Exactly.And the tendency is also that he falls out with management/upper hierarchy figures who interfere with the footballing side of things. Which is very unlikely to happen at United. So, unless Louis is the one to instigate trouble - we should be reasonably safe
LvG and his ruthless streak
- Thread starter Robbie Boy
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I completely agree with this. Keeping ADM to me seems a bigger risk than selling him. He wasn't all bad last season, but he was nowhere near to the standard which we need/paid for. If we keep him and he performs the same way, we'll end up taking a big bath on him.
I realise that if we decide to sell and he ends up tearing it up in Paris, we'll look silly and some on here will say that we were stupid to do so, but we have no guarantee that he will be a success there or here next year. Also i for one would rather see Pereira as a backup for Depay and Herrera be first choice in MF than ADM, which doesn't give him many options.
Its frustrating as i really wanted him to perform, but if his head isn't in it now, then its time for us to cut loose and try and recoup as much £ as possible.
Am i the only one who thinks that Argentinian players and MUFC seem to be harder work or more hassle than other nationalities?
Can't remember the last one who either didn't end up performing or at the end of their time with us screwed us over in one way or another!
Maybe we just shouldn't have Argentinians!
I jest btw, i realise thats an idiotic thing to say.
I'm happy with how ruthless LVG is being, it has been needed and sure it will continue the more time progresses. It's the style of football and his substitutions etc which have angered me more about him in all honesty, So if that doesn't change this time around then my opinion will of him will only get worse. He has more then enough tools now to be able to play quality, attacking football and I really do hope he does utilise the resources we have.
Given the fact that LvG didn't see any future for RVP, I don't see how the decision to let him go could be made much nicer. It's a big name player, he struggled and the manager lost confidence, that's always gonna be a painful sad story. Maybe he got slapped on the wrist for 'claiming' his place in the starting line up through twitter and his PR about having fun travelling with the 2nd team, it's seems obvious RvP saw himself as more important for the team and therefore in the dressing room than Van Gaal did.
But in the end it was just a disappointing decision for him, where he's disappointed about.
But in the end it was just a disappointing decision for him, where he's disappointed about.
Re: Di Maria
The fact is that he had trouble settling in - it happens. You don't get rid of a sixty million signing after one disappointing season just because there's no guarantee he'll go on to perform significantly better - there never is any such guarantee. If Di Maria had been forced on LVG, then I'd be inclined to buy the arguments. But there's no reason to think he was. LVG wanted him and presumably has an idea about how to use him.
If he's miserable in Manchester and pining for Paris, that's another thing again. But there isn't anything substantial to back up this notion as far as I'm concerned. People keep talking about him as though he's a huge liability - because he doesn't fit LVG's system (unfounded, IMO) and/or because his heart isn't in it (also unfounded, IMO).
So, based on sheer speculation people want rid of him as though he was some kind of ticking bomb. I find it a bit odd, to be honest. If he really wants out - or if LVG has changed his mind about him - we'll find out soon enough. But until then I don't see why we should assume the worst.
The fact is that he had trouble settling in - it happens. You don't get rid of a sixty million signing after one disappointing season just because there's no guarantee he'll go on to perform significantly better - there never is any such guarantee. If Di Maria had been forced on LVG, then I'd be inclined to buy the arguments. But there's no reason to think he was. LVG wanted him and presumably has an idea about how to use him.
If he's miserable in Manchester and pining for Paris, that's another thing again. But there isn't anything substantial to back up this notion as far as I'm concerned. People keep talking about him as though he's a huge liability - because he doesn't fit LVG's system (unfounded, IMO) and/or because his heart isn't in it (also unfounded, IMO).
So, based on sheer speculation people want rid of him as though he was some kind of ticking bomb. I find it a bit odd, to be honest. If he really wants out - or if LVG has changed his mind about him - we'll find out soon enough. But until then I don't see why we should assume the worst.
Even if he goes to Paris and is their player of the year I still won't regret it if we sell him because it's evident that he's a very good player who hasn't fit in here at all. If he stayed he could still be as poor as last season because he's not at his best here which is clear when you see him performing much better for Argentina in the middle of terrible run for United.
You sign a £60m 27-year old player expecting him to settle straightaway, not spend years trying to find any sort of form. You certainly don't sign them expecting them to be good for 4 weeks and terrible for 8 months, and looking progressively worse. If he were a £20m signing then maybe we could take a punt and wait some more time, we cannot wait 2-3 years before a £60m player settles because it's too much of a risk. Besides he'll be 28 in 6 months, and has always been mostly about pace and huge amounts of energy - he won't be anywhere near the level he was at Real Madrid when he's 32-33, anywhere. He may still have 2-3 years at the top but he's not been ANYWHERE NEAR the top at United.
