Keir Starmer Labour Leader

[Longshanks]

Big week this for Sir Keir's Labour, a conference on the back of that mini budget with tory government with no mandate to do what its doing.

He's got the party pretty much where he wants it, will he finally play his hand and set out some concrete policies. Or will we still be scratching our heads at the end of the week wondering what it is he and Labour currently stand for.

 

[finneh]

I highly doubt Starmer isn’t in favour of PR.

He’s keeping it as a potential negotiating tool with the SNP and Lib Dems for a confidence and supply agreement when Labour most likely can only have a minority government with the collapse of Scotland.

The SNP would never be in favour of PR. They have what? 7.4% of total MP's vs less than 3.9% of the vote?

The Lib Dems understandably would be pro; what with attaining triple the votes but attaining less than a quarter of the members.

Big week this for Sir Keir's Labour, a conference on the back of that mini budget with tory government with no mandate to do what its doing.

He's got the party pretty much where he wants it, will he finally play his hand and set out some concrete policies. Or will we still be scratching our heads at the end of the week wondering what it is he and Labour currently stand for.

I thought Kier agreed with the vast majority of Kwartangs budget? The 1% basic rate cut, the corporation tax hold, the AIA being made permanent, the £60b energy intervention, the acceleration of 138 infrastructure projects...

In truth though if he's smart he'll try to make the slither of daylight between him and Kwarteng seem like a chasm; so in that I agree.

 

[RedChip]

The SNP would never be in favour of PR. They have what? 7.4% of total MP's vs less than 3.9% of the vote?

The Lib Dems understandably would be pro; what with attaining triple the votes but attaining less than a quarter of the members.



I thought Kier agreed with the vast majority of Kwartangs budget? The 1% basic rate cut, the corporation tax hold, the AIA being made permanent, the £60b energy intervention, the acceleration of 138 infrastructure projects...

In truth though if he's smart he'll try to make the slither of daylight between him and Kwarteng seem like a chasm; so in that I agree.

Scotland already uses a form of PR for the devolved parliament and local elections.

Seems likely Scottish people would favour PR in a national referendum, even if necessarily the SNP might not.

 

[finneh]

Scotland already uses a form of PR for the devolved parliament and local elections.

Seems likely Scottish people would favour PR in a national referendum, even if necessarily the SNP might not.

I'm sure most people (or certainty a large minority) would prefer PR in a national referendum. However it's unlikely the parties who benefit from first past the post (Tories, Labour, SNP) who also collectively hold the vast majority of seats will be turkey's voting for Christmas.

 

[Jippy]

The SNP would never be in favour of PR. They have what? 7.4% of total MP's vs less than 3.9% of the vote?

The Lib Dems understandably would be pro; what with attaining triple the votes but attaining less than a quarter of the members.



I thought Kier agreed with the vast majority of Kwartangs budget? The 1% basic rate cut, the corporation tax hold, the AIA being made permanent, the £60b energy intervention, the acceleration of 138 infrastructure projects...

In truth though if he's smart he'll try to make the slither of daylight between him and Kwarteng seem like a chasm; so in that I agree.

I've not seen Starmer comment on that either way and was curious about what his response would be.

 

[711]

I'm sure most people (or certainty a large minority) would prefer PR in a national referendum.

They didn't in 2011, although it's possible the result would have been different had another form of PR been proposed.

 

[Buster15]

I'm not trying to catch you out Buster. I'd have to say that Barbara always left the impression of being a strong Socialist.

I'm not sure at what point Wilson began to struggle with Dementia but he was a Prime Minister twice-ish.

And I was not trying to catch you out either.
Like all governments in the 1970s, they struggled economically as well as a very high level of strikes. So some legislation on Unions was inevitable.
You are right about Wilson. From recollection he won 3 GE V Health 2. And he resigned shortly after.

