You cant treat him with the same standards as his decline was due to off-field issues rather than natural aging. Maradona is a big question mark as we have no idea how good he would still be if his off-field issues did not happen.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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Never mind the rest of the argument, but anybody who watched 2014 knows that was a pity award because he didn't win. He was nowhere near player of the tournament.Yep, won player of the tournament at the 2014 World Cup iirc. Was player of the tournament at the last copa (by quite a distance iirc) which Argentina won. But “he can’t play well outside of Barcelona”
Perhaps not, but he had all these issues at Barcelona and Napoli as well. Pelé was totally clean and was playing in the mls at this age. Also Messi has had a decent start to the season so far considering his age. And yeah his age does matter and his recent Argentina performances have been good as well.
For what it's worth:
Germany as the winners didn't have that one stand out player either, Neuer was probably closest.
Yeah. He didn’t have the personality to do what Messi did for the amount of time he did it for. Why on earth would “He did drugs” be valid as an argument against his defects on the pitch?
Rubbish. Ageing absolutely played a part of things as well, the fact he was doing drugs too just exacerbated it and clearly for some people masked it. Back in the 80s and 90s, for a variety of reasons, top attackers were beyond done by their early 30s. It’s still mostly true tbh.
A question mark is not proof of anything, it can’t be used as evidence.
Who should have won it James Rodrigues? A player not even fit to lace Messi’s boots. Germany played a great tournament but none of their players had the influence he did for their team.
Argentina went within a whisker of beating Germany with a far weaker side overall. He more than did his job in every game and scored one of the best goals in WC history on the way to the final.
He’s the greatest the world has ever seen in club football quite easily. Still the most talented played ever to step on a pitch. We know what Messi is and nobody in history can do what he can as regular as he does it.
Never mind scoring nearly 100 goals in a calendar year and the most assists in history. We’ve never seen a talent like him and probably won’t again for a very long time.
Of course he was. The only one close to his performances was Robben.
That's an absolutely ridiculous take. You are giving Maradonna more credit for a what-if scenario (off-field issues) while discrediting Messi for a what-if scenario (playing with worse players or a different system). Absurd double standard.
Thomas Muller, Robben and James would all be a good shout as well.
Argentina has been shit without Messi during his entire time there. Its not like his Argentina teams has been awesome national sides. It took Messi to come out of his brief retirement to even qualify for the world cup
Agreed. Besides their attack, Argentina's midfield and defense have never been on par with the other elite national sides during Messi's prime. Marcos Rojo has 61 caps ffs.
This was their 2014 World Cup roster:
https://www.fifa.com/tournaments/mens/worldcup/2014brazil/teams/43922
Joke ting.
awesome.Nah.
Fecking autocorrect on my phone.
I suppose it was to be expected after 8 years that his performances would be talked up by his fanbase but it's not really true is it. In the build up to the final the talk was about how little impact he had had in the knockout stages and what a disappointment he had been. He was nowhere near favourite to win Player of the Tournament, Robben and James were, everybody was shocked he won it and even he looked embarrassed when he collected the award. It was so obviously a consolation prize from FIFA because it was supposed to be 'his' World Cup.
Its true that he was not dead cert to win it, but I think it could have gone to anyone of the favourites. I agree that even though Messi had a good tournament it wasn't outstanding and he did look embarrassed to receive the award. I think after they just lost the final though his morale would be low in any case especially for Messi knowing that winning the final back then would automatically put him in contention for being the nr. 1 of all time.
Yeah i don't disagree with you. It's opinons and it's totally valid. The bolded bit was what I just took issue with. Like it is one thing having an opinion but it's another to use hyperbole to try and make a point. Like in the Ronaldo thread the other day, there was someone trying to downplay his influence in the UCL by calling Madrids 3 peat "flukey". I mean, I didn't even finish reading the post. See below - another example of "nowhere near" etc.
"nowhere near"? That's your opinion, yeah. Debatable, sure, like most of the individual awards anyway.
You're still missing the point as well. To say he's "not even been good" for anyone outside of Barca, is clearly wrong.
I'm tired of this. Watch every scene of Messi and compare it with every scene of whichever player you want to pick and if you then insist on your opinion, I can't help you. Erase Messi from the memory of football fandom before WC 2014 and the overwhelming majority of fans would pick him as the best player.
they gave it to the best individual that got the furthest in the tournament and that's it. no need to rewrite the history and pretend he was bad or others were better.