There's a middle ground between not being a success in his first season and spending "years trying to find any sort of form". If you conclude that the latter is what he'll be doing, then yes - sell him. I don't see how you can possibly predict the latter with any certainty, though.
Our last season wasn't a normal one by any stretch. The whole team struggled, trying to adapt to a new system - it was the very definition of a transitional season.
But most of here are adamant we keep DDG for a year even if it means we lose out on 25 odd million, using the logic that the club is not that worried for that amount. So why not take that same risk with a player who has shown he is world class and could well turn out like that for us. Unless the player has told in no uncertain terms that he wants to leave (even then I would only sell if we recoup our money) I would hope we give him another year.
let's check out the timeline over the rvp saga:
. robin started to feel his future could be in jeopardy since the last game vs chelsea in march;
. they talked during a golf event in may. my best guess is about what lvg was planning with something similar unveiled by giggs later. robin learn that lvg had wanted to repair the spine of the squad which also meant for a new striker to coming in;
. in june robin came out in public to talk about how important to him of playing regular football, he first hinted a move could be possible;
. over the following few weeks robin was spotted in both italy and istanbul. can only say he was actively checking out all his options with his family;
. by the start of july when the squad was to regroup for training, there was a report to suggest that a deal between feneb & robin had been agreed. it's quickly being denied by the player's agent;
. robin was sent (don't know exactly when this happened) to pitch 2 before the squad flied over to america for tour and robin headed for a flight to istanbul as well;
. so far no official announcement from united. so i presume the transfer has not been official yet. on paper rvp is still a united player i guess
the above could be not exactly right, feel free to correct
my verdict:
so far lvg only reviewed the talk held in may and nothing else regarding the rvp departure. i don't think this is his intention to break the relationship. robin complained he was not given a 2nd chance to prove himself and commented he intended to fight for his place after the summer break. i don't know how much truth in it given all his transfer rumors during the summary esp the deal with feneb reported.
it sounds brutal he was sent to pitch 2 for training. but if the deal agreement was really true (and very likely indeed) then to separate a set to go away player from the main squad cannot be said it's wrong in management. you don't want to see any potential damage could have been done to the people leftover.
i think robin was most pissed is that lvg didn't help him to prolong his career like what wenger did to berkgamp and fergie did to rio & giggs, given their relationship built up for the last world cup campaign.
i don't know if lvg is interested in doing this or not, but even he do i'm afraid this is not the right time and right place for lvg to do that. this is a time game for lvg in united and he has to deliver within a few seasons, he has already wasted a year and get no more spare time to screw around. and he has not earned his capital in united to allow him to do the same thing as what wenger & fergie did anyway. maybe if they both staying with one club for life long then it could be a different story. i don't know, both they are both dutch they will find their own way to fix it. or i simply leave it to other dutch cafers
so why robin giving out this interview to the media right now?
as said, the transfer hasn't been completed yet so he wanted to give united a kick. hurry up or more stories to feed out
. robin started to feel his future could be in jeopardy since the last game vs chelsea in march;
. they talked during a golf event in may. my best guess is about what lvg was planning with something similar unveiled by giggs later. robin learn that lvg had wanted to repair the spine of the squad which also meant for a new striker to coming in;
. in june robin came out in public to talk about how important to him of playing regular football, he first hinted a move could be possible;
. over the following few weeks robin was spotted in both italy and istanbul. can only say he was actively checking out all his options with his family;
. by the start of july when the squad was to regroup for training, there was a report to suggest that a deal between feneb & robin had been agreed. it's quickly being denied by the player's agent;
. robin was sent (don't know exactly when this happened) to pitch 2 before the squad flied over to america for tour and robin headed for a flight to istanbul as well;
. so far no official announcement from united. so i presume the transfer has not been official yet. on paper rvp is still a united player i guess
the above could be not exactly right, feel free to correct
my verdict:
so far lvg only reviewed the talk held in may and nothing else regarding the rvp departure. i don't think this is his intention to break the relationship. robin complained he was not given a 2nd chance to prove himself and commented he intended to fight for his place after the summer break. i don't know how much truth in it given all his transfer rumors during the summary esp the deal with feneb reported.
it sounds brutal he was sent to pitch 2 for training. but if the deal agreement was really true (and very likely indeed) then to separate a set to go away player from the main squad cannot be said it's wrong in management. you don't want to see any potential damage could have been done to the people leftover.
i think robin was most pissed is that lvg didn't help him to prolong his career like what wenger did to berkgamp and fergie did to rio & giggs, given their relationship built up for the last world cup campaign.
