out.
Offensively, on the other hand, I can see players like Coutinho and Firmino producing a “one season wonder” like Kagawa did and also think that Mané has the potential to become Liverpools X-factor like Reus was/is for Dortmund. Nevertheless they lack a clinical and consistent goal scorer (like Barrios or Lewa were) and I can’t see Origi being this kind of player in the future.
In the PL a lot of the games are decided in the midfield and you need to control this area. This is maybe the biggest issue Liverpool are facing at the moment – quite similar to United to be fair – and how Klopp addresses this in the upcoming transfer periods will more or less make or break his way with the Scousers.
I don’ think that he will be able to replicate his Dortmund site and also don’t think he should aim to do so. As you have said football has moved on and this kind of tactics has been struggling recently – Atléti also is an example for that to a certain extent. However, I believe that Klopp is a brilliant coach who is capable of reinventing himself and build another team/tactic which could cause a lot of teams huge trouble.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the relative strength of Bayern.
However, your original point was:
And my point is that it hasn't been just a couple of months. He had a disastrous final season at Dortmund where they went through the first half of the campaign in severe relegation form, he didn't pull up any trees with Liverpool last season, and he's now spent two months with them, once again, in relegation form.
The expected impact when he came in last season was for them to charge up the table, and when that didn't happen it was glossed over by the cup finals. He's now taken them from a title challenge to clinging on to an increasingly desperate hope of finishing in the top 4, getting repeatedly found out by relegation battlers, out of the two cups they were in, and with just 2 league wins since the turn of the year.
Given that he spent an entire half of a season completely clueless at Dortmund, I'd be very worried if I were a Liverpool fan. Being out of the cups was supposed to free them up to playing less regularly and getting back on form, but they just conceded 3 to a team that hadn't scored so far in 2017 after a 16 day rest. More worryingly is that he doesn't seem to know what to do to solve the problem. He said after last night's game that they didn't have the rhythm they'd have liked because of the long break, but said their problem came from a lack of organisation. If he can't organise a team to play against relegation fodder during a 16 day break then how can he be expected to do it when they come up against better opposition? He relies on the players upping their game by beating the underdog drum against the better sides, but that won't work against the other 14 teams in the league and they regularly come up short against them.
That's a pretty stupid way of looking at what happened in the Bundesliga during Klopp's time at Dortmund. We had one single bad season when the team collapsed under van Gaal. We were already excellent in 11/12, reached the CL final and overall played a brilliant season, just coming short in the league against an even better Dortmund side that set a new points record and raised the bar, therefore pushing us to an even higher level, which lead to us playing the best season the club has ever seen and the treble win.
Klopp didn't just take the chance whilst it was there, that could be said for Wolfsburg in 2009. Klopp established a heavily struggling club back at the top, beat an elite side to a league title and regularly gave elite teams in Europe lots of problems including some truely sensation wins like the 4-1 home win against Real in the CL semifinal.
If you want to reduce all that only to a wikipedia trophylist like you suggest in your posts and ignore the actual story, all the emotions happening over several years, fair enough. I personally find that really sad.
Will ya wait til we're ahead of them, lost count of the amount of times we've f*cked up when teams ahead of us have dropped points.
Oh it has nothing to do with where we are. I'm talking about the scouse contingent that were running around here like giddy schoolgirls talking about how amazing Klopp was and how they might win the league. They seem to have disappeared now.
THIS!
We need to sort ourselves out first before laughing at others. We have already dropped so many points against must-win-teams (Stoke 2x, Burnley, Hull, Watford, West Ham) that we should not be pointing our fingers at someone else.
Our defence is rubbish both individually and as a collective. We won't achieve anything until it's been sorted.
The question is: will Klopp be the person to fix that issue?
The question is: will Klopp be the person to fix that issue?
Find it sad, but it's true.
01/02 Dortmund win the league by a point, Bayern finish 3rd, 2 points off top.
02/03 Bayern win the league by 16 points.
03/04 Werder Bremen win the league by 6 points, Bayern finish 2nd.
04/05 Bayern win the league by 13 points.
05/06 Bayern win the league by 5 points.
06/07 Stuttgart win the league by 2 points, Bayern finish 4th, 10 points off top.
07/08 Bayern win the league by 10 points.
08/09 Wolfsburg win the league by 2 points, Bayern finish 2nd.
09/10 Bayern win the league by 5 points.
10/11 Dortmund win the league by 7 points, Bayern finish 3rd, 10 points off top.
11/12 Dortmund win the league by 8 points, Bayern finish 2nd.
12/13 Bayern win the league by 25 points, Dortmund finish 2nd.
13/14 Bayern win the league by 19 points, Dortmund finish 2nd.
14/15 Bayern win the league by 10 points, Dortmund finish 7th, 33 points off top.
15/16 Bayern the league by 10 points, Dortmund finish 2nd.
Bayern have won 9 of the last 15 Bundesliga titles, 7 of which they won with a larger points gap between themselves and 2nd than Dortmund did in their two wins under Klopp, record points total or not. All the record points total signaled was that the top of the division was becoming notably stronger than the bottom, with that being emphasised further over the last 4 years with Bayern smashing the record and dominating. Bayern weren't at their best and weren't the challenge they could have been. That much is obvious to anyone. Bayern also didn't just have one poor season under van Gaal and that was that as their league performances show, and prior to Klopp's first title in 2011, had gone through 5 managerial changes in as many years.
As for Klopp's regular worrying of European elites, that's just a myth. Knocked out my Udinese in the 08/09 UEFA Cup 1st Round, knocked out in the Group Stage of the 10/11 Europa League, bottom of their group in the 11/12 Champions League with just one win, one-off run to the final in 12/13, knocked out by Real Madrid in the quarter-finals in 13/14, then battered by Juventus in the last 16 in 14/15. His apparent European pedigree hinges on one performance against Real Madrid, that was almost turned over in the return leg.
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I enjoy seeing Liverpool managers feck up