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2023-24 Performances


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DWelbz19

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It’s starting to look like that’s the nature of ETH’s formation and tactics. There will always be one CM who plays high up the pitch, near Bruno, and gets on the ball very little. Because Mount, McT and now Mainoo have all had similarly low number of passes in that role.

It’s hard to work out why Bruno is able to make twice as many passes, though, despite playing in similar areas of the pitch.
Yep, we have seen this time and time again. It is also very clear to me those players are following the instructions, whatever they are. McTominay wouldn't be starting 10 games in the row doing exactly the same things game in game out if ETH wasn't happy with what he is doing. And now you can add Mount AND Mainoo to that argument.

It's nothing like how Arsenal/City play. We essentially replaced their #8 with a second striker (#10 generally should get much more involved in the game, while our players seem to be focused on movement/runs into the box than actually participating in the buildup).
It is a bit odd. There were a few times Mainoo was higher up the field than Fernandes. You'd think surely it'd be preferential to put Mainoo and Casemiro beside each other and put Fernandes in that 10 role, but the manager clearly wants something else.
 

Pogue Mahone

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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Yep, we have seen this time and time again. It is also very clear to me those players are following the instructions, whatever they are. McTominay wouldn't be starting 10 games in the row doing exactly the same things game in game out if ETH wasn't happy with what he is doing. And now you can add Mount AND Mainoo to that argument.

It's nothing like how Arsenal/City play. We essentially replaced their #8 with a second striker (#10 generally should get much more involved in the game, while our players seem to be focused on movement/runs into the box than actually participating in the buildup).
Fairly sure that Havertz doesn't make any more passes than Mainoo/Mount/McT, so it'd definitely similar to Arsenal.

I've no idea what the stats are like for City's more advanced midfielders.
 

Amar__

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Very good is an overstatement. He wins 56% of them.
I would say that's good for basically academy player who just started playing senior football. Do you have stats for Bruno, Mctominay, and Casemiro?
 

redcucumber

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He plays as if he's been involved in senior football for years. An absolute class act. Love r kid.
 

Grande

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Is he really short? Anyhow, makes up for it with a great leap. He is very good in aerial duels.
Actually I diagree very much on this. I love his all round game, but aerial duels are his biggest weakness at this point. Recently, I think something like 4 of the last 6 chances we’ve admitted on corners/aerials in the box, has been him being completely helpless in duels. Happened again yesterday. He is not strong enough, lacks timing yet, and the understanding of how and when to approach the duels it seems.

No wonder, as he’s young, but he’ll have to up that part of his game, no team can afford a gaping hole in their set piece defending.
 

Bobski

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Yep, we have seen this time and time again. It is also very clear to me those players are following the instructions, whatever they are. McTominay wouldn't be starting 10 games in the row doing exactly the same things game in game out if ETH wasn't happy with what he is doing. And now you can add Mount AND Mainoo to that argument.

It's nothing like how Arsenal/City play. We essentially replaced their #8 with a second striker (#10 generally should get much more involved in the game, while our players seem to be focused on movement/runs into the box than actually participating in the buildup).
This was obvious months ago I would say but so many were so invested in shitting on McTominay they couldn't allow themselves to see it.
 

bosnian_red

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Yep, we have seen this time and time again. It is also very clear to me those players are following the instructions, whatever they are. McTominay wouldn't be starting 10 games in the row doing exactly the same things game in game out if ETH wasn't happy with what he is doing. And now you can add Mount AND Mainoo to that argument.

It's nothing like how Arsenal/City play. We essentially replaced their #8 with a second striker (#10 generally should get much more involved in the game, while our players seem to be focused on movement/runs into the box than actually participating in the buildup).
Yup. Been saying it for months and our pass maps for months say the same thing, regardless of opposition, regardless of players involved. The only time it changes is when our actual instructions change like away to Liverpool where we went very defensive.

I mean, this is against 4th tier opposition with Mainoo and Casemiro in the team. If there's ever a time where you should see a clear idea of the pass map without opposition talent making it hard to implement, and no player profile problems from our side, it's here. And yet... Look at it, the 2nd pic:


It's horrific. It's two #10's, completely abandoning the midfield, and just trying to force passes from the back line into the front 5 group and try to overload them. This is the same if mctominay plays, Eriksen, plays, Amrabat plays, whoever. This is Ten Hags system, this is his coaching direction to tell our players to be in these positions. It's suicidal, it actively inhibits our build up play, it actively makes it impossible for us to control games, and it actively makes it easy for the opposition to both press us, and break on us when they force a turnover. It's such a ridiculously dumb tactic and yet he keeps persisting with it. Maybe if it was a one off, you could excuse it. But it's happened far too often now and there is no way that this isn't tactical I struction. He just expects them to be flawless despite being set up to fail.
 

bosnian_red

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It’s starting to look like that’s the nature of ETH’s formation and tactics. There will always be one CM who plays high up the pitch, near Bruno, and gets on the ball very little. Because Mount, McT and now Mainoo have all had similarly low number of passes in that role.