i don't know if lvg is interested in doing this or not, but even he do i'm afraid this is not the right time and right place for lvg to do that. this is a time game for lvg in united and he has to deliver within a few seasons, he has already wasted a year and get no more spare time to screw around. and he has not earned his capital in united to allow him to do the same thing as what wenger & fergie did anyway. maybe if they both staying with one club for life long then it could be a different story. i don't know, both they are both dutch they will find their own way to fix it. or i simply leave it to other dutch cafers
so why robin giving out this interview to the media right now?
as said, the transfer hasn't been completed yet so he wanted to give united a kick. hurry up or more stories to feed out
Different situations. If De Gea leaves, think about what that means for us, who we are likely to have in goal, the drop off in quality. Now think about who is covering if Di Maria leaves.
It is easier to justify risking £25m on a player with a strong claim to being your best player of the previous season, than it is to justify it on a player who want even in the team for your best 5-6 game spell of the season. Assists or not, nobody thinks he has any claim to being among our best players last season.
Having said all that, I probably would keep him. Its not as clear cut a decision but I think I would. I would only be tempted to sell if we could break even on him. I wouldnt be keen to take a loss on him, because I do think he will be better this season if he stays. He's a hard worker and Van Gaal loves that in a player, so Im sure they can find a way to make it work.
His poor man management goes way beyond being ruthless with departing players, for example he goes out of his way to avoid giving any praise to players in public, which i find very strange, he also criticizes players in public all the time, some may call it honesty but i think it's counter productive.
I think that depends entirely on what he tells them - and how he treats them - off camera. If they know that this "honesty" of his is simply his style, then it probably doesn't matter to them: They know what he thinks about them privately, which is far more important than anything he says to the journos.
Same point as with Valdes above, only with a different twist: What he says publicly is first and foremost a matter of his own public image - not a matter of man management. We, the fans, tend to put far too much emphasis on what is often just a bit of histrionics for the media muppets.
If you look at the collective testimonies of all the players LVG has managed through the years, there really isn't any reason to accuse him of being a poor man manager. A highly idiosyncratic one, sure - but not a bad one. He has fallen out with some players, no question about it, but that happens with all managers. His way of falling out with them is more eye catching than your regular bust-up, that's all.
I have to disagree here, you assume that all the players perceive him in the same way, but in reality different players require different treatment.
In any line of work, you don't want your manager to criticize you in front of everyone, and it's even worse that he only acknowledges the good work you do privately but goes out of his way to avoid giving you credit in public. You don't need to be a footballer to know that this is poor man management.
I'm sure van gaal is well respected within the club, but i bet the day he leaves plenty of players will be relieved.
Well, we can only speculate - but who's to say LVG perceives all his players in the same way? Perhaps he does consider who can take a public beating and who can't?
Of course I agree that generally it's absolutely necessary not to blow everyone with the exact same hairdryer, so to speak, and if he doesn't consider the individual nature of the players at all, then that's poor man management - clearly so. But I don't know enough about what he actually says and does behind closed doors to make a judgment either way. What we know about him mainly comes from ex players - some of whom fell out with him, most of whom did not (and I would assume, without actually digging up quotes, that there were players in the latter group who were given McNair style marks in public too).
I see how you used every argument to support and justify the manager's decisions. To use RvP's age though to support your argument is neither here nor there. If he's only 26 or 28 and not performing he should still be sold. RvP is not yet 32 (I just checked his date of birth 6 August 1983, whereas Bastian's is 1 Augest 1984. Rooney is 10 October 1985. There are not a lot of age difference between them).
I think the way LvG handle his players has not been tactful. Even what he has done is justifiable, why give the chance of disgruntled players to publicly criticise the manager? The Valdes case is very badly handled. There is no need to tell the media and let the fight open up to the public.
It's not just about a public beating, he's just weird about it all.
For example de gea makes plenty of great saves, and in the post match interview he's asked about how impressive was de gea, he always responds with something like " it's his job " or " he also made a couple of mistakes ". Who does this? and is that what will keep de gea grounded?
The only time i remember him defending a player was after the arsenal cup game when valencia misplaced a pass and welbeck scored, he said valencia was our best player that day.
I appreciate his honesty sometimes but he isn't protective of our players at all.
I agree with everything you said there. As to the highlighted part: I truly do believe the reasons why he did that was so that he's claiming credit for himself and himself alone. He badly wants the public to know that when games are won, it's because of his philosophy whereas when we lost, it's the players not adhering to his philosophy. It's hard to watch his post match interviews sometimes because he's just claiming too much credit for himself and dismissing too much how his players played the socks off for a win.
