Manchester United are being left behind in youth development - Andy Mitten

[Gopher Brown]

A big part of the problem is that so much is at stake now in football that there simply aren't the opportunities to give young players a chance in the first team. That's why we loan so many out, but this is usually fruitless, as there's a lot at stake for those clubs too.

In 1995 the prize money was less and the job security was greater, so chances could be taken on players. Now, we only started playing Blackett and McNair due to our injury crises. I dare say neither of them would have got anywhere near the team of everyone had stayed fit.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yes.By a good margin but tbf they're now better than everyone, maybe even Barca.

I don't really care about Chelsea as they have a different catchment area so not really our "competitors", plus they invested loads of money into the their system 5-10 years ago.Unlike City they invested very smartly into the coaching methods and staffs, not throwing money into facilities to make a "shiny looking" academy.

Then they're exactly who we should care about. I don't see any reason for us not to also invest loads into youth development given we pride ourselves as one of the elite clubs who really prioritize this sort of stuff.

 

[Dans]

Giggs as youth coach would have gone some way to attracting young talent to our club, but if the facilities and extras aren't coming close to City's then history of the club, the prestige of United etc etc counts for nothing.

 

[datura]

The article is a bit delusionally nostalgic and fails to recognize the big white elephant in the room - that sugar daddy ownership has fundamentally changed football forever, in that the pressure to win now is too great to sustain drawn out youth programs as in the past. Clubs instead buy more established players who can deliver an instant return on investment, for fear that they don't get outflanked by other big clubs. The dynamic has fundamentally changed and people need to get over the fact that it will never go back to the way it was before the likes of Roman and the Arab sheikhs started buying their success.

Yet City and Chelsea have invested probably the most in their youth set-ups in recent years...the only thing missing is first team regulars. Whether they have the right managers in place to promote youth is another issue.

Interestingly, many Barca fans are concerned about La Masia and the outflow of players and lack of promotion of players. Seems they have issues too.

 

[khoazany]

Then they're exactly who we should care about. I don't see any reason for us not to also invest loads into youth development given we pride ourselves as one of the elite clubs who really prioritize this sort of stuff.

I'm not sure what is but there is something that stopped us from investing more money to the youth in the past few years.Last season McGuinness (U18s manager) had to personally travel to scout players for the academy but the budget isn't enough for him to sign them (Fosu-Mensah was signed very cheaply) while City's academy manager had enough fund to fill half of his squad with foreign players.The first year pros like Harrop etc had a take a quite low salary compared to what those who were one year older than them (Rothwell etc) earned.There seems to be more fund available this summer so hopefully there're already some changes in place in terms of policy.

 

[Feed Me]

I don't doubt the veracity of Mitten's article, but let's look at the composition of United's and City's squads.

Next season, Januzaj, Pereira and McNair will be in the first team and, hopefully, racking up a decent number of appearances.

For all the bluster, who will City be fielding of a similar ilk?

Edit: forgot Wilson.

 

[Varun]

I don't doubt the veracity of Mitten's article, but let's look at the composition of United's and City's squads.

Next season, Januzaj, Pereira and McNair will be in the first team and, hopefully, racking up a decent number of appearances.

For all the bluster, who will City be fielding of a similar ilk?

Edit: forgot Wilson.

They have been doing it since the past couple of years. The results will be visible further down the line, not now. Ditto with our setup declining.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm not sure what is but there is something that stopped us from investing more money to the youth in the past few years.Last season McGuinness (U18s manager) had to personally travel to scout players for the academy but the budget isn't enough for him to sign them (Fosu-Mensah was signed very cheaply) while City's academy manager had enough fund to fill half of his squad with foreign players.The first year pros like Harrop etc had a take a quite low salary compared to what those who were one year older than them (Rothwell etc) earned.There seems to be more fund available this summer so hopefully there're already some changes in place in terms of policy.

For me, this is very concerning. As much as people like us to spend the big bucks in the transfer window, us staying in front or at least keeping up with the front runners when it comes to youth development is IMO imperative.

 

[devilish]

Success breeds Success. Once United start winning honours again youth talent will start choosing us instead. Having said that we need to adapt to times and invest more on youths. Also I hope that we learnt the lesson of overrating kids a bit too much earlier in their career (Jones, Januzaj, Evans, OShea etc). It doesn't do them any good. I like the Juventus recent approach tbh. Youth talent, no matter how promising they are, would barely get a sniff to the first team shirt until they prove themselves elsewhere.

