Kyle Rittenhouse | Now crowdfunding LOLsuits against Whoopi Goldberg, LeBron James, and The Young Turks

shamans

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For me, if he was being shot at, then he had the right to shoot back. But he was just being chased. No indication he was gonna get murdered (the armed mob could have just shot him at any moment right?).

That's why for me, proportionally speaking, he went overboard with the self defence.

He shot these people, because sadly, his mind has been brainwashed. Police, guns and violence are his religion. He probably assumes everyone out there has a mind filled with violent intents towards fellow humans just as him.
Just be honest, what would you do in that situation surrounded by those guys with what was being done to him?

Don't tell me you wouldn't be there in the first place because I agree with everything about this kid being a brainwashed twat but now that you are in this situation, what other option is there?
 

shamans

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If he was in fact saving his own life, then obviously not. But that only happened in his own mind though. In reality, he murdered several people on the assumption he was gonna get murdered, when there was no clear indication of it. And all of this happened because he decided to play vigilante.
At what point would it be certain to know that said person was going to kill him or not?
 

George Owen

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Just be honest, what would you do in that situation surrounded by those guys with what was being done to him?

Don't tell me you wouldn't be there in the first place because I agree with everything about this kid being a brainwashed twat but now that you are in this situation, what other option is there?
How can I know that? With my current mindset, I would just take a beating/surrender 100% before shooting anyone. At 17yo, who knows. But doesn't matter what I would have done. Proportionality in self defence, it's quite important, because otherwise, at which point self defence ends?

I might have been there. At 17 years old I had many shady views as well.

At what point would it be certain to know that said person was going to kill him or not?
When you start getting shot by the angry armed mob. Not when just chased.
 

Sky1981

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How can I know that? With my current mindset, I would just take a beating/surrender 100% before shooting anyone. At 17yo, who knows. But doesn't matter what I would have done. Proportionality in self defence, it's quite important, because otherwise, at which point self defence ends?

I might have been there. At 17 years old I had many shady views as well.



When you start getting shot by the angry armed mob. Not when just chased.
If this is a mugging or bar fight then yes, I'd probably just run or punch a few. But A skateboard to my head? feck that.

There'a video on store owner being kicked in the head during the riot, can't find it but it's posted here. NO way i'm risking myself to that in this instances. Not if I have a gun with me. If I sense so much they're gonna jump on me, I'd pull my gun out and tell them to stop, they advance I shoot.
 

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The evidence doesn’t suggest that though. Nothing about his behaviour that night pointed to him looking for someone to kill. The problems started when he was attacked.
This problem began when a 17 year old drove to a town he didn't live in with an assault rifle to reenact call of duty instead of letting the police do their job.
 

sun_tzu

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This problem began when a 17 year old drove to a town he didn't live in with an assault rifle to reenact call of duty instead of letting the police do their job.
I think in most countries this simply wouldnt be ok


Whilst this is normalised there is going to be issues

that said if sandy hook didn't get people to think yeah perhaps we need to have less guns in circulation and instead got people to say yeah well if the teachers all had guns and or security had bigger guns then it wouldnt happen then its a problem I dont think is going to be solved... yay... go Murica
 

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Throughout this thread there been a real problem with people separating the stupid decision Rittenhouse made prior to the killings and the split second decisions he made in the moment.

Do I think he was an idiot for attending a politically charged riot/protest with a deadly weapon? Yes. Was he justified in shooting his attackers in self defence? By American law, yes. We cannot apply European views to this as they simply do not match up with the laws in the US.

Rittenhouse probably deserves some sort of punishment, and he'll likely get that on some lesser charge, but all evidence supports his plea of self defence.

