The problem is that he is.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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idiotic take, he was amazing for argentina, and joined a new team at 34.
The state of this thread. 
Barcelona in the 70s and 80s were a very average side. Between 1973 and 1991 they won just 3 La Liga titles. Maradona spent just 2 seasons there scoring 23 goals in 35 matches in his first season and 15 goals in 23 games in the second season. That's amazing considering that at the time defenders were allowed to actually defend. He also won 1 Copa Del Rey, 1 League cup and 1 Spanish Super cup. His goal against Real was applauded by Real fans themselves an honour which was granted to only Ronaldinho and Iniesta.
What is still the same is how Barcelona tend to treat players. When Maradona got injured (or rather hacked) by Andoni Goikoetxea, Barcelona basically told him to feck off since he would probably never play football anymore. Maradona returned home, he worked like a mad man and he returned to football on his own. However according to his brother he was broken inside (that's when Maradona's demons started to take shape) and he was certainly in no mood to make Barca win at this point. Thus they sold him off.
Maradona then went to Napoli a solid but hardly brilliant side and he made history there. It was the golden age of the Serie A, were nearly each and every squad had at least 1 WC player, it was shitting top defenders left right and centre + it was at the hay day of the catenaccio system. The 80s saw the likes of Ian Rush going in the Serie A and make a total fool of themselves while Van Basten and Platini sweated blood to score more then 20 goals per season. Maradona thrived in that league. If Maradona played in this football he'd easily score 30-35 goals a season. You'll probably have to double it if he was the star player in Pep's Barca.
Souness who actually played against Maradona 5 times thinks that he was the better player and guess what? A certain SAF agreed with him as well.
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They are just as prone to expectation and result biases as everyone else. Had Messi played fot Germany or Columbia with the same performances, people would ridicule you for suggesting Müller or James were better than him. If you show video footage to somebody in 50 years of every scene of every player in contention for best of the tournament, he'd pick Messi because once you took out expectations out of the equation, it is pretty obvious. As said, only Robben came close. But certainly not Müller or James.
This is a very good read on context at that time.
I always feel odd some people have to belittle Maradona in order to make Messi look more impressive. I mean, both of them are GOAT in their own rights, with Messi being perfect player for a super team like Barca, while Maradona being the perfect player carrying the underdogs like Argentina 86 and Napoli during late 80s. Their talent level/footballing is about the same, with Messi having more of consistency/productivity/longevity while Maradona having extra bit of flair/charisma/leadership/influence on the pitch.
Messi is a WC player possibly the best player of his time. Within Pep's elite team he could be unplayable. Maradona was the best player in the world aka a freak of nature who would do exceptionally well despite his size, his weight and the team he played with. Its like comparing Tyson to Ali really.
In a nutshell.
Its the other way around
https://www.givemesport.com/87981337-messi-vs-maradona-sir-alex-fergusons-opinion-on-the-debate
Also Barca couldn't wait to rid of Maradonna in the end because of him, taking drugs, starting conflicts with the coach and boards and topping it off with starting a major brawl on the pitch. That's not a knock on his abilities, just his lack of professionalism.
I wonder whether back in the day whether you think defenders were allowed to defend then, but not now. Messi has humiliated all the words greatest defenders including peak Man Utd in terms of defense 2008/2009/2011. Was it because they werent allowed to defend, or was it like Ferdinand said, they just couldn't get near him?.
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As a talent Maradona is a better player then Messi ever was. Longevity wise Messi had played more. There again one has to take in account Maradona's demons + advancements in sports science. I am old enough to remember a time when no matter how good or professional a player was he was done by 33 years of age. A decade of football were sport science/fitness was at its infancy and were tackles flew left right and centre would ruin almost anyone. Only very few players could go past that mark at the very top. Maradona was of that era.
Real defending isn't fouling your opponent, but yeah lets agree that seria A was harder because they could get away with it, but that's not real football that's just cheating. If you think Maradonna was better that's a fair opinon. I just think it's fair opinon to think Messi is the best ever. Take Pelé, Maradonna, Messi, Cryuff, De Stefano and I think any order that someone comes up with is around fair. We can throw in Cristiano as well for good measure.
