Many posts was to praise City, how well they have planned for Pep to take over and worked for years on transfers all that.
Manchester City under Pep Guardiola | Pep on City v Liverpool ref: "He likes to be special"
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Exactly. Proved my point.
Yes, the 'truth' is subjective.
We will spend again in the summer, I think even if we don't make CL the ambition still has to be to mount a title challenge.
It's bad enough not challenging from a fan's point of view, but like you say - 5 seasons without a real title push would reflect so badly on the club, the sponsors may start thinking twice.
Unlike Arsenal though, that will be felt in the boardroom and the standards won't be allowed to slide in that manner. I don't think we can sustain the business side of things by just reaching top four, we need to be seen as winners.
It's amazing!
They need to be prepared to play a variety of positions, run and chase constantly, be of high character and above all be coachable. Those who think they know best are of no use to Pep.
Agree with that.
But the FB's were neglected, that was a cock-up and no excuses. They gambled on a couple of kids (Maffeo and Angelino) being the long term answer starting from next season and didn't want to block their path.
The gamble looks to have failed and we've paid a heavy price this season.
The problem with Pep is that some people sold us the idea that he was some kind of a super avengers innovative manager who'd transform any team into a winning machine playing a great brand of football while the like of Mourinho are just some checkbook manager who needs a lot of money to win something!
When Pep was announced as the next City's manager, almost every pundits and even most of our fans were crying saying he'll dominate the league and make City one of the biggest club in the world! For many peogle, Guardiola would have come to City and automatically starting to win trophies after trophies! This was noticed at the start of the season when City won something like 10 consecutive games, despite the fact it was obvious that in most of the games they struggled too much and were lucky to come out with the win!
Now after 7 months into the season, people are starting to realise that he's just another good money who need a combination of a lot of money, great players and luck to build a great side! So comparing him to the like of SAF was an heresy! The guy was lucky to come across a generation of great talents at Barcelona who play his brand of football to perfection!
Now most of his fans changed their narrative and are starting to talk about waiting for the next season to judge him; but I think next season will be the season that break the myth of Guardiola as I don't see him winning this league or the CL with that City team anytime soon because : 1) City need at least 5 or 6 new players to have a great team and they'll still need to learn to play together, that will take another season to achieve; 2) Next season United, Chelsea and Liverpool and other teams will get stronger so the PL will be hard to win; 3) I don't think his brand of football can win the league and he seems not willing to adapt to this league!
So good like to him, as the most difficult part of his career is still to come!
When Pep was announced as the next City's manager, almost every pundits and even most of our fans were crying saying he'll dominate the league and make City one of the biggest club in the world! For many peogle, Guardiola would have come to City and automatically starting to win trophies after trophies! This was noticed at the start of the season when City won something like 10 consecutive games, despite the fact it was obvious that in most of the games they struggled too much and were lucky to come out with the win!
Now after 7 months into the season, people are starting to realise that he's just another good money who need a combination of a lot of money, great players and luck to build a great side! So comparing him to the like of SAF was an heresy! The guy was lucky to come across a generation of great talents at Barcelona who play his brand of football to perfection!
Now most of his fans changed their narrative and are starting to talk about waiting for the next season to judge him; but I think next season will be the season that break the myth of Guardiola as I don't see him winning this league or the CL with that City team anytime soon because : 1) City need at least 5 or 6 new players to have a great team and they'll still need to learn to play together, that will take another season to achieve; 2) Next season United, Chelsea and Liverpool and other teams will get stronger so the PL will be hard to win; 3) I don't think his brand of football can win the league and he seems not willing to adapt to this league!
So good like to him, as the most difficult part of his career is still to come!
Maybe. When City won first 10 games or so and ManUtd was struggling there were many posts praising how City have signed players to fit Pep style and planned for this moment for 4 years or so. IT was way OTT, thankfully it is lot more balanced now.
My opinion hasn't changed - I've always said he was handed success on a plate with his previous two clubs and City would be his first true test as a top manager.
He's not doing badly but no better than Pellegrini - they'll finish third and possibly win the FA Cup but I doubt that, I'd fancy Spurs or Chelsea against them in the final. So 3rd and no trophies for his first season, after City fans thought they'd compete for the lot, would be a letdown.
He's not doing badly but no better than Pellegrini - they'll finish third and possibly win the FA Cup but I doubt that, I'd fancy Spurs or Chelsea against them in the final. So 3rd and no trophies for his first season, after City fans thought they'd compete for the lot, would be a letdown.