Sir Alex never ever claimed credits in front of a camera, but everyone knows it's him who made our team tick.
Last edited:
RE RVP - If he went to Ed and LVG and said to them 'I want to extend my contract now for a lower salary' He would still be here. Thats my guess anyway.
Between his salary and transfer fee, United gained ~20m surely. We didnt want to pay 200k+ a week to a bench player that will leave for free next season.
Between his salary and transfer fee, United gained ~20m surely. We didnt want to pay 200k+ a week to a bench player that will leave for free next season.
Here here! What does that! Players are not robot. Managers who don't publicly give credit to their players where's due will show you how they are dealing with them privately. It's really quite bad. Young players need to be appreciated even more.
I think it's the way (rather than just the decisions) LvG handled situations of his players that is in issue here. It really has left a lot to be desired. If a leader wants to stamp his authority, he doesn't really need to repeat and remind everyone. And good man management is to keep a trusting relationship. LvG had come across as betraying his players, and in this case I can feel for RvP.
Yeah, but in fairness he's dealt with loads of young players over the years - and seemingly most of them are fine with his ways, and downright appreciative of his methods as a manager. Can't completely ignore that.
He doesn't lavish praise on players in post match interviews as a rule - I mean, come on, that's his style. It doesn't mean he's a terrible man manager. If he was, he wouldn't have had the amount of success he's had over the years, it stands to reason.
I suppose you need to take the good with the bad. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of airing all the grievances in public but I also do not mind it. It's a preference. Everyone has a job to do, and we need to get on with it.
As long as he doesn't pull some eye-gauging shit (or things along those lines), it's not a popularity contest.
As long as he doesn't pull some eye-gauging shit (or things along those lines), it's not a popularity contest.
You are making the assumption that he does not give them praise individually in private. The last thing he needs is a 'teachers pet' type mentality of the same players get praise all the time in public. So he often praises and criticizes the team as a whole by saying we can play better, we were better team in first 5 mins, we did not play well. All the players have said that he is direct with them in face to face, praising and pointing out what he dislikes. Sounds pretty good mad management to me.
While I don't totally disagree with what you said about his past records, I do wish to point out that now he's Man United manager we do have a tradition that United is a big family so not everything he was doing in the part should be squarely fitting into the United formula.
We want trophies of course but this goal should be sitting side by side with a harmonious setting.
You point about his style (of not praising his players) is something we think should change for the better instead of condoning or encouraging it. At the end of day, having happy employees around will make your business thrive easier
For a moment I thought you had changed it to 'mad'.
It's beautifully apt.
Van Gaal is a bit mad. But he has conviction and authority, so he can win stuff.
Van Gaal is a bit mad. But he has conviction and authority, so he can win stuff.
I am not denying that DDG is more important to us than Di Maria. All I am saying is people here are worried about him losing his value and us unable to recoup what we paid for in case things go south for him this season as well. But then many of them are comfortable losing similar amounts for DDG by letting him go for free next season.
And we are not talking about Bebe here. Di Maria was one of the best players in the world one season ago and he is just entering his peak. We can afford to risk losing some money by giving him the chance to regain his form which could be the difference between us winning the title or not.
If he is desperate to go, it makes sense to then sell him off but never at a loss.
Of course - but it's a balance, isn't it? Do you think United as a whole would benefit from, say, Sir Bobby admonishing LVG for not praising the players enough publicly?
If he consequently slagged them off in post-match interviews, then yes - Sir Bobby should have a word with him. But him being somewhat reserved when it comes to outright praise - that is, again, just his style. I don't see anything wrong with it myself. Our players aren't so insecure that they need to be lauded by the manager in public - I don't think that matters one jot. The interaction with the media isn't for the players - it's for the journos and by extension the fans. Van Gaal clearly isn't very media savvy in one sense - that's fine by me as long as he gets the job done.
Agreed! I think LvG needs to think twice how he can get the best version of each of his player. Di Maria is not a one trick pony and we paid big £££ for him. If LvG doesn't learn how to manage a world class player, it's not Di Maria's fault wanting desperately to leave.
First of that's bs. If he goes to another team and makes player of the year we'd all be gutted, especially if that team won something and we end up trophyless.
Secondly, what are you basing this off ? You say he doesn't fit in here at all yet racked up the thrid highest assists in the league and a crazy amount of chances created while scoring some amazing goals. He just struggled to adapt i his first season, it's such a surprise how so few people want to accept them and write him of as not fitting in.
Does no one really have any paitence for di maria, a player who before signing made it into the World 11? One hetic season filled with injuries, change of culture/league and a house burglary yet he still got numbers on the board and everyone wants to give up because of a few psg rumours, even when the di maria himself said he wants to become great at utd.