 

[Insanity]

I'm not sure what is but there is something that stopped us from investing more money to the youth in the past few years.Last season McGuinness (U18s manager) had to personally travel to scout players for the academy but the budget isn't enough for him to sign them (Fosu-Mensah was signed very cheaply) while City's academy manager had enough fund to fill half of his squad with foreign players.The first year pros like Harrop etc had a take a quite low salary compared to what those who were one year older than them (Rothwell etc) earned.There seems to be more fund available this summer so hopefully there're already some changes in place in terms of policy.

Do you think that is due to the Glazers penny pinching and not being very keen on capital expenditure?

 

[Sweet Square]

They have been doing it since the past couple of years. The results will be visible further down the line, not now. Ditto with our setup declining.

Slightly problem with that this(Part in bold)is that it's been said ever since the owners brought City. It's been 7 years now and all there's been at City is some very nice shiny equipment. City youth system(If going by the last 7 years)will and is very much like Chelsea's in that it's clearly a good place for youth players to go (Chelsea constantly have the best youth teams)but to make that step up to first team football it's a completely useless place to be.


Anyway all this talk of City and youth players is slightly missing the bigger point which is the City owners aren't in the footballing game for footballing reasons(Although really who is)it's all about P.R for United Arab Emirates/Abu Dhabi and the security buying big culture items such as football clubs can bring. Because of this City will always favour the 'big' names than any youth player. It's makes sense really.

As for the actual article it's a bit pointless. The problems Mitten lists are problems that effect every big club in football but he makes it sound like it's a very United only problem. That's not to say some of it could have merit but most of it seems very cheap(RVP and Phil Neville kids picking City over United is hardly a damming failure of United's youth set up)

 

[hebegebe]

City are poaching players, but our academy is still full of fantastic talent in every age group, the main problem is the parents, they have a deluded mindset that they child is going a star and when City come in for them with all these offers it validates their beliefs, I say good riddance to them.

In my opinion, City are trying to develop their youth set up too quickly and are in danger of creating a extremely pressurised environment for young kids to play football. Will a young player be able to express himself, take a chance or have a dip in form when he know's in the back of his mind that his parents are being financially rewarded for him being there, the fear of failure must be massive.

 

[Feed Me]

They have been doing it since the past couple of years. The results will be visible further down the line, not now. Ditto with our setup declining.

Sure, but talk of our youth system declining isn't a new thing, it's been bubbling for a while.

There's two key issues when in comes to youth development: 1) Investing in the required infrastructure, and 2) Taking the plunge and putting YT players in the squad. United don't struggle with the latter, which is why I don't buy all of the negativity from Mitten.

 

[khoazany]

I don't doubt the veracity of Mitten's article, but let's look at the composition of United's and City's squads.

Next season, Januzaj, Pereira and McNair will be in the first team and, hopefully, racking up a decent number of appearances.

For all the bluster, who will City be fielding of a similar ilk?

Edit: forgot Wilson.

Denayer and maybe Iheanacho.Though both of them signed for City when they're 18.

 

[Werder Herzog]

All i took from this is that City threw millions at problem and ban young players from having agents but let the parents have them and bribe them with private education.

No doubt City's facilities are world class but for me it's a double edged sword for them- they spend all this money on youth development but give it the billy big balls about how much money they have which means people expect success which means if you have the choice of signing an Aguero or giving a kid who's played through the youth teams a chance then they will take the former every time.

Most clubs would do the same do not get me wrong , and if kids are being well educated and they go on to play football proffessionally at whatever level then it's a good thing- lets not dress it up as something it isn't though.

Also if this super well oiled machine of getting all the best youngsters from around the world in one place happens at City then they will almost be playing non competitive football as everyone else will just have the left over dregs- which will do the lads there more harm than good. They will never have to face adversity on the pitch.

That's my two cents.

 

[Varun]

Slightly problem with that this(Part in bold)is that it's been said ever since the owners brought City. It's been 7 years now and all there's been at City is some very nice shiny equipment. City youth system(If going by the last 7 years)will and is very much like Chelsea's in that it's clearly a good place for youth players to go (Chelsea constantly have the best youth teams)but to make that step up to first team football it's a completely useless place to be.