 

[Buster15]

i don't think we massively disagree then. you wouldn't hold the wilson/callaghan governments as left wing, in the most rigid sense, but would admit that they were lightyears more left wing than what came after. which is only to say that the british people voted for a relatively left wing option in the 1970s. insofar as taxation went, it was borderline socialist.

I am glad that we have some level of agreement.
And I enjoyed our discussion.
The most important thing is that we are able to express our views openly and without recrimination.

 

[sun_tzu]

The SNP would never be in favour of PR. They have what? 7.4% of total MP's vs less than 3.9% of the vote?

Unless it was something along the lines of

Join a progressive alliance... we will introduce PR across the UK - this will also involve redrawing existing boundries and reducing the number of MP's in total... and once that is passed we will authorise indy ref 2

Think they would have to back it at that point if Lab Lib Green agreed to stand down in Scotland as part of the deal as well

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Think they would have to back it at that point if Lab Lib Green agreed to stand down in Scotland as part of the deal as well

I think the only thing we agree on is a preference for PR.

But wouldn't this stand down effectively remove democracy in Scotland?

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Big week this for Sir Keir's Labour, a conference on the back of that mini budget with tory government with no mandate to do what its doing.

He's got the party pretty much where he wants it, will he finally play his hand and set out some concrete policies. Or will we still be scratching our heads at the end of the week wondering what it is he and Labour currently stand for.

I don't know if he will be unveiling loads of concrete policies because it's not election time yet and all it does it allow the Tories to pinch them and claim them as their own ideas.

We should know more about where they stand though yeah.

 

[Buster15]

I think the only thing we agree on is a preference for PR.

But wouldn't this stand down effectively remove democracy in Scotland?

You might agree with it. But realistically, what do you really think the chances of this happening any time soon.
My view is close to zero.

 

[sun_tzu]

I think the only thing we agree on is a preference for PR.

But wouldn't this stand down effectively remove democracy in Scotland?

I dont think so if all the parties were standing on a progressive alliance PR ticket as they would be doing the same in the UK as well (and presumably offering Plaid the chance to join as well )

 

[Buster15]

He won't be unveiling loads of concrete policies because it's not election time yet and all it does it allow the Tories to pinch them and claim them as their own ideas.

We should know more about where they stand though yeah.

Yes exactly.
Starmer is very well aware of the maxim; it is not the opposition that win elections, it is the government that losses them.
So he has been quite careful not to make too many obvious mistakes, while watching the Tories do that for him.

One absolutely obvious mistake is this high risk budget along with the massive borrowing to fund tax cuts aimed to the so called rich.
People are quite rightly asking - what was the disastrous Austerity programme all about then if it isn't important to balance the books.

 

[Drifter]

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[Djemba-Djemba]

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Brilliant news.

More evidence as to why not voting Labour " because they're all as bad as each other" is so stupid.

 

[Maticmaker]

Like all governments in the 1970s, they struggled economically as well as a very high level of strikes.

Enjoyed reading your recent exchanges with other Caf contributors.

I remember marching down Oxford Road 1970 or 71 not sure now, under the AUEW banner saying, "kill the bill" (Industrial Relations Bill) that set up the Industrial Relations Court under judge (Black-Jack) Donaldson. I often wonder where all the photographs the police were taking of demonstrators went, guess I am in the 'rogues gallery' somewhere ... luckily it didn't last long, but then Thatcher came and 'black jack' began to look a lot whiter!!

I agree with your analysis, the only real Labour government (at least how I saw it) was after WW2 and the two big things they accomplished (eventually) were the setting up of the NHS and the Education Act, both these were really 'big ideas' and changed the lives of millions over the years. Blair to be fair did pump more resources back into the NHS, but he had to jettison almost 90% of left of centre ideas just to get elected.

Ironically it was the few lefty leaders like Tony Benn who opposed the EEC and Ted Heath the tory that took us in... how times change!