Selling di maria unless he puts in a transfer request is a stupid move I still don't think the caf gets it yet.
Add an inform di maria to the squad we have now (+CB) and we are 100% title contenders.
that's the key is it! Get the job done. The important question is: has he got the job done? People keep talking about his past records and style, but last season we were struggling to keep top 4. It's not like we didn't have the quality to win things. But many fans are just very happy celebrating top 4. I am not criticising them because I felt so relieved we are back to be Europe again. But my point is has he really got the job done (the way we actually want?)
A little goes a long way! If big players do not find United desirable to play in, it's the management style (not the weather) that they don't like.
Of course it's not really up to the board to tell LvG what to do. It has to come from within. LvG is not going change his style just like that but I hope he learns and change for the better
Not at all. And he needs to deliver soon. That's not me speaking - because I'm a patient man - but United's board of directors. His philosophy and his quirks and his whole package - will go right out the door if we don't improve on last season. I have no doubt about that whatsoever.
Come next summer (or even before that), there will be several available alternatives up for hire. Van Gaal isn't safe in his job by any stretch.
all good managers make tough decisions.
Forlan went to Villarreal and became a world class player, he then excelled at Atletico and for a period of time he was probably amongst top 5 forwards in Europe - there was a time when he was superior to all forwards at United. I still did not regret that we sold him because he was not going to turn it around at United and would have only become a decent forward playing here because he couldn't adjust.
This nonsense about his stats needs to be cut. He was poor last season, a good spell of 5-6 games mostly against weak teams in which he racked up some good stats should not distort the facts - he was well below par and let the team down during the crucial stage of season in which we were bailed out by no one else than Ashley Young on the wing. You know there's something wrong when Young needs to cover for you so that the team has any sort of threat down the flanks.
He wasn't injured all that much last season. He was fit for the best part of it, he was just so crap that he ended up on the bench for a couple of months. We paid a record fee for him and he was supposed to be a crucial player. He let us down last season. It reminds me a bit of Moyes debacle, 'give him time and he will be amazing', only Di Maria has a history of being great that Moyes did not - I am still very very far from the conclusion that he's going to become POTY if given time. And I've defended him A LOT last season.
We all are assuming things here what goes on behind the scene. If we are privy to those conversations, we would be reporting them as news. lol
My take is, every professional player (even youngsters) want some public acknowledgment. No? Praising in private (or criticism for that matter) is essential because it is more like feedback, not particularly for boosting of confidence but also to improve and address areas that need to address.
It's interesting when you said "All the players have said that he is direct with them in face to face, praising and pointing out what he dislikes." I am not sure how you read from this kind of reporting and how you interpret them. "Being direct with me" and "pointing out what he dislikes" mean: he blamed me for losing the ball hence leading a goal from the opposition. He split onto my face... Why is this good management to you? It is necessarily and any rookie manager can do it.
"Praising in private": Of course this is important, because players need confidence boost and happy to be recognised. But in certain circumstances, public acknowledge is much more important than private debriefing recongising their achievement on the pitch. As I said those are just routine necessity so as to improve or keep the good performance in the next game. I never assume he did not praise players in private. It would be daft if he didn't
Of course. The key issue here is, better managers do not need to explain to the world why he took certain actions or made decisions that look out of ordinary to outsiders. If the media wants to know the answers, they will need to buy books to study about leadership and management.
Di maria has shown what he is capable of in the early days of the prem and at RM. that level of talent deserves another season.
No the stats don't need to be cut because it is seriously relevant when discussing his form last season, I agree he was poor but poor di maria racked up those numbers so imagine him in form, how are we not allowed to speak about his chances created, assists and goals last season? Unless you're in the camp of posters that believe "most of his assists were accidents" garbage.
Someone said this moyes nonsense in another thread also and it always baffles me. Comparing moyes to di maria in anyway makes no sense, he shouldn't even be brought up in discussion. Moyes was out of his depth and had little to no accomplishments. Di maria came from a better team at a higher level after playing a huge part in winning the champions league. Di maria deserves the risk because we have seen him excel, moyes had nothing to back up his promises that he will succeed eventually so there was no faith.
There are also some very telling reasons as to why di maria struggled that people don't want to even consider. Why right him off after a season when we have seen how good he can be ? We paid for bucks for him, can we not back our investment ? Or should we just run out of the door at the first sign of trouble.
I still don't think some of you get how good he can be, to say he hasn't shown glimpses of it last season is beyond harsh. Yes I will agree he wasn't up to par but he definitely deserves another shot. If there is one player worth the risk it's di maria.