Anyway all this talk of City and youth players is slightly missing the bigger point which is the City owners aren't in the footballing game for footballing reasons(Although really who is)it's all about P.R for United Arab Emirates/Abu Dhabi and the security buying big culture items such as football clubs can bring. Because of this City will always favour the 'big' names than any youth player. It's makes sense really.

As for the actual article it's a bit pointless. The problems Mitten lists are problems that effect every big club in football but he makes it sound like it's a very United only problem. That's not to say some of it could have merit but most of it seems very cheap(RVP and Phil Neville kids picking City over United is hardly a damming failure of United's youth set up)

The days of number of youth talents breaking through are over, too much at stake now in the league and too much money involved. Clubs that have the best youth will always benefit from it though. As I said in one of my earlier posts, B teams might happen in the future and it would be a big boost. Even if it doesn't, the better the youths, the better they can get into the team as squad players even if not as starters. That saves the club lots of money seeing the ridiculous prices average players go for nowadays. Clubs also make money by selling these players elsewhere. It's a vicious circle anyways, better the current youth team and setup better the talents it attracts which keeps multiplying

 

[Varun]

Sure, but talk of our youth system declining isn't a new thing, it's been bubbling for a while.

There's two key issues when in comes to youth development: 1) Investing in the required infrastructure, and 2) Taking the plunge and putting YT players in the squad. United don't struggle with the latter, which is why I don't buy all of the negativity from Mitten.

Yup, it's been talked about for a while. Both Chelsea and city seem to have left us behind.

I think most teams will struggle with the later with time, atleast when it comes to starters. I hope we always atleast have players from the academy that are good enough to be squad players. The odd januzaj or Wilson are a bonus. The infrastructure and our whole approach needs betterment judging not just from this article but the general opinion which is sad to see. Van Gaal is among the best we could possibly have to change that though which fills me with confidence.

 

[Red_toad]

We keep hearing about how wonderful City's academy is and how rubbish ours is, but the fact remains no-one is coming through City's academy into the first team. Two players in the last 10 years still play for them, let alone made it. Their youth teams came mid table in the U21 league and in the U18 league.

We played 15 academy graduates this season alone.

Have to agree we produce a lot of decent players, who have established themselves in the Premier League. From City I can think of Richards?
A lot of United's issues are down to competition for players in the available areas. United do need a figurehead to attract players. Would be good to see someone step into McClair's position, who is a well known player associated with the club. Someone who will promote their vision, which is exactly what City have been doing.

 

[Dr Fink]

The comment early on about the gulf between Utd and City's academies is laughable to some extent. The blue half's might be light years ahead, but how many home grown, youth players are in their first team? Exactly. Churning them out for other teams and buying success (the modern way). Discussed in many other threads.

 

[Vooon]

The article is a bit delusionally nostalgic and fails to recognize the big white elephant in the room - that sugar daddy ownership has fundamentally changed football forever, in that the pressure to win now is too great to sustain drawn out youth programs as in the past. Clubs instead buy more established players who can deliver an instant return on investment, for fear that they don't get outflanked by other big clubs. The dynamic has fundamentally changed and people need to get over the fact that it will never go back to the way it was before the likes of Roman and the Arab sheikhs started buying their success.

In a way I agree, but I think he addresses the fact that United has failed to react to this development for several years. He touches into fact that the club seem(ed) to believe that talent and players will always choose United over almost any other club because of the reputation, legacy and history. This presumption seems to be more or less dead by now, and probably hasn't been valid for quite a few years.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

To have a successful Academy you need three main things.

1. Infrastructure (facilities, coaches and scouting network)
2. Strategy (clear leadership and a plan for future change
3. Strength (the best local and international talent)

Without any doubt other Academies have left United behind in all three areas in the last 5-10 years. Ferguson took his eye of the ball in his final years and McClair didn't provide the leadership needed as a Director of Youth Development.

Now we have no-one in charge, a system whereby many players don't get game time, a massive lack of leadership, reduced number of scouts, players and parents disillusioned with some of the coaching amongst a range of big issues.

I am a big advocate of our youth system but we DO have big problems.

It's great that we still give youngsters a chance in the first team but in the past 15 years only three youth players have amassed more than 100 appearances. That's 15 crops of juniors which have fundamentally not established themselves with us.

I love the fact that over 120 former United juniors are playing professional football around the world, but I'd be more happy if we produced more for our first team.

