- Joined
- Oct 22, 2010
- Messages
- 21,784
Where did I disagree with increasing freedom?
Where did I disagree with increasing freedom?
I don’t really care where she was raised, giving me a back story on someone I don’t know seems to be your way of squirming under the spotlight. ‘How dare my mum be highlighted, she’s my mum!’Where the feck did I say i was fine with it? We have very heated arguments all the time. I said I don't love her any less because she makes casual remarks that today are seen as racist. (But weren't not so long ago) You come across as the type that scours twitter day and night to lecture people on how terrible they are.
Yes he did. He literally said I should think less of her.
My mum was born and raised in Belgian Congo. It's very easy for us to judge, but her whole worldview is based on decades of misinformation.
I argue with her all the time. This pedantic indignation towards anyone that doesn't become ultra woke overnight is just disgusting though. And exactly the reason why so many people never vote left (even if it's in their best interest).
I think Botim already explained that they have very heated arguments about this topic all the time. I am not sure what else you expect in this situation. To my mind, Botim is not only calling out his mother, but also able to factor in the circumstances. It's not a necessity to think less about someone, because they have different cultural, educational, etc. background. It's much harder to change when you get older.I don’t really care where she was raised, giving me a back story on someone I don’t know seems to be your way of squirming under the spotlight. ‘How dare my mum be highlighted, she’s my mum!’
I care that you don’t see racist remarks as a reason to think less of someone. You say she’s had decades of misinformation, yet you’re fine with her making casual remarks cause you don’t want to think less of her. That’s a you problem with regards to family dynamics,
It’s clearly conditional because she’s your mum, which I’m sure all of us can understand, but you should still think less of someone because they say racist things. If you don’t then on a certain level, it’s okay to be racist cause you love them, which is a problem.
Everyone should be called out on racism, homophobia or any other derogatory remarks and opinions, regardless of who they are and regardless of how they got here, otherwise we allow acceptance and that stops big changes from actually happening. That’s not ‘super woke’, it’s just what needs to happen. If you can’t be arsed and give it conditions, that’s your problem.
Given the ‘years of disinformation’ don’t you think it’ll take extra effort to change that?
It’s still conditional.I think Botim already explained that they have very heated arguments about this topic all the time. I am not sure what else you expect in this situation. To my mind, Botim is not only calling out his mother, but also able to factor in the circumstances. It's not a necessity to think less about someone, because they have different cultural, educational, etc. background. It's much harder to change when you get older.
Honestly I don't believe that anyone is a perfect person. I also don't think that you should think less of someone in an argument about different opinions. I can still respect my colleagues or my professors, and disagree with them on several questions. It would be also unwise to think less of someone in an argument, because it would most likely trigger their psychological defence mechanism.It’s still conditional.
By the very definition, not thinking less of someone allows acceptance.
There shouldn’t be acceptance.
Understanding? Of course, but it shouldn’t stop you from thinking less of someone and challenging the stereotype that family members are above derision.
It makes no sense that you’d have heated arguments with someone and yet not think less of them, otherwise you wouldn’t argue with them. Pedantry perhaps, but the moment you try and change them in an argument about opinions, you’re automatically thinking less of them. You don’t argue with a perfect person do you?
Forgive me for being disappointed in anyone for having shit opinions and not just submitting to ‘I love my mum’ tropes. DO think less of someone for being a casual racist.
That attitude is very narrow minded, intolerant and toxic. It‘s also not true at all.It makes no sense that you’d have heated arguments with someone and yet not think less of them, otherwise you wouldn’t argue with them. Pedantry perhaps, but the moment you try and change them in an argument about opinions, you’re automatically thinking less of them. You don’t argue with a perfect person do you?
Do you have a reading disorder?I don’t really care where she was raised, I care that you don’t see racist remarks as a reason to think less of someone. You say she’s had decades of misinformation, yet you’re fine with her making casual remarks cause you don’t want to think less of her.
I think we read that line differently then.Yes he did. He literally said I should think less of her.
My mum was born and raised in Belgian Congo. It's very easy for us to judge, but her whole worldview is based on decades of misinformation.