Is this a bad thing for the US in general? IMO absolutely. He will likely be held up now as some right wing matyr regardless of the outcome of this trial.
 

b82REZ

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This problem began when a 17 year old drove to a town he didn't live in with an assault rifle to reenact call of duty instead of letting the police do their job.
And for that he is guilty and will likely (hopefully) get some punishment for it. But he has a solid case for self defence for the events that occurred afterwards.
 

harms

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If this is a mugging or bar fight then yes, I'd probably just run or punch a few. But A skateboard to my head? feck that.
Again — while I'll try to ignore the first point (going there with the rifle), he still had an option of dropping the rifle completely if he was going to surrender. That's a huge bet, of course, but I'd still be willing to bet that people would unlikely go to shoot an unarmed man or to kick him in the head with a skateboard (which is, I guess, the only understandable bit of violence that I've seen in the episode — when you see a clearly antagonising character with a rifle that has just shot somebody, after all of the stories about mass shootings in US and in the world (Breivik mostly), you'd want to neutralise him as quick as possible).
 
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Not at all but that doesn't mean teens with assault rifles get to play real life call of duty.
It should tell you that 'letting the police do their job' is a nonsensical argument in this context. He had no less right to be there than the people setting buildings and cars on fire.
 

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It should tell you that 'letting the police do their job' is a nonsensical argument in this context. He had no less right to be there than the people setting buildings and cars on fire.
Only an American or someone who has watched too many John Wick movies could say that nonsense and mean it. Allowing teenage vigilantes to roam the streets with assault rifles is simply insane.
 

Sparky_Hughes

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Only an American or someone who has watched too many John Wick movies could say that nonsense and mean it. Allowing teenage vigilantes to roam the streets with assault rifles is simply insane.
Spot on, that country is utterly fecked, and I can't see any way back for it. Too much "my rights, me me me" bullshit above everything else.
 
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Only an American or someone who has watched too many John Wick movies could say that nonsense and mean it. Allowing teenage vigilantes to roam the streets with assault rifles is simply insane.
It's quite clear you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. A lot of good arguments have been made against Rittenhouse in this thread, but your posts are by far the worst. Completely biased, bombastic, and ignorant of the context.
 

Wibble

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It's quite clear you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. A lot of good arguments have been made against Rittenhouse in this thread, but your posts are by far the worst. Completely biased, bombastic, and ignorant of the context.
No. You just don't agree.
 

Rado_N

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He drove to another state, armed himself with an assault rifle, and walked around with that assault rifle at the ready position with his finger over the trigger.

If he doesn’t do those things those people don’t die.

Context.
 

shamans

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Only an American or someone who has watched too many John Wick movies could say that nonsense and mean it. Allowing teenage vigilantes to roam the streets with assault rifles is simply insane.
Spot on, that country is utterly fecked, and I can't see any way back for it. Too much "my rights, me me me" bullshit above everything else.
Not sure if either of you live in America but the reality is a little different than the hysteria online. I'm all for way more gun control and regulation as we sure as hell need it but you should know

1) the AR-15 style rifles are not in any way "assault rifles" despite what media may have you believe. You'd think they're some sort of M-16 or AK 47 with how it's being discussed

2) America is huge and if you haven't lived here you may not be able to fathom the size. Police presence can only be dense enough to a certain limit and in a vast majority of the country side/rural areas it's not feasible to wait for the police in emergency situations.
 

shamans

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He drove to another state, armed himself with an assault rifle, and walked around with that assault rifle at the ready position with his finger over the trigger.

If he doesn’t do those things those people don’t die.

Context.
You literally added the last part about finger over trigger.

I think those people/thugs also don't die if they don't smash heads with skateboards.
 

Rado_N

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1) the AR-15 style rifles are not in any way "assault rifles" despite what media may have you believe. You'd think they're some sort of M-16 or AK 47 with how it's being discussed
Curious that the “not an assault rifle” AR-15 was specifically named as a banned weapon in the assault weapons ban back in the 90’s.
 

Rado_N

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If this is the ready position you haven't been to the range have you
Call it whatever the feck semantic technical thing you want - that rifle is ready to be used and he’s extremely threatening.

Also mind you back from moving those goalposts around.
 

