Beg to differ regards his talent on the ball.
There's a reason Barcelona tried to sign him, and that's his ability on the ball.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Clean sheets
- 20
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
There's a reason Barcelona tried to sign him, and that's his ability on the ball.
Martinez was quite literally 99th percentile on all the passing stats across Europe’s leagues last season. He’s also far better at carrying the ball (Maguire is surprisingly good at this, though) and Martinez understands spacing and how much of the pitch he has open. Our other CBs aren’t close when it comes to that sort of stuff.
I had read those stats but couldn’t imagine what a big impact that would have on the team as a whole until we got to compare and contrast with Maguire/Lindelof and their unbelievable slowness on the ball. I do think they’re both technically good passers of the ball but that’s wasted by them taking so long to decide which pass to execute they constantly run out of options.
This is not how to not use those stats. What you did is taking a player that plays in a team outside the top-5 leagues in Europe, and then compare his stats to those playing in top-5 leagues. If you look at Martinez stats since he joined United and played in the PL, you'll see that there are no 99% percentile anymore:
| Stats | Percentile % |
| Pass completion% | 57 |
| Progressive passing distance | 29 |
| Passes in to final third | 36 |
| Progressive passes | 16 |
Stats compared to our CBs last season.
| Stats | Percentile % | |||
| Martinez | Maguire | Varane | Lindelof | |
| Pass completion % | 57 | 64 | 85 | 82 |
| Progressive passing distance | 29 | 57 | 48 | 39 |
| Passes in to final third | 36 | 80 | 65 | 55 |
| Progressive passes | 16 | 75 | 38 | 45 |
| Assists | 43 (0 assists) | 33 (0 assists) | 78 | 87 |
(assists not a very good stats to compare as very few assists make a CB climb very high)
If you instead look at defensive actions like tackles and clearances, Martinez has very high figures in the PL.
And what you just did was take 6 games of stats. 
That is not how you use stats.
That is not how you use stats.After watching football for decades you trust your eyes and judgement after observing a player over many games. Lindelof is not a very good defender. He is good may be for mid table team, or back up in a top team but that's it.
I haven't seen Martinez besides this year in United shirt. But he looks promising. Difference in quality of defense when he is playing and when he is not is absolutely clear.
I haven't seen Martinez besides this year in United shirt. But he looks promising. Difference in quality of defense when he is playing and when he is not is absolutely clear.
Is there any news on the penalty incident? Have we written to UEFA to explain the decision? Serious question.
This is not how you use stats, wait let me pull 6 games dataAnd what you just did was take 6 games of stats.
The queens just died mate
I know and I am also fine with the weekend fixtures being cancelled. But we can still write a question to UEFA, no?
No, letter writing is cancelled
You can use stats from 1 game if you want, as long as you understand that the stats represent that 1 game. That is often done, and stats like possession, shots on goal, number of passes, etc are used to describe one game.And what you just did was take 6 games of stats.
These are stats from his 6 PL matches. They do not represent his whole future season, but they represent his first 6 matches in the PL. This is also what we discuss in his performance thread. And during this 6 matches the passing stats look like this:
| Stats | Percentile % |
| Pass completion% | 57 |
| Progressive passing distance | 29 |
| Passes in to final third | 36 |
| Progressive passes | 16 |
Do you have any idea why his stats look like this? Or any comments?
What I heard is that the ref was Italian and this is how they interpret the handball rule in Italy.
Stop being so obtuse, you know full well why the stats of a CB in a brand new league, at a club in transition are currently weaker than what they were last season. Those stats also being six fecking matches, two of which include losses and two of which were against two of the toughest sides we’ll play this season.
You complain about people using stats wrong and then use a sample size of 6?
Yes there are probably many explanations why his passing stats look like this.
There is nothing wrong with that if it is used to describe these 6 matches. My sample size is 100% of the population. Cannot get bigger.
Different rule across Europe?.