I blamed Harold Wilson at the time and that's why I left the Labour party, but with hindsight he had a lot to contend with, especially when he wouldn't send troops to Vietnam, don't think the Yanks ever forgave him.

You are spot on about opposition not winning power, its governments that lose it...at least in my lifetime.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

The SNP would never be in favour of PR. They have what? 7.4% of total MP's vs less than 3.9% of the vote?

The SNP are on record that they would back PR.

 

[redcucumber]

Anyone that is left wing but refuses to vote for the current Labour party because 'they are just like the Tories' must surely live a relatively privileged life. Corbyn was always the man and he was stabbed in the back by Labour, but the Tories are actively driving the country through the ground. I remember people thinking it couldn't get any more farcical than it was under Boris Johnson. Truss has been in for a matter of weeks and the country is all but on fire. Something has got to give.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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good

Wonder if nationalisation of water and energy is next

 

[Zen86]

The Tories are making it pretty easy for Labour to take up a strong position here. Let's hope they don't **** it up.

 

[Smores]

good

Wonder if nationalisation of water and energy is next

Doubtful both seem politically difficult given their respective states, don't think this Labour would be brave enough for that.

Railway nationalisation is an easy win to implement. Better than nothing I guess.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Doubtful both seem politically difficult given their respective states, don't think this Labour would be brave enough for that.

Railway nationalisation is an easy win to implement. Better than nothing I guess.

They said that they would be building green energy power stations in conjunction with industry and have part ownership.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Anyone that is left wing but refuses to vote for the current Labour party because 'they are just like the Tories' must surely live a relatively privileged life. Corbyn was always the man and he was stabbed in the back by Labour, but the Tories are actively driving the country through the ground. I remember people thinking it couldn't get any more farcical than it was under Boris Johnson. Truss has been in for a matter of weeks and the country is all but on fire. Something has got to give.

Completely and utterly agree, especially the bolded bit.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Anyone that is left wing but refuses to vote for the current Labour party because 'they are just like the Tories' must surely live a relatively privileged life. Corbyn was always the man and he was stabbed in the back by Labour, but the Tories are actively driving the country through the ground. I remember people thinking it couldn't get any more farcical than it was under Boris Johnson. Truss has been in for a matter of weeks and the country is all but on fire. Something has got to give.

I'll go one further and say that any left leaning voter that refused to vote for Labour in the last election because Corbyn or that the policies were too far to the left got us where we are now.
Yes I will vote Labour at the next election because I'd vote for anybody who could beat the Tories in my constituency.

Looking at the Labour Files, Labour purposefully self-destructed at the last election to get rid of Corbyn. Stammer & Co are implicit in the situation that we currently face as a country but I will still vote for them.

 

[Smores]

They said that they would be building green energy power stations in conjunction with industry and have part ownership.

I actually missed that announcement, can see it came out yesterday. Not sure 8bn is enough personally but it at least demonstrates direction. Hopefully part ownership isn't we fund the build and they run it for profit.

It's such an obvious policy direction for growth, security, and health. If there's one thing future generations won't mind us building up debt for its green energy.

 

[nickm]

I'll go one further and say that any left leaning voter that refused to vote for Labour in the last election because Corbyn or that the policies were too far to the left got us where we are now.
Yes I will vote Labour at the next election because I'd vote for anybody who could beat the Tories in my constituency.

Looking at the Labour Files, Labour purposefully self-destructed at the last election to get rid of Corbyn. Stammer & Co are implicit in the situation that we currently face as a country but I will still vote for them.

God I wish people would shut up about Corbyn. Two time loser, gifted the Tories their landslide, yesterday's man even before he became leader. The only thing he brings is proof of what labour must never do again. Get over him, please.

Labour wins when Tory voters switch, and Corbyn repelled them.

 

[Fully Fledged]

God I wish people would shut up about Corbyn. Two time loser, gifted the Tories their landslide, yesterday's man even before he became leader. The only thing he brings is proof of what labour must never do again. Get over him, please.