KirkDuyt

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1: "if I had my AR, I would shoot these people".
2: "shoots people with AR"
3: "???"
4: "self defense".


What did I miss? Is premeditated self defense a thing?
 

Sparky_Hughes

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Not sure if either of you live in America but the reality is a little different than the hysteria online. I'm all for way more gun control and regulation as we sure as hell need it but you should know

1) the AR-15 style rifles are not in any way "assault rifles" despite what media may have you believe. You'd think they're some sort of M-16 or AK 47 with how it's being discussed

2) America is huge and if you haven't lived here you may not be able to fathom the size. Police presence can only be dense enough to a certain limit and in a vast majority of the country side/rural areas it's not feasible to wait for the police in emergency situations.
Makes absolutely no difference what kind of gun it is, the fact vast numbers of people think its necessary to have a lethal weapon amd that is treated as normal is fecking stupid.
 

fergieisold

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Call it whatever the feck semantic technical thing you want - that rifle is ready to be used and he’s extremely threatening.

Also mind you back from moving those goalposts around.
that’s not what the evidence presented has shown. Even people testifying for the prosecution agreed he was not threatening anyone.

from what I’ve heard so far, all the intimidation and eventually attack came from the mob.
 

Mike Smalling

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1) the AR-15 style rifles are not in any way "assault rifles" despite what media may have you believe. You'd think they're some sort of M-16 or AK 47 with how it's being discussed
Is this argument purely based on the fact that the AR-15 doesn't come with a fully automatic setting? If so, that is incredibly weak. Aren't they similar to the military version in pretty much all other aspects than that? Range, precision, caliber, rounds in magazine, attachment options, etc. is the same right?
 

fergieisold

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1: "if I had my AR, I would shoot these people".
2: "shoots people with AR"
3: "???"
4: "self defense".


What did I miss? Is premeditated self defense a thing?
comment 1 was from an earlier incident. The judge won’t allow that into the court as he doesn’t see the similarities with the things he’s being tried for that took place in a matter of seconds.
 

KirkDuyt

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that’s not what the evidence presented has shown. Even people testifying for the prosecution agreed he was not threatening anyone.

from what I’ve heard so far, all the intimidation and eventually attack came from the mob.
Isn't threatening subjective? I find a fat 17 Yr old walking around with a rifle threatening as feck. 17 year olds are fecking idiots.
 
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KirkDuyt

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comment 1 was from an earlier incident. The judge won’t allow that into the court as he doesn’t see the similarities with the things he’s being tried for that took place in a matter of seconds.
Yeah fair enough, and I know my perspective is all wrong as a European libtard, but I just can't wrap my head around self defense laws that you lot have. This scenario resulting in him being not guilty to at least manslaughter or 2nd degree murder is insane to me.

He said I want to shoot people and shot people, albeit a bit later.
 

Skizzo

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Call it whatever the feck semantic technical thing you want - that rifle is ready to be used and he’s extremely threatening.

Also mind you back from moving those goalposts around.
Where his finger is placed is where it’s trained to be when you’re not ready to fire. Same thing with a handgun and keeping your finger outside the trigger guard and along the slide until ready to fire. “Ready position” would also be the rifle trained up on target of something.
 

Solius

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If this is the ready position you haven't been to the range have you
He said finger over the trigger. When he posted that picture which literally shows his finger over the trigger you've then pivoted to 'that's not the ready position'. Why are people like this? Just say oh ok fair enough you're right. It's not hard.

Also I'd bet the majority of people have never fired a gun and are unable to tell the difference between that and the 'ready position'.
 

KirkDuyt

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He said finger over the trigger. When he posted that picture which literally shows his finger over the trigger you've then pivoted to 'that's not the ready position'. Why are people like this? Just say oh ok fair enough you're right. It's not hard.

Also I'd bet the majority of people have never fired a gun and are unable to tell the difference between that and the 'ready position'.
This is true, see I was quite sure this is the ready position