I argue with her all the time. This pedantic indignation towards anyone that doesn't become ultra woke overnight is just disgusting though. And exactly the reason why so many people never vote left (even if it's in their best interest).
No. I don’t have a reading disorder. You seem to not want to own your words. You said you don’t think less of her, I’m asking why not? You say you argue with her, why if you don’t think less of her? On some level you are fine with it because you’re giving her a pass by not thinking less of her for it, even if that comes under the mask of understanding people don’t change overnight.Do you have a reading disorder?
I literally just said I'm not fine with and I confront her with it. Her past is very relevant though, because she was taught that we were helping the poor Africans.
Acting like you're better than everyone else because you think you have all the answers is way more disgusting than an old lady making a misguided remark out of ignorance imo.
I am very disgusted by people eating animals, yet I respect others and the fact that people don't change overnight. Every single person has plenty of prejudice. And they deserve to be called out for it, but not disrespected/thought of less than others.
Why do you argue with people?That attitude is very narrow minded, intolerant and toxic. It‘s also not true at all.
I believe so.We also might have a different interpretation of the "thinking less of someone" expression. For me, it sounds very arrogant.
To value the person in question less than previously. So, I think that we have the same concept about the term. However, we disagree on that it is always necessary to think less of someone if you would like to change their opinion. That's fine as I understand your viewpoint and you explained yourself very well.I believe so.
I believe that when someone says racist things, I’m well within my rights to think less of them. I don’t believe there’s a condition in that, whether they’re someone I love or someone I hate or anyone else. It could be for a brief moment but the image I have of them is changed.
If I then argue with them, it could be (amongst other things) because I’m trying to help them, and that could very well be because I love them, but that notion of trying to help is driven through the response of thinking less of them. I don’t want to think less of certain people in my life but when they do something bad, I do.
When I realised my mum, dad, sister, grandparents, best friends had opinions that I didn’t like, understand or respect (and respect for an opinion is earnt, not given automatically), I argued with them, I suspect I was disappointed that it shattered my idea of them. It’s hard to admit at first that I absolutely do think less of them but that’s driven through the information I’ve received about who I should trust and respect and that’s the same level of understanding mentioned when saying people don’t change overnight.
It also does not mean in the slightest that I know all the answers or that I’m better than them.
What’s your interpretation of it?
So don't take them. As far as I know it isn't compulsory.I wouldn’t want my children looking at the pridetrain. At least not as it looks like here in Sweden.
So if a friend reveals that they are a racists or homophobe or white supremacists or whatever it is narrow minded, intolerant and toxic to think less of them than before you discovered they had despicable views? I don't think so.That attitude is very narrow minded, intolerant and toxic. It‘s also not true at all.
What happened to the free speech of the LGBT+ people you relish in seeing getting attacked by the far right?Correct.
You didn't answer any of my questions either. But no, I use the term "left" for the policital left. And the people who initiated this campaign against Hungary clearly belong to the left. And of course it will be called "whataboutism" but I will add anyway, these people are very selective in deciding which human rights cause they support.You're not answering my question. You use 'the left' as a pejorative term for anyone who stands up for human rights, dismissing them as a fringe concern.
Does the rainbow make you feel uncomfortable?
I guess there are many good reasons to argue with someone.Why do you argue with people?
Relevant part was the one I quoted. He essentially said that if you argue with someone, you think less of this person. Which is absolute nonsense. I argue - mainly businesswise - on a daily basis and never did it actually cross my mind to think less of someone for the sole reason of arguing with them. Having different opinions about stuff is normal and simply has to do with the huge variety of individuals we humans are. Stating that you're in need of a bubble or otherwise think less of people just shows how narrow minded, intolerant and toxic someone is, yes. You think less of someone because of specific opinions/aspects of an opinion maybe, but not just because it's not completely congruent with your own.So if a friend reveals that they are a racists or homophobe or white supremacists or whatever it is narrow minded, intolerant and toxic to think less of them than before you discovered they had despicable views? I don't think so.
I guess it depends on if it matters and if so how it matters. It also depends what you mean by think less of and again that will be context driven.I guess there are many good reasons to argue with someone.