While things appear ok on the outside, Andy Mitten writes with good insight and I agree totally with him that behind closed doors we need to re-establish ourselves very quickly.

 

[hobbers]

I'll start to worry when City's academy actually produces a good number of players who end up suitable for the top leagues/second tier leagues.

And even if that happens, with their current model it doesn't matter how much talent they produce, none of them will ever see a minute of first team action at City.

Although it is a fair point that our academy has seriously gone downhill in the last 5-10 years and massive changes are needed.

 

[Brightonian]

Yaaaaaawn.

To be fair, the stars look a bit thin on the ground there... oh yeah, that's because Januzaj, Wilson, Pereira, McNair and Blackett were all with the first team for the game against Arsenal. Not something City will have to worry about much if their youngsters ever win any trophies.

 

[hebegebe]

Yaaaaaawn.

To be fair, the stars look a bit thin on the ground there... oh yeah, that's because Januzaj, Wilson, Pereira, McNair and Blackett were all with the first team for the game against Arsenal. Not something City will have to worry about much if their youngsters ever win any trophies.

Yaaaaawn, totally missing the point.

 

[AllezLesDiables]

I'll start to worry when City's academy actually produces a good number of players who end up suitable for the top leagues/second tier leagues.

And even if that happens, with their current model it doesn't matter how much talent they produce, none of them will ever see a minute of first team action at City.

Although it is a fair point that our academy has seriously gone downhill in the last 5-10 years and massive changes are needed.

To be successful you can't wait to see that you've fallen behind. To be at the top you have to constantly be improving.

Denayer is well beyond any prospect at United and feel free to come back to this post in a few years when Barca, Real, and Bayern are throwing out large sums of money to try to buy him.

Januzaj's development has been handled horribly.

 

[MJJ]

Success breeds Success. Once United start winning honours again youth talent will start choosing us instead. Having said that we need to adapt to times and invest more on youths. Also I hope that we learnt the lesson of overrating kids a bit too much earlier in their career (Jones, Januzaj, Evans, OShea etc). It doesn't do them any good. I like the Juventus recent approach tbh. Youth talent, no matter how promising they are, would barely get a sniff to the first team shirt until they prove themselves elsewhere.

Pogba, coman?

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Januzaj's development has been handled horribly.

I think that's more to do with two managers with different philosophies. Januzaj has just been unlucky I think.
Last season Van Gaal didn't have a clue about our team, and then panic bought, which meant that januzaj had limited opportunities.
To be honest, I don't think he was that great with his opportunities last season. Great players force themselves into the team. Remember Hughes, Whiteside, Giggs, Bekham etc?
They took their chances well.

 

[AkaAkuma]

I think the story creates a lot of worry without looking at the bigger picture.

Over the last 20 years how many top level players have the top four clubs produced?

Chelsea - terry
Arsenal - wilshere, gibbs (fabregas, clichy, song, szcesny, bellerin - good foreign scouting)
Liverpool - Owen, Fowler, Gerrard, Carragher, Mcmanaman
United - Giggs, scholes, beckham, nevilles, butt, oshea, fletcher, brown, wellbeck (pique, rossi, pogba etc)

If city attract from both manchester and liverpool catchments then they might just get a golden generation, but they also need the balls to play them.

 

[devilish]

Pogba, coman?

I am referring to homegrown talent. Even in those case plenty of effort was made not to overrate the kids. For example Coman's rise to prominence hasn't stopped Juve to invest big upfront this year

Pogba is the exception to the case. He is a beast, he had played in numerous clubs (Le Harve, Manchester United etc) at quite a young age and it would have been pretty stupid not to give him regular first team football

 

[Livewire1974]

So, the under 21 team won the league and our youth system is shit? How does that work?

 

[Brightonian]

Yaaaaawn, totally missing the point.

No mate, that's precisely what I'm not doing. I understand everyone's getting their knickers in a twist over City paying parents in order to hoover up all the talent in the early age groups, and the fact that we're not doing the same. But I simply can't bring myself to give a feck whilst our academy continues to so resoundingly outperform theirs in terms of output.

Show me a trophy, a kid actually playing for the first team, a bevy of Premier League and football league alumni anywhere near the size of ours (or reaching the heights of superstardom elsewhere, á la Pique or Pogba), and I'll jump on board the waaaahmbulance.