The point had nothing to do with Corbyn but more the fact that people not being willing to vote for the party then have left us where we are. As I said I would vote for anybody to get rid of the Tories. Not everybody on here can say that.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[Drifter]

God I wish people would shut up about Corbyn. Two time loser, gifted the Tories their landslide, yesterday's man even before he became leader. The only thing he brings is proof of what labour must never do again. Get over him, please.

Labour wins when Tory voters switch, and Corbyn repelled them.

All the more reason for a left wing party. Not much choice between Tory and Tory lite.

 

[Fully Fledged]

All the more reason for a left wing party. Not much choice between Tory and Tory lite.

That's one of the reasons I want PR. I can actually vote for a left leaning candidate rather tan a self confessed Blairite.

 

[Drifter]

Won't be a part of the manifesto ,but at least it is now recognized.

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[finneh]

I've not seen Starmer comment on that either way and was curious about what his response would be.

He said when it was proposed in Parliament at the time that he was against any new taxes on business.

Unless it was something along the lines of

Join a progressive alliance... we will introduce PR across the UK - this will also involve redrawing existing boundries and reducing the number of MP's in total... and once that is passed we will authorise indy ref 2

Think they would have to back it at that point if Lab Lib Green agreed to stand down in Scotland as part of the deal as well

True - if an independence referendum were packaged within the agreement they'd go for it I'm sure.

They didn't in 2011, although it's possible the result would have been different had another form of PR been proposed.

I think the Tories at the time captured the narrative that the alternative was complex and difficult to understand. Voter turnout was also terrible (42%) suggesting that the Lib Dems didn't do the best job of advocating for the changes (almost certainly helped by Labour not taking a position).

 

[Sweet Square]

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[neverdie]

God I wish people would shut up about Corbyn. Two time loser, gifted the Tories their landslide, yesterday's man even before he became leader. The only thing he brings is proof of what labour must never do again. Get over him, please.

Labour wins when Tory voters switch, and Corbyn repelled them.

were you one of the people who didn't vote labour because of corbyn? i remember a lot of them knocking about here just before 2019.

it would be easier to move on if the party had done something to address its own skullduggery but how is it supposed to condemn itself? or if starmer had decided to just not purge people and break pledges. he did the last to ensure splits continue. he preferred these kind of splits, which might not matter too much in the long run, to the other sort which he had helped to manufacture against the previous leader, of course.

was stabbed in the back by Labour, but the Tories are actively driving the country through the ground

labour enabled the tories to do that. is the conclusion you have to draw if you take the first part of your sentence seriously. the same one people now want everyone to just vote for without holding onto grudges.

 

[Fully Fledged]

labour enabled the tories to do that. is the conclusion you have to draw if you take the first part of your sentence seriously. the same one people now want everyone to just vote for without holding onto grudges.

I will do that but I hope we get PR so that I don't have to follow a fanboy for a war criminal in the long term.

 

[redcucumber]

labour enabled the tories to do that. is the conclusion you have to draw if you take the first part of your sentence seriously. the same one people now want everyone to just vote for without holding onto grudges.

So what's the solution? Don't vote for Labour and allow the Tories to do whatever the feck they like unopposed?

 

[sun_tzu]

So what's the solution? Don't vote for Labour and allow the Tories to do whatever the feck they like unopposed?

You missed put the bit about being smug and calling everybody red tories or tory scum and calling the electorate thick

 

[Pexbo]

Won't be a part of the manifesto ,but at least it is now recognized.

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This alone could shape the next 30 years more than anything else.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

You might agree with it. But realistically, what do you really think the chances of this happening any time soon.
My view is close to zero.

I think with agent Starmer at the wheel you may be right.

"Labour delegates back motion calling on party to back PR
Campaigners celebrate as conference overwhelmingly backs motion but Keir Starmer expected to ignore move"
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...gates-back-motion-calling-on-party-to-back-pr