Jamie Jackson is claiming there are 18 players whose places in next season's squad are in doubt: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/mar/16/pep-guardiola-manchester-city-clearout-18-players
I was talking purely in terms of their lack of tactical flexibility. I am not disputing that Guardiola is a good coach and is probably the best when it comes to exploiting the weaknesses of the opposition. His reading of the game in terms of where spaces might open up and which areas of the pitch to overload is top notch. However, there are obvious flaws in his philosophy which can be exploited by teams.
A winning manager who doesn't stick to a philosophy recognizes the limitations of his own team and looks to play to his team's strength and does his best to ensure his teams' weaknesses are not exploited. At Barcelona, he had at his disposal a collection one of the greatest midfielders of all time which meant they were always in control by keeping the possession and it was near impossible for opposition teams to press them into mistakes and of course they were efficient in front of goal by virtue of having arguably the greatest goalscorers of all time in Messi. Their center backs were superb footballers too. Add to this, their work rate in terms of pressing and a combination of all these factors led to the creation of a winning machine.
At Bayern where he had an inferior set of midfielders and less efficient attacks as compared to Barca, he applied the same formula and it worked tremendously against huge majority of the teams he came up against but as soon as he faced genuine challengers in Champions League he was knocked out due to not adapting to the opposition and playing into their hands. He mistakes his players for robots and demands perfection from them every time but it is extremely difficult to pull this off against world class teams. His solution to prevent counter attacks is to stop them right in the opposition halves which can be very demanding for the players to perform as was evident when they came up against Madrid and Atletico. He tried to go toe to toe with Barca but the huge demands placed on them took its toll on players and they ended up conceding 3 late goals in the second half of the first leg against them.
Pep's teams do not concede too many chances to the opposition but a huge number of chances they concede are big chances which are likely be converted. So, lets say if his teams create 10 chances every match and the opposition gets 3 chances, at Barca 4 of those would be converted into goals and the opposition gets 1 goal. Whereas at City, only 2 of those would be converted and he would be conceding a lot more chances to the opposition than at Barca and concede a higher amount of goals. Winning matches is all about balance between attacking and defending and its the other side of the game which he doesn't seem to coach. Even last night at Monaco in the first half, City were actually sitting back defending but without any kind of reasonable pressure. The spacing between midfield and defence was too big, 2 on 1 situations were repeatedly created on the wings and the back 4 was too static which suggests not enough work was done on the training ground to coach the defensive side of the game. His only game plan is to play on the front foot which is going to work against a big number of teams who allow them to play but as soon as their game is disrupted, he doesn't seem to have a solution apart from trying to press the opposition from the front.
buy a new squad. Top management
Exatly. He has been asking for troubles for months, with that system.
Looks like a typical Jamie Jackson article. He just put together players whose contracts will expire, players on loan and players who don't play much. Granted we can see 10-12 from that lot leave in summer but the headline makes it sound like he got some inside information when it is noting more than a guess.
Guardiola doesn't need to buy a whole new squad. He just needs new players on critical positions such as goalkeeper, CB,CF who can understand his way of playing naturally and perform it instantly. Positional game itself is very fascinating concept but it needs a lot of practice and understanding from the players. Yesterday City demonstrated whats all wrong with it in the first and all right things in the second half..
You may be right but I doubt that many of those came from City fans. We don't as a rule get giddy as we know how easy it is to fall a long way in a short time and success can be a fleeting thing.
As we know the press and media hype everything and everyone to sell their product and less grounded fans are eager to take mantras and stats as pure cold facts. We can't help that.
Pep seems to have made his decision to come to City in the Spring of 2015 and any squad changes since then we're done with his knowledge and approval.
Pep, Jose, Klopp and Conte can go from hero to zero in a short space of time. At the moment the heat's on Pep and Wenger but in the unlikely event that you lose to Rostov tonight it will be Jose who is in crisis.
Popular opinion is increasingly shaped by the media and their paymasters and we all need to realise that before swallowing the BS that they spout.
On the game last niggt.
The first half was a great tactical victory for Monaco and Jardim.
Monaco prevented Manchester City from building up through the centre forcing them to use the channels in the build up.
They used the strikers and wingers to man mark the cbs and positioned themslevs in a way that forced City to use the sidesand full fbs carried the ball up from wide the Monaco cetral midfielders covered them. They could do this effectvely because the team is very athletic. Manchester City only had Leroy Sane to match.