It’s hard to work out why Bruno is able to make twice as many passes, though, despite playing in similar areas of the pitch.
Just by nature of who he is, players are gonna look for Bruno to be the focal point to receive the ball, and ten hag probably asking the other player to be an off the ball threat and just work hard all around but not help out with build up play or any control.

But yeah the positioning on the pitch of those midfielders doesn't change regardless of using mctominay, mount, mainoo, amrabat, Casemiro. Nobody can claim it's down to the players if you get the same result from everybody. Either everybody is understanding Ten Hags instructions incorrectly, or they're doing it right and the instructions themselves just suck.
 

Pogue Mahone

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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Just by nature of who he is, players are gonna look for Bruno to be the focal point to receive the ball, and ten hag probably asking the other player to be an off the ball threat and just work hard all around but not help out with build up play or any control.

But yeah the positioning on the pitch of those midfielders doesn't change regardless of using mctominay, mount, mainoo, amrabat, Casemiro. Nobody can claim it's down to the players if you get the same result from everybody. Either everybody is understanding Ten Hags instructions incorrectly, or they're doing it right and the instructions themselves just suck.
Or the players suck?

Swap the Casemiro we’ve been watching this season for a more mobile and reliable DM and I’m sure we’d look a hell of a lot better. In the same way we look better with Martinez helping to progress the ball out from the back (at least we did last night until he, understandably, tired and became less influential)

Obviously it’s the managers job to get the most out of the players he does have available and share the blame if the players we sign aren’t good enough as cover when we get a couple of injuries. But I can’t get on board with this notion that the way he sets his team up can not and will not ever work. It’s nowhere near as radical or inherently flawed as many of ye seem to think.
 

bosnian_red

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Or the players suck?

Swap the Casemiro we’ve been watching this season for a more mobile and reliable DM and I’m sure we’d look a hell of a lot better. In the same way we look better with Martinez helping to progress the ball out from the back (at least we did last night until he, understandably, tired and became less influential)

Obviously it’s the managers job to get the most out of the players he does have available and share the blame if the players we sign aren’t good enough as cover when we get a couple of injuries. But I can’t get on board with this notion that the way he sets his team up can not and will not ever work. It’s nowhere near as radical or inherently flawed as many of ye seem to think.
Just look at that pass map 2 posts above! We see it all the time! You can't have that little control to be a top team. And that's against a league 2 side. If the tactic actively inhibits controlling a game against league 2 opposition, how the feck do you plan on controlling against better sides? It's not a "the players suck" question, because there is an enormous gap between our players and those of fecking Newport... It's not a normal 433, it's in fact a 415 formation how we actually play. And we see the same system on a weekly basis, we see it whoever we play there. At some point, you need to make a system that makes players better, and not just demand the best players in the world in every position just to control a game against lower league opposition.
 

Pogue Mahone

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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Just look at that pass map 2 posts above! We see it all the time! You can't have that little control to be a top team. And that's against a league 2 side. If the tactic actively inhibits controlling a game against league 2 opposition, how the feck do you plan on controlling against better sides? It's not a "the players suck" question, because there is an enormous gap between our players and those of fecking Newport... It's not a normal 433, it's in fact a 415 formation how we actually play. And we see the same system on a weekly basis, we see it whoever we play there. At some point, you need to make a system that makes players better, and not just demand the best players in the world in every position just to control a game against lower league opposition.
I genuinely have no idea why you are so triggered by that pass map.
 

bosnian_red

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I genuinely have no idea why you are so triggered by that pass map.
Because we see the same shit every game? It completely abandons the midfield and represents what I'm trying to describe on the pitch. 1 deep midfielder asked to do far more than anybody can handle, and then 2 #10's pushed way up. It's a system that doesn't stand a chance at controlling games, and ten hag even said he is looking for quick transition and not control. It's actively the reason why we are so bad defensively and why we concede so many chances. There's very few sides who have conceded more shots than us, we conceded 17 to a 4th league side FFS.

And to add... If you see the same level of underperformance every game, no matter who the personnel are, no matter the opposition... it's a tactical issue, not a personnel issue. Every. Single. Time. I can't get on board with "players suck" or "we don't have the players to play the way he wants", when the actual reason for this shit play is just Ten Hags tactics being suicidal, and his tactics being the reason why we just play the way we are.
 

Teja

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It is a bit odd. There were a few times Mainoo was higher up the field than Fernandes. You'd think surely it'd be preferential to put Mainoo and Casemiro beside each other and put Fernandes in that 10 role, but the manager clearly wants something else.
The system is that there's a single pivot (DM), an advanced #8 and a #10 regardless of who happens to play at a given time and we've stuck to it this season so there's no hope that it'll change only hope that better personnel will make it work. The build up system is:

----- Varane -- Martinez -- Shaw -----
------------ Dalot --- Casemiro ------------
-------------------------------- Mainoo ---------
------------- Bruno -------------------------------

Mainoo in this system plays fairly advanced, part of his role is to get in the box and score. It's the same role Eriksen or Mount would play in the team. I'd much rather have him replace Casemiro and play next to an actual #8 instead.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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It’s starting to look like that’s the nature of ETH’s formation and tactics. There will always be one CM who plays high up the pitch, near Bruno, and gets on the ball very little. Because Mount, McT and now Mainoo have all had similarly low number of passes in that role.