Relevant part was the one I quoted. He essentially said that if you argue with someone, you think less of this person. Which is absolute nonsense. I argue - mainly businesswise - on a daily basis and never did it actually cross my mind to think less of someone for the sole reason of arguing with them. Having different opinions about stuff is normal and simply has to do with the huge variety of individuals we humans are. Stating that you're in need of a bubble or otherwise think less of people just shows how narrow minded, intolerant and toxic someone is, yes. You think less of someone because of specific opinions/aspects of an opinion maybe, but not just because it's not completely congruent with your own.
To answer your specific question: It's perfectly fine to think less of a person because of their views, if those views are despicable (very subjective btw). It's not rational, social or practical to think less of someone just because you have a different opinion and you're arguing with him. Why on earth would I think less of someone just because he's not seeing things as I do?
The difference is we are currently in the Euros. Hungary is part of the EU. Why should they get the benefits of that when they are passing laws that are very much against the EU’s main values/principles.The recent campaign against Hungary was done by the left. Homosexuality is illegal in Qatar for example. There will be many more teams from countries with similar laws playing the next world cup. Should we then turn every game in a political demonstration? How would you react it some of these countries show their solidarity with Assange or against abortion or what not before the game? Is this the way you want football to go?
It was discussed already, Mr. Whataboutismer.What happened to the free speech of the LGBT+ people you relish in seeing getting attacked by the far right?
Sorry, but I don't think this is reasonable. Mainly because you seem to take no account of the elementary difference between family relations and general social interaction. He stated clearly that he argued with his mother over this a lot. That's a good deal more than a lot of people do when it comes to parents' failings. Most just roll their eyes and get on with dinner. You have the parents you have. If you want to have a family, you ultimately have to take what you get, you're not in a position to demand they have to be certain things.I don’t really care where she was raised, giving me a back story on someone I don’t know seems to be your way of squirming under the spotlight. ‘How dare my mum be highlighted, she’s my mum!’
I care that you don’t see racist remarks as a reason to think less of someone. You say she’s had decades of misinformation, yet you’re fine with her making casual remarks cause you don’t want to think less of her. That’s a you problem with regards to family dynamics,
It’s clearly conditional because she’s your mum, which I’m sure all of us can understand, but you should still think less of someone because they say racist things. If you don’t then on a certain level, it’s okay to be racist cause you love them, which is a problem.
Everyone should be called out on racism, homophobia or any other derogatory remarks and opinions, regardless of who they are and regardless of how they got here, otherwise we allow acceptance and that stops big changes from actually happening. That’s not ‘super woke’, it’s just what needs to happen. If you can’t be arsed and give it conditions, that’s your problem.
Given the ‘years of disinformation’ don’t you think it’ll take extra effort to change that?
Crikey Kamprad. Don't go to Japan then. They're very conservative but have naked festivals and Kanamara Matsuri, the penis festival where they erect a giant phallus in the town square and old ladies suck on penis-shaped ice-creams.Well then leave the sexualiziation out of it. If they can. No need to dress in BDSM clothes, throwing dildos and showing penises. Can they do that?
I’d happily do all three just to upset you.Well then leave the sexualiziation out of it. If they can. No need to dress in BDSM clothes, throwing dildos and showing penises. Can they do that?
Still better than any non-straight person in Hungary.No, the rainbow in itself doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. But this campain against Hungary did. They were our guests in Munich and were treated very poorly.
He did say he argued with his mother, it was more the idea that you wouldn’t think less of someone, despite racism, purely because she’s your mum.Sorry, but I don't think this is reasonable. Mainly because you seem to take no account of the elementary difference between family relations and general social interaction. He stated clearly that he argued with his mother over this a lot. That's a good deal more than a lot of people do when it comes to parents' failings. Most just roll their eyes and get on with dinner. You have the parents you have. If you want to have a family, you ultimately have to take what you get, you're not in a position to demand they have to be certain things.
They turned up with a sign that literally had a Red Cross through two gay people and allegedly one of them was doing a Nazi salute behind the goal. Germany responded with rainbow flags for all. How exactly were they treated very poorly?You didn't answer any of my questions either. But no, I use the term "left" for the policital left. And the people who initiated this campaign against Hungary clearly belong to the left. And of course it will be called "whataboutism" but I will add anyway, these people are very selective in deciding which human rights cause they support.