The only reason Messi hasn't been applauded by Real fans back in the day is because of how much they hated him. Iniesta was a national hero, but Messi tormented Real Madrid since he was 19 till he was around 32 where he stopped scoring in the classico's and his decline began.
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Football at a time was far more physical. Players could get away with certain things which in turn allowed people like Claudio Gentile, Vinnie Jones and the Butcher of Bilbao to exist. That doesn't mean that every defender was a brute. You had absolute giants like Baresi, Scirea, Maldini, Vierchowod playing football who were a joy to watch and way better than the defenders we have today. Those who lacked such defenders could rely on the catenaccio who was in vogue at the time. If you add those three elements together (physical football, top defenders and a defensive oriented style of play) then the result was a football which made it almost impossible for strikers to play in. In fact between 1980 and 1990 there was only 1 league tops scorer who scored more then 20 goals and that was Aldo Serena in 1988-1989 season. Maradona (15 goals), Van Basten (19 goals), Platini (16 goals, 20 goals and 18 goals), Vialli (17 goals) and Virdis (18 goals) came close but they didn't reached the threshold. To compare it to today, Immobile scored 27 goals last season which is still less to the 36 goals in 2016-2017 and an ancient Ronaldo scored 29 goals in 2020-2021. You notice the difference in stats? Does that mean that Immobile is far better then Platini, Van Basten or Maradona? Of course not.
My point is that today's football is stacked heavily around the forwards. Football is less physical, there's elements like sports science, sports psychologists, data analysts and fitness specialists to aid the player and there's more protection around the player from abusers (including the club itself). That needs to be taken in serious account when judging an old player with a new one. As said, if Maradona played in modern football then he would be unplayable. Its a shame that jewels like Maradona and Van Basten weren't given that opportunity.
I wouldn't for once deny that Seria A is a shadow of what is was. But it doesn't mean that Messi making the best defenders of his generation look silly doesn't count. Just ask Ramos and Real Madrid's defense. Plenty of the goats hit great numbers in era they played in. Maradona numbers were also impressive in context that he was a nr. 10 or 2nd striker. But still plenty of the players of the past hit huge numbers. Pelé, Gerd Müller, De Stefano, Puskas, Best(considering he was as much a winger as a forward). But still I rate the defenders Messi played against in big matches.
While we can agree that Messi lacks an iconic world cup and iconic world cup performances, I feel it's wrong to say that he's never stood out at any team apart from Barcelona. Messi has been skinning defenders for Argentina his entire time there and is their all time topscorer, he doesn't as such look very much different than the Messi at Barcelona. Agreed though that his lack iconic WC performances are a blotch on his resume, but for Argentina he's often looked the same player, it's just a different supporting cast, manager and coaches.
As a Ronaldo fanboy this is my nightmare scenario .. really need Portugal and Goatnaldo to pull off a miracle.
What if either of them wins it while being completely average or shit. Does it elevate them?
Neither of their teams have the x-factor to win the tournament without these 2 playing well.
Portugal has a pretty strong squad.
Individually they have a much better roster than Argentina.
Not as per bookies, who have money involved in all of this:
https://www.vegasinsider.com/soccer/odds/world-cup/
https://www.covers.com/soccer/world-cup/odds
https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/fi...s?future=World_Cup_Winner&segmentId=0&id=6564
Arg: 4th, Port: 7th
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/ne...als-best-bets-top-sleepers-longshots-to-back/
Arg: 6th, Port: 8th
https://www.oddschecker.com/us/soccer/world-cup
Arg: 4th, Port: outside top-8
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/2022-world-cup-odds-tournament-favorites-usmnt-outlook
Arg: 5th, Port: 9th
https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/soccer/world-cup-odds/
Arg: 5th, Port: 8th
Ronaldo winning with Portugal will be a bigger achievement than Messi winning with Argentina.
Do you also think England and Brazil are stronger than France?
Argentina was very close to do it in 2014, and Messi was underwhelming outside of group stage.
In 1990, Argentina was very close to do it again, and Maradona did have a poor world cup (he was injured)except for the superb pass to Caniggia against Brazil.
Argentina can definitely win a WC with Messi being meh, if they defend well there is a chance.
They do, i believe Portugal can pull a Croatia 2018.
In 2006 they had a strong squad as well, and reached semifinals.
Another great game from Messi. Two assists and plenty of nice plays. Far from being done.