 

[Sir A1ex]

So, the under 21 team won the league

Apparently LVG was "underwhelmed" by this. I'm not sure what else he was hoping they would win, Mitten doesn't go on to elaborate on this point.

 

[Cheesy]

I think the story creates a lot of worry without looking at the bigger picture.

Over the last 20 years how many top level players have the top four clubs produced?

Chelsea - terry
Arsenal - wilshere, gibbs (fabregas, clichy, song, szcesny, bellerin - good foreign scouting)
Liverpool - Owen, Fowler, Gerrard, Carragher, Mcmanaman
United - Giggs, scholes, beckham, nevilles, butt, oshea, fletcher, brown, wellbeck (pique, rossi, pogba etc)

If city attract from both manchester and liverpool catchments then they might just get a golden generation, but they also need the balls to play them.

I think that’s being a bit kind to us, to be honest. The likes of Giggs, Beckham and Scholes were all technically in the youth development stages of their careers just over 20 years ago now, with Beckham and Scholes largely starting to get some first team chances at that point. We had a golden era at that point, but it’s our utter failure since then which is quite worrying.

The likes of O’Shea, Fletcher and Brown were all great servants and offered a lot to us, but they were often squad players, and weren’t really world class as such. Again, Welbeck is a decent player, but he’s not top class. If he was, we wouldn’t have sold him. He’s done nothing to make it look like getting rid of him was a bad idea, either.

Granted, the Premier League has been fairly poor in general with youth development, but that’s not something we should really use to defend our own development. Chelsea, for example, have been the 2nd most successful English club behind us in the past 10 years, but their record is absolutely horrendous. If we’re having to use them to defend our own poor record, then something’s gone wrong.

Other top clubs like Barca and Bayern have shown that it is possible to build a side with top youth prospects in them. Barca are the most successful example, and Bayern follow behind them. Obviously it’s difficult to emulate that, but we need to make a better effort than we currently are.

 

[Cheesy]

So, the under 21 team won the league and our youth system is shit? How does that work?

It’s all well and good for a youth side to be successful, but it’s ultimately meaningless if the players in question don’t eventually go on to succeed. That’s the purpose of a youth system: to develop homegrown players, or sometimes non-homegrown ones who are developed from a young age, who can eventually become top players. Of course, this current crop could potentially do that, but considering our barren spell, I’m a bit sceptical as to whether it’ll happen.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

Van gaal is a believer of youth. Arguably only one of few left at this level. Iv followed him enough to know that our youth will no doubt succeed and its merely a matter of time.

We've not overspent on a single player this year and no one that misbalances the side with authority to start. The space is there. Mcnair is already in the good books of van gaal and similar players of the past have gone on to become legends. It's not about player ability but more to do about how players are utilised to their strengths.

Big season for Wilson; my trust in our future lies with him.

 

[datura]

Apparently LVG was "underwhelmed" by this. I'm not sure what else he was hoping they would win, Mitten doesn't go on to elaborate on this point.

I assumed he meant he was underwhelmed by the quality of the players.

 

[Sweet Square]

I assumed he meant he was underwhelmed by the quality of the players.

It could've of being the facilities at United.

If it was the players then it wouldn't really add up as Van Gaal played youth players last season(in big games as well) and then this tour coming up there's rumours that there's going to be alot of youth players going on tour(including some players from the u18's).

So the idea of Van Gaal being disappointed at standard of players in the youth setup doesn't make much sense(Although it could well be true but because the article so unclear at times, we are left guessing.)

 

[Ace of Spades]

The big question is, what is the club doing to correct these shortcomings ??

Is there a plan to improve the youth system ?

IIRC, LVG said that he was asked to improve the Academy when he was appointed.

 

[noodlehair]

There's some stuff in that article that we all know is true and it's right to an extent, but it's also ridiculously over the top in how negative it is. It makes it sound like United hire out some Sunday pub league field and just get a bunch of volunteer dads to train their youth players. It also sounds like someone told someone to write an article to basicallly advertise Man City. Of course City are gooing to have spent a load of money on revamping their youth set up...that's because a) they basically didnt have one, and b) they spent a load of money on revamping every fecking thing.

United do need to make sure it doesn't leave them behind, but you'd think reading that United would have to build a small town dedicated to training young footballers just to compete. Daft.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Unfortunately, we're not in the position at the moment to put faith in our youth. Once we stabilize the ship, I'm sure we'll look into youth again.