It worked time and time again and they used the channels to great effect because City players where wide, including the City central players as they went to the flanks to create overloads. When City were counter pressed, their defesive structure was almost non existent and so their centre was ripe for exploitation.
For those that don't understand the importance of the build up I will explain. Lord Cruijff always said that passing to the side backs was terrible for the build up because you have less options as you have access to half the pitch and theoritically half the options as you are at the edge of the field. This means that the build up will not be as clean and it's harder to acces the third man, which is the most important aspect of the positional game. Through the centre, you have more passing options as you have a 180/360 degree view/access so there are more passing angles/options available. Monaco forced the central city players wide and punished them on the counter and they were able to create overloads on the channels using their speed. This is what City have tried in the EPL when they can't access the centre and it worked for City in the second half as Monacos ground coverage was reduced.
In the second half, Monaco could not keep up the intensity in their defensive phase and their lack of horizontal and vertical compactness meant that City had more space between the lines and had greater access to the centre and their build up improved and they were able to accaess the channels and they now gained 3 vs 1 and 2 vs 1 numerical superiority on the flanks.
Monaco had a 2 vs 3 disadvantage in midfield but because they forced the game wide that never bothered them in the first half but in the second half as they could not cover the same ground, the numbers eventually won out for City. THey registered 0 shots in the first half but created enough chances to draw the game and even win at 2-1.
Jardim needs to train his team to be more compact and to cut off passing oprions the way Atletico do so effectively.
They were pressing disjointedly and they left so many gaps. Even when they had men back they were disorganised.
Aguero was a failure in the only elite aspect he had as a claim to fame. Manchester City need to get rid of their full backs and get aother striker. On chances, Manchester City creates enough to go through.
The first half was a great tactical victory for Monaco and Jardim.
Monaco prevented Manchester City from building up through the centre forcing them to use the channels in the build up.
They used the strikers and wingers to man mark the cbs and positioned themslevs in a way that forced City to use the sidesand full fbs carried the ball up from wide the Monaco cetral midfielders covered them. They could do this effectvely because the team is very athletic. Manchester City only had Leroy Sane to match.
It worked time and time again and they used the channels to great effect because City players where wide, including the City central players as they went to the flanks to create overloads. When City were counter pressed, their defesive structure was almost non existent and so their centre was ripe for exploitation.
For those that don't understand the importance of the build up I will explain. Lord Cruijff always said that passing to the side backs was terrible for the build up because you have less options as you have access to half the pitch and theoritically half the options as you are at the edge of the field. This means that the build up will not be as clean and it's harder to acces the third man, which is the most important aspect of the positional game. Through the centre, you have more passing options as you have a 180/360 degree view/access so there are more passing angles/options available. Monaco forced the central city players wide and punished them on the counter and they were able to create overloads on the channels using their speed. This is what City have tried in the EPL when they can't access the centre and it worked for City in the second half as Monacos ground coverage was reduced.
In the second half, Monaco could not keep up the intensity in their defensive phase and their lack of horizontal and vertical compactness meant that City had more space between the lines and had greater access to the centre and their build up improved and they were able to accaess the channels and they now gained 3 vs 1 and 2 vs 1 numerical superiority on the flanks.
Monaco had a 2 vs 3 disadvantage in midfield but because they forced the game wide that never bothered them in the first half but in the second half as they could not cover the same ground, the numbers eventually won out for City. THey registered 0 shots in the first half but created enough chances to draw the game and even win at 2-1.
Jardim needs to train his team to be more compact and to cut off passing oprions the way Atletico do so effectively.
They were pressing disjointedly and they left so many gaps. Even when they had men back they were disorganised.
Aguero was a failure in the only elite aspect he had as a claim to fame. Manchester City need to get rid of their full backs and get aother striker. On chances, Manchester City creates enough to go through.
I agree and it's ridiculous. Managers should be given time as long as there is signs of progress, IMO they should be judged in 2nd season unless their first season is like Moyes'.
This. City is his first big test. This should make it clear whether he is up to it or not.
Personally I think he ll do an average job and take the quickest exit, once his contract ends.
That is absolute nonsense. Only twice has Pep faced a convincing loss away from home (3-0 loss to Barcelona at the Nou Camp, 3-1 loss to Inter at the San Siro) in the first leg. Other times, he came away with a 1-0 loss against Madrid, 1-0 loss against Atletico, 3-1 win against Madrid. All at the SF level, mind. The latter are respectable defeats and no one at the time would have categorized them as massive failures.