Personally, I find it more interesting comparing Martinez numbers to other CBs at Man Utd.
Martinez has a 84,6 percent completion rate in a team with a squad total of 77,5 percent this season. Lindelof and Maguire last year had a completion rate of 87,3 percent and 89,9 percent, but in a team with a completion rate of 81,9 percent.
Even more interesting, in my opinion, is that each pass Martinez has made move 6,95 yards forward. That is higher than both Lindelof and Maguire last year. It is also striking how much more progressive Martinez has been than our other CB, Varane.
Yes there is. 6 is not statistically significant.
so all our CBs pass better?
That's fine, agree to disagree. His performances has consistently shown he is not that great on the ball and that's that all matters. As for the Barca link, that was his agent and we all know agents have no vested interests and are bastions of footballing truth. Oh, it was also just before he signed a new extension, no coincidence there.
https://www.goal.com/en/news/barcel...s-for-lindelof-says/zbkuvsrxf2ol12fxawzme8drv
The bolded bit
. Again like I said, his passing and defending 'ability' is almost as make believe as the above quotes.The agenda is incredible mateThis is not how you use stats, wait let me pull 6 games data
. Proper fantasy level, alternate universe stuff.
Last edited:
Few years ago, people say Lindelof is good on the ball, good passer etc. but after watching Martinez, it couldn't be more obvious how Martinez is much more of a baller. To be fair, probably Lindelof had that potential, but certainly regressed after playing here, IMHO. He almost looks clueless next to the new players, but I still hope EtH could at least improve some of the players including Lindelof.
Yeah, why let facts get in the way!?That's fine, agree to disagree. His performances has consistently shown he is not that great on the ball and that's that all matters. As for the Barca link, that was his agent and we all know agents have no vested interests and are bastions of footballing truth. Oh, it was also just before he signed a new extension, no coincidence there.
https://www.goal.com/en/news/barcel...s-for-lindelof-says/zbkuvsrxf2ol12fxawzme8drv
The bolded bit
The agenda is incredible mate
Definitely agree to disagree.
With regards to Martinez's quality on the ball, what stats always miss out on, which is very obvious by looking at him playing as opposed to Lindelöf and particularly Maguire, is the speed with which the ball leaves his feet. He doesn't take too many touches, doesn't dwell on the ball and turn with it three times before giving it to his teammate. Progressive passes, passes into final third and forward passes are useless if they are preceded by five-six touches that have given the opponent the time to settle into an organised block.
I'd rather have a player that doesn't necessarily play all his passes forward but always passes it quickly than someone who takes ten seconds on the ball before playing a forward pass into a teammate who then has to face a settled defence once he receives it.
I'd rather have a player that doesn't necessarily play all his passes forward but always passes it quickly than someone who takes ten seconds on the ball before playing a forward pass into a teammate who then has to face a settled defence once he receives it.
Same rules but different interpretions and different practise, from what I’ve heard.
It was the same a few years ago, when some countries in South Europe blew penalty for basically any handball in the box. That’s when we started to see many CBs blocking shots with their hands behind their backs.
But I really don’t know 100% this is the case with Italy, just read it in an article and as I watch some Serie A football, I’ve noticed there are some soft handball penalties so it makes sense to me.
The first point, I really think it is hard to understand completion rate. I think Maguire has the higher % this season. But the reason our passing completion is lower than last year could be that we are sitting so deep and making a lot of high risk passes because we can’t play our way out.
The second point I am not sure what you mean, sorry. Do you mean his average progressive distance divided by his average amount of passes is 6.95 yards?
Varane is solid on the ball and a good passer, but I’ve never seen him as a the one who initiate attacks so to say.
For me what is most interesting is that the stats confirm what I’ve observed in the first 6 matches. Martinez is a fast one touch passer like many at Ajax, but 1. this is not measured in these stats and 2. I don’t feel we fully benefit from it. When more of his surrounding players start to play one touch this will become a more important ability imo.