I didn't say that phrase, but the point t of it is correct. He's been a goat contender for Barcelona but for PSG and Argentina he's never at any point looked like the best player in the world at that time, let alone all time.
That's the narrative you like because it makes you come across as very critical and independently thinking but it is simply not true. Of course he has looked like the best player in the world for Argentina as well, especially if you consider shorter periods of time like the last Copa America. Messi always did Messi things, even for Argentina, just in a lesser team. It's so silly to pretend he suddenly forgot how to play football when he put on the Argentina shirt.
Just as a reminder some of the headlines the day before the final:
Sky: Was Lionel Messi really a disappointment in Brazil or have we just become numb to his genius?
BBC: World Cup 2014: Lionel Messi has disappointed me - Gary Lineker
And afterwards:
FIFA President Sepp Blatter has admitted that awarding Argentina's Lionel Messi the Golden Ball for the best player of the tournament at the summer's World Cup was a mistake.
Diego Maradona: Lionel Messi winning Golden Ball is a ‘marketing plan’
You watched him at the last Copa, as an example? And no, saying he's "not been good elsewhere" is simply not correct but let's agree to disagree.
I wouldn't have objected if either Robben, Muller or James won it.
That's not proving that he had an unworthy tournament, that's proving that many people claim he had an unworthy tournament. Nobody is denying the latter.
There is a huge difference between “no where near” and “debatable, perhaps some players were better”. No where near is like comparing Saviola with Henry, that is no where near. When you compare Shearer or Ruud with Henry, no where near sounds stupid
Argentina happens to be in a continent were there's just another big team there. Both would probably struggle against the top European sides (France, Spain etc). Maradona was by far the superior player. He dragged both Argentina and Napoli (both underdogs rather then the best team the world had seen in 20 years) to success and he played week in week out against some of the finest defenders the world at ever seen. It was also at a time when defenders could almost do anything and still get away with it. I assure you that Messi/Ronaldo wouldn't survive against the likes of Gentile and the Butcher of Bilbao
Sorry but on Maradona, Napoli was not the only underdog team in the same era who won the SerieA, I am sure you know that as well. Also he also did played for Barcelona back then, but did not drag them to anything significant (no liga or european cup)
Messi or Ronaldo may not have survived against the likes of Gentile etc, conversely I can say I assure that Maradona’s career will not survive a randomly picked 25 years old due to his lifestyle, and he would not survive today’s holistic defensive tactics. In other words, both you and I are just guessing
We know for a fact that Messi was surrounded by far superior players, probably the greatest team of all time.
Yup and therefore he won much more than Maradona at his club level which he had far superior players. Anymore? Or are you going the route of “oh his argentina too” which only had superior attackers but inferior midfield and defence line? Predictable
His two titles with Napoli were much more impressive
It's just 2 very different careers. Messi is goat who played for great sides and Maradona is a goat who was a big fish in a small pond.
I'm eternally confused by people trying to run Messi down...We get it, you didn't watch a lot of him at his peak and never appreciated it even if you did. Is there genuinely a need to keep banging on about your ignorance?
It's because a lot of Messi fanboys do the same with the other guy.
Ah, the old I must moron better logic.
Tbf Maradona had to wait for Napoli to sign more quality (Giordano,Careca, Alemao, Ferrara, and De Napoli) to win trophies.
Individually his best season was the first one, and Napoli ended 8th in Serie A.
Agreed, not easy to compare two different generations. Just friendly discussions and opinions.
I would save any judgement on messi in 2022 until the end of December. Argentina has a very good squad and are 7/1 with the bookmakers. He wins the World Cup and the conversation for greatest ever is officially over. If he doesn’t have a good tournament and PSG struggle again in the CL then yes, we can consider him as being at the end of his career. I find comments on him at this stage of the season excessively premature (both good and bad comments)
Those articles are not just many people though. They're specific people who are either involved in the WC officially or who otherwise know what they're talking about.
The point of all this is to show that Messi has never stood out above all others anywhere other than a stacked Barcelona team. It doesn't make him a bad player but he can't be the greatest player ever.