Mourinho in comparison, left Atletico with a 0-0 draw, left PSG with a 3-1 loss (still won the tie), got piped away at Dortmund 4-1, lost 2-1 at Bayern in 2012, and drew against CSKA Moscow 1-1. 3 defeats and 2 draws. Of those ties, he advanced twice and got knocked out 3 times.
If you do the same analysis for other coaches, very few (except) Simeone stand out. That supports my theory that Simeone is the best manager on earth over the past few years, and also that Guardiola, for all his faults, has a record that is not substantially worse than his competition. I get that this is a United forum, and we're supposed to loathe everything City, but that doesn't mean we become flat earthers and ignore the numbers.
I assume for the second bolded point, Ancelotti, Mourinho and Ferguson were always underdogs? Only Pep had a superior team to his opposition every time he got knocked out of the CL? Ancelotti with his Milan and PSG and Madrid teams, Fergie with his United teams, Mourinho with his Chelsea and Madrid and Inter teams... all underdogs?
We all laugh at them but to be fair they're still better than us and now with only this to play (and 2 FA Cup games), they'll focus on staying top 4 and they'll beat us for sure
So what's your point? That we shouldn't be allowed to criticise a club that are subjectively "better than us"?
Absolutely
Criticism should always be allowed, but personally I'd cut out the ridicule in such a case.
Guardiola or no, City will never win the CL while they boo its anthem. They've totally hexed themselves.
Incredibly lucky to lose only 1-0. That game could've just as easily ended 4-0
Also unlucky, but the other way 'round. Didn't deserve to lose at all
2-0, and it was down to Pepe's ridiculous red card
Yeah, their aging squad sure looks to be holding up as the season goes on.
That's what I've always said, Pep's methods with an old squad can only improve as the season goes on.
Good old City.
The point being made in this thread is that Pep is vastly overrated because he happened to manage a very special group of players. Barcelona are pointless to this discussion. He had the best player of all time at his disposal. 5 or 6 of that team won multiple International titles under a different coach.
Since he's left Barcelona he has been a failure. He failed miserably with Bayern in Europe, won the League when their closet rivals were in a downturn from the few years prior. This form has continued into City this season. The argument is not that Pep is a bad manager at all, it's that his part in Barcelona's success is heavily overrated and he isn't the mercurial genius that some made him out to be.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you said the same thing about Arsenal. So we should laugh at the clubs below us and speak only the best about City?
Pep is a good manager. He is more attack minded and struggles while organizing a defence. So, if a team can beat his possession based pattern, he looks out of sorts. Mourinho on the other hand is more defense minded and struggles a bit to organize an attack.
I like the fact that Pep always sets his team to attack and play their way without thinking that much about the opposition. Quite a lot like LVG. It does hurt him sometimes but Manchester City want to play a more open attacking game and he is the right manager for them.
Think Pep should hire someone to take care of the defensive side of things though.
I like the fact that Pep always sets his team to attack and play their way without thinking that much about the opposition. Quite a lot like LVG. It does hurt him sometimes but Manchester City want to play a more open attacking game and he is the right manager for them.
Think Pep should hire someone to take care of the defensive side of things though.
I don't know if it's been pointed out, but the team that went out to Monaco last night contained just two Pep signings.
I've said it before, this team cannot consistently implement Pep's brand. The fullbacks being a major issue.
He needs more time to create his own team. He'll get it.
I've said it before, this team cannot consistently implement Pep's brand. The fullbacks being a major issue.
He needs more time to create his own team. He'll get it.
Monaco played some decent stuff but let's face it.... they were lucky to go through. Man City dominated the second half... opened up Monaco countless times. The game at the very least should have finished 2:2.
Monaco players in socond half looked like the couldn't run anymore. They were f*cked.
Monaco players in socond half looked like the couldn't run anymore. They were f*cked.
Are Bravo and Nolito injured?
City were lucky not to get smashed 4 or 5 nil in the first half because Monaco were that dominant and City had 0 shots on goal in the first half.
No, just out of favour.
Fair to say that they even out for the most part?
So you can't really use the 'just two Pep's players' argument, can you? He could've used four of them, it's nobody but his fault that both of them seem to be flops.
It's ridiculous, isn't it?
I reckon a lot of clubs would be happy to fail as miserably as him.