No, the rainbow in itself doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. But this campain against Hungary did. They were our guests in Munich and were treated very poorly.
Not to get too personal, but frankly I think the point here isn't what anyone thinks about racism (where it seems to me views are much the same), but rather what you think and expect about how you deal with family (ie, parents). You only get one pair, you know. And you can't choose them. And they're not always in every respect admirable. And mostly, you can't change them. So, if you want to have a close relationship with them, and have someone in your life who is prepared to love and support you even when you don't earn it, that works in both directions and requires you to practice tolerance of shortcomings to a completely different degree than you do with friends, acquaintances or colleagues, of whom there is a practically limitless supply.He did say he argued with his mother, it was more the idea that you wouldn’t think less of someone, despite racism, purely because she’s your mum.
If she’s racist then you should. Doesn’t matter who it is.
Giving people qualifications and passes allows for tolerance and acceptance and racism (or homophobia as the thread is about) should never be tolerated or accepted.
I fully accept if she’s come from a certain background/generation/belief system then you make allowances when challenging those views but I can remember the disappointment when I found out my mum was a bigot, I couldn’t not think less of her for that.
Depends how much you want family and the traditional idea of it, which again is introjected values and messages passed down through centuries.Not to get too personal, but frankly I think the point here isn't what anyone thinks about racism (where it seems to me views are much the same), but rather what you think and expect about how you deal with family (ie, parents). You only get one pair, you know. And you can't choose them. And they're not always in every respect admirable. And mostly, you can't change them. So, if you want to have a close relationship with them, and have someone in your life who is prepared to love and support you even when you don't earn it, that works in both directions and requires you to practice tolerance of shortcomings to a completely different degree than you do with friends, acquaintances or colleagues, of whom there is a practically limitless supply.
If you think the right way of going about it is instead to set some standards and hold everyone to them, then life may hand you some rough lessons.
I don't know why you have to be so black and white about this. @Botim already explains that he/she challenges his/her mom about this, so he doesn't condone it. Yet he still loves her, cause it's a bond going back to his birth that's deeper than one aspect of her thinking. You guys seem to have gotten totally hung up on what it means exactly to 'think less of someone', but that's just semantics; it's not what this discussion is really about.Depends how much you want family and the traditional idea of it, which again is introjected values and messages passed down through centuries.
Or you could continue to call people out for racism, homophobia, et al.
I’m fine with us dropping the idea that we have to be civil with antiquated views because they’re coming from family members, that’s an idea anchored in the past that they come from.
Either you don’t condone hate speech, or you actually do because someone you love spews it out, choose one.
During their anthem a guy ran onto the pitch with a rainbow flag and some spectators applauded it. But it started way earlierer with the media coverage and the behaviour of some politicians.How exactly were they treated very poorly?
Good luck with that.Depends how much you want family and the traditional idea of it, which again is introjected values and messages passed down through centuries.
Or you could continue to call people out for racism, homophobia, et al.
I’m fine with us dropping the idea that we have to be civil with antiquated views because they’re coming from family members, that’s an idea anchored in the past that they come from.
Either you don’t condone hate speech, or you actually do because someone you love spews it out, choose one.
Oh goodness no someone waived a flag in front of them?! So much worse than being beaten to death or being denied your civil rights.During their anthem a guy ran onto the pitch with a rainbow flag and some spectators applauded it. But it started way earlierer with the media coverage and the behaviour of some politicians.
You do realise that it's pretty much a 100% certainty that your ideals will be viewed as antiquated in 30 years time, right?I’m fine with us dropping the idea that we have to be civil with antiquated views because they’re coming from family members, that’s an idea anchored in the past that they come from.
Either you don’t condone hate speech, or you actually do because someone you love spews it out, choose one.
What a troll post.During their anthem a guy ran onto the pitch with a rainbow flag and some spectators applauded it. But it started way earlierer with the media coverage and the behaviour of some politicians.
The only thing beaten to death here is reason. Exactly which civil right is taken away with this new law in Hungary?Oh goodness no someone waived a flag in front of them?! So much worse than being beaten to death or being denied your civil rights.