(There are available one touch pass stats, but I don’t pay for that so can’t access it anymore. But I’ll see if I can somehow get it anyway. )
If you want to compare how good his passing stats are compared to the rest of Europes top 5 league CBs you can’t do that from 6 games.
If you, like me, want to use it to describe his first six matches it totally “significant”.
You can’t draw that conclusion from these stats, only how his passing stats have been compared to other CBs in Europe’s top-5 league during his six PL games.
It’s just naked stats. Not fantasy, not alternate universe, just publicly available stats. Doesn’t fit the opinion in this thread maybe, not your opinion, but stats are cruel in that way sometimes. .The agenda is incredible mate
Last edited:
Being 'linked' to Barca is completely separate to his actual ability on the ball. It's not an affirmation or proof of anything. That doesn't even take into account the 'facts' you speak of came from his agent just before he was looking to sign an extension.Yeah, why let facts get in the way!?
Definitely agree to disagree.
The only thing we have as definitive 'facts' is via his performances for Utd. You only need to look at this performance thread to see the general consensus of his passing ability, which can be generalised as 'technically capable and above average but not good enough to impose himself to show actual said ability'. Either way, the thread is getting derailed. You believe Lindelof is as good as Martinez in passing. A few including myself disagree with that and I'm sure as times goes, that comment will look even more contrasting.
Nope, not the case.
Also the perfect example of why folk on here quoting stats and data are very rarely worth the effort, because people don’t understand what they’re presenting.
Lindelof being great on the ball was always stuff on fantasy. He came to the league with a big reputation of being a ball playing CB but he probably shows that about twice a season. I can't describe him as any more than decent on the ball when the likes of VVD, Rudiger, Matip, T.Silva, Laporte, Vertonghen, Stones and a few others have been in the league in his time here.
Martinez is in a totally different league from him on the ball.
Martinez is in a totally different league from him on the ball.
Lindelof has a very good long pass, other than that he's just decent on the ball. Still think he'd be as the RCB in a back 3 somewhere, at a level a little lower than where we aspire to be.
Would be interested in seeing how a Lindelof-Martinez partnership would do on occassion - they would probably compliment each other quite well.
Would be interested in seeing how a Lindelof-Martinez partnership would do on occassion - they would probably compliment each other quite well.
Yup, sure thing, right you are boss.
It was quite well known Barca were interested before his agent said there were concrete approaches ( of which his agent said so after Lindelgod signed his contract!)
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on a player, does not mean that opinion is correct, as you deem yours to be.
His performances for Utd have been decent at times, with some extremely good passes thrown in.
Martinez is a completely different player, much more aggressive, more intense and likes to engage hard, his passing is very good also.
Lindelgod is just as good on the ball, yet is no where near as aggressive and seems to take longer on the ball than Martinez.
Fact is right now we only have a handful of games in a United shirt to judge Martinez on, I say let's just enjoy his performances and hopefully he'll be the defender we need.
I agree. The long diagonal switch of play and the ball over the top into space are things Lindelof and Maguire excel at and of course they're useful but personally i like players that can really get the ball into the forwards feet quickly. Somebody like Roy Keane was good/decent at long range passes but where he excelled was those perfect 10-15 yard passes between the lines. Martinez does that really really well and it's noticeable we move the ball better from the back with him in the team.
After this guys introduction with his tenacity, aggression and overall much more assertive football, it’s bewildering how we prolonged with Maguire and Lindelof for so long. It’s no wonder we used to get pressed the crap out of. Those 2 would send an invite to every opposition player to come get them while they faffed about with the ball.
This.
Still getting the warning about performance threads being closed
you should see Rashford's tricks
I've seen plenty of Rashford's tricks.
I just wanted to post Martinez and also state how much I like him as a player. Me liking him as a player isn't due to his tricks. Although I do appreciate his technical level
Finally have a player I like at the club after a barren couple of years.
Imagine Maguire trying that
- Status