Are fanboys here still trying to prove that he's got it? He's a finished article, get over it and close the tread.
He’s definitely not done. But to a lot of people, me included, these matches do not really matter as his team is on another galaxy to the opposition. I bet you never heard of a any of these Toulouse players. It’s Messi, Mbappe and Neymar for feck’s sake.
You could say the same for all the goals Lewa scored in recent years. But I hear you, CL is where PSG will be judged.
Yes, but Messi getting to another final would place him ahead of Ronaldo without debate. Portugal have been mostly big let downs in the WC but let's see.
I think similarly about Lewa's Bundesliga conquests, but not the same extent.
But in fairness, the fact you know who Lewis Dunk is doesn’t really mean much objectively. So when Salah is scoring another goal against him, alongside Mane and Firmino, that shouldn’t really count for much either. The fact it does is mostly down to familiarity rather than anything substantive.
You can say about any run of the mill PL defender too.
Totally random but are you the same person who used to make Youtube compilation videos?
I did think about this before I posted. Two flaws though, Salah, Mane and Firmino aren’t Messi, Neymar and Mbappe, and they do face Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham and Man United throughout the season. The competitiveness of the premier league’s can’t be compared to that of ligue 1 surely?
Yes, the last one was some 12 years ago.
Yeah for sure, that front three is legendary in its own right (as individuals, and possibly as a trio this year), so I think against any mid table or below team in any league, you’d be inclined to just shrug it off as inevitable.
I do think we have a natural bias to discount things more for foreign leagues than our own though, just due to the familiarity factor. The Haaland effect surely highlights a bit of that. And as much as we discount these games individually, over the course of the season you do add them up and give them value. Salah gets the kudos for class goals against top teams, but the sheer volume and quality of goals in that season counts for something, even when you can’t remember who all 30-odd goals were against.
It is definitely the case that the odds are heavily stacked in PSG’s favour in practically every game. But I really think that’s true for City now, and most of the elite teams for a good decade. This guy Alvarez for City would be the best player for most teams in the league, and yet he’d struggle to lock down a place in their team. And if he does he’ll be kicking out Grealish, someone who was one of the best players in the league. That’s pretty wild.
I do agree with you that games against Chelsea and co. help qualify the performances in a way that it’s harder for PSG. You would need to see them back it up in the CL to know how to take it. But I think if they do back it up, you should count these performances in much the same way you’d count a Salah performance against Watford. It’s not quite Spurs, but he’s just turned Spurs inside out, you know he can do it, and the sheer consistency of doing that each week even in a team you’re the heavy favourites for us impressive, IMO.
Are they still uploaded somewhere. I remember being a big fan of your Ronaldo R9 one. I think the backing track was MOP Ante Up...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MUGAxpI0Bc
Pele and Maradona still exist.
Funny, because the belittling came from the maradona camp in the past few pages, but of course since its belittling messi, it is fine and dandy
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Pele to me, will always be the greatest (not best) ever. 3 world cups wins cannot be beaten even if Messi wins the world cup this year. At most messi will just cements his place above Maradona in the top 3 for me
Well from what I’ve read it basically started with discussion of Messi decline at PSG at Messi thread, then someone suggested Messi not being the best Argentina ever had, then the GOAT debate, and then followed up someone mentioning Maradona being crap after Napoli, then followed by all the debating/comparison/belittling.
Anyway I am not only talking about this thread specifically, just a general trend of newer generation of larger current fan base belittling the older generation in players comparison.
In my opinion what Messi had over Maradona, is similar as to what Ronaldo had over other past greats in GOAT debate ie basically it’s their superior productivity/consistency/longevity/overall career.
Don’t get me wrong I think it’s perfectly valid point of view, but I also found Maradona carrying underdogs and still capable of performing to GOAT peak level and won everything at the biggest stage, is something simply unmatched/unrivalled. I don’t have any problems with people saying Messi>Maradona or Maradona>Messi, they are both GOAT to me.
Another 2 assists for Messi, which takes him to 335 for his career, and to 1108 goals/assists in his career.
If he can somehow get to 400 career assists, that might be another of the Wilt Chamberlain records that might not be reached again.
If he can somehow get to 400 career assists, that might be another of the Wilt Chamberlain records that might not be reached again.