It’s hard to work out why Bruno is able to make twice as many passes, though, despite playing in similar areas of the pitch.
Bruno excels in moving around half spaces and being in a space to get on the ball high up, he even goes as far wide as LW/RW and gets on the ball, I think that means for other CM has to either make runs into the box or remain central, that's why probably why the likes of Mount/McTominay get less on the ball, the exception is Eriksen who actually drops deep as he can't maintain the high energy needed to be an advanced CM.

Mainoo does get on the ball but the game against Newport felt like we played too direct and too vertical which caused us to lose the ball a lot, we saw our deepest players like Martinez, Shaw and Dalot launch balls into Antony and Garnacho
 

MadDogg

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This was obvious months ago I would say but so many were so invested in shitting on McTominay they couldn't allow themselves to see it.
There's two very separate issues there.

Issue one - the positions that McTominay (and Mount when he played there) are generally taking up. This is on ETH, not the player.

Issue two - taking up those more advanced positions doesn't mean that they should be largely anonymous and offer very little help to the midfield. Obviously they won't be as involved as a proper #8, but they should still be getting involved a hell of a lot more than they are. I can't accept that ETH actively wants that player not getting involved as it simply doesn't make sense. McTominay has always had that issue no matter what position he plays so it's not like it's something that he's only just started doing (although it's even worse in this position). Eriksen has had some games where he's played that position and still got quite heavily involved. In saying that, he's had other games where he hasn't been heavily involved, so take from that what you will. I tend to think it was more his physical limitations against stronger opposition meaning he couldn't do it, rather than being told not to. But I guess I could be wrong.
 
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Gordon S

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We`ve all seen it before but i almost get surprised whenever i watch comps like this. How can the young fecker be so bloody composed?
 

suheilsworld

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Hope he stays injury-free and he will be immense for us in a season or two. It would be a travesty if we don't build a team around him at CM. A great talent and so bloody composed. I get more worried about Casemiro on the ball than him. He has a calming presence about him when on the ball.
 

Zlatans Knee

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If we manage to recruit some decent players in the summer, I can't wait to watch him be the main guy for this team.

Imagine him next to some good players, say...Bellingham, Rice, Kane, Saka.....if he carries on like this he will be in the England squad within a year.
 

M16Red

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Yup. Been saying it for months and our pass maps for months say the same thing, regardless of opposition, regardless of players involved. The only time it changes is when our actual instructions change like away to Liverpool where we went very defensive.

I mean, this is against 4th tier opposition with Mainoo and Casemiro in the team. If there's ever a time where you should see a clear idea of the pass map without opposition talent making it hard to implement, and no player profile problems from our side, it's here. And yet... Look at it, the 2nd pic:


It's horrific. It's two #10's, completely abandoning the midfield, and just trying to force passes from the back line into the front 5 group and try to overload them. This is the same if mctominay plays, Eriksen, plays, Amrabat plays, whoever. This is Ten Hags system, this is his coaching direction to tell our players to be in these positions. It's suicidal, it actively inhibits our build up play, it actively makes it impossible for us to control games, and it actively makes it easy for the opposition to both press us, and break on us when they force a turnover. It's such a ridiculously dumb tactic and yet he keeps persisting with it. Maybe if it was a one off, you could excuse it. But it's happened far too often now and there is no way that this isn't tactical I struction. He just expects them to be flawless despite being set up to fail.
That passing network has been the same for a while now hasn't it!

I just don't understand why he's (EtH) is keeping on with this positioning - I have the feeling it's for the captain, but to have two tens is mental.

Do you have last years? Sorry I don't have X or twitter whatever.

That cluster in the 10 zone, is just... sh*t really, zero plus points in that positioning penetration area. I can't figure out if that is a Bruno problem or speed of passing.
 

Nas-JR

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That passing network has been the same for a while now hasn't it!

I just don't understand why he's (EtH) is keeping on with this positioning - I have the feeling it's for the captain, but to have two tens is mental.

Do you have last years? Sorry I don't have X or twitter whatever.

That cluster in the 10 zone, is just... sh*t really, zero plus points in that positioning penetration area. I can't figure out if that is a Bruno problem or speed of passing.
Totally agree, my biggest frustration with this year. It's why you can never tell which is which between mcT and Hojlund when they both play cause they literally occupy the same space. I would love for someone to explain the logic! It makes no sense. We have 5 players almost always committed to the last line of the oppo defense yet we barely make chances and have the 18th lowest number of goals. It's unforgivable.

Even when accounting for Bruno, it makes no sense. Play mainoo and casi as a base with bruno roaming and no one will have any issues with his positional ill-discipline and he would make just as many chances surely?! We'd be so much more controlled in the centre too.
 

roonster09

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His composure is unreal, just amazing. Goal is already goal of the month contender.