Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'

NasirTimothy

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I like them. I also like lots other films. Some of them are silent from the 1920s. Some are Italian from the 1940s, and some are even 1970s films made by Martin Scorsese. I have many types of films in my library and I watch them based on my mood at the given moment. No different to eating a burger and chips every now and then rather than insisting upon haute cuisine every meal.
I have watched Marvel movies and I enjoyed some of them, but I do think the saturation of the market with these films is problematic. Nowadays, it’s tough to get an original story made. Everything is sequels, remakes and comic book flicks.

I think that was Scorsese’s concern but I didn’t really like the way he put it because it came across as very snobbish. And the irony of that is the fact that his films can pander to the lowest common denominator in many ways because they are often over-reliant on violence.

He’s one of the best Americans around at the moment but he’s hardly Kurosawa or Bergman when it comes to the subtleties of the cinematic arts.
 

Vidyoyo

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Marvel movies are the pinnacle of art. I'd much rather zone out for 2 hours on mindless trash shouting and hollaing at the screen than watch a pointless 8 hour Hungarian movie about the bleakness of the universe and the absurdity of the cosmos.
 
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VorZakone

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I'd rather watch Con Air, Speed, Die Hard, The Rock etc if I'm looking for some dumb fun, instead of these superhero movies.
 

OleBoiii

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Meh, who needs new movies anyways. I'm glad that there are still so many films that I haven't seen. I always write down the ones I enjoyed a lot. Over time my hope is to have a list of several hundred films that I love. And then I'll just recycle them until my final days :p
 

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I have watched Marvel movies and I enjoyed some of them, but I do think the saturation of the market with these films is problematic. Nowadays, it’s tough to get an original story made. Everything is sequels, remakes and comic book flicks.

I think that was Scorsese’s concern but I didn’t really like the way he put it because it came across as very snobbish. And the irony of that is the fact that his films can pander to the lowest common denominator in many ways because they are often over-reliant on violence.

He’s one of the best Americans around at the moment but he’s hardly Kurosawa or Bergman when it comes to the subtleties of the cinematic arts.
They just announced what, 8 movies over the next two and a half years? Hardly saturation. I agree that cinema does feel stale but I think that's a market problem rather than the fault of the MCU who are just doing their own thing.
 

calodo2003

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They just announced what, 8 movies over the next two and a half years? Hardly saturation. I agree that cinema does feel stale but I think that's a market problem rather than the fault of the MCU who are just doing their own thing.
Eight movies of the same ilk over 2.5 years is very much saturation. It’s not like a movie exists in a vacuum.

Please don’t discuss the ‘nuance’ that exists in these movies.
 

Smores

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There's nothing worse than elitists who think only high brow content is to be enjoyed. You're supposed to go through that period and then mature towards accepting all kind of content can be enjoyable. It's a massive lack of character to get stuck trying to use content to showcase your own high tastes.

If people don't like marvel that's just a preference that's normal. I don't really like most action flicks, horrors or mob films but i don't feel the need to label them as shit, if some enjoy them then great.

As for scorcese I've enjoyed most of his films but they're hardly pieces of art that leave you reflecting on a theme.
 

Cait Sith

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You know how right the man is when you have watched all Avengers movies just last year then randomly see it on TV again at your parents' home like 10 months after and you remember nothing from the plot and not even which of the Avenger movies this actually is.
 

decorativeed

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Eight movies of the same ilk over 2.5 years is very much saturation. It’s not like a movie exists in a vacuum.

Please don’t discuss the ‘nuance’ that exists in these movies.
It's like complaining that Toyota continue to make cars. It doesn't stop Ford or Tesla or Hyundai making cars, nor does it stop the boutique companies experimenting with the form.

While these films are popular, they'll continue to produce them.
 

Vidyoyo

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There's nothing worse than elitists who think only high brow content is to be enjoyed. You're supposed to go through that period and then mature towards accepting all kind of content can be enjoyable. It's a massive lack of character to get stuck trying to use content to showcase your own high tastes.

If people don't like marvel that's just a preference that's normal. I don't really like most action flicks, horrors or mob films but i don't feel the need to label them as shit, if some enjoy them then great.

As for scorcese I've enjoyed most of his films but they're hardly pieces of art that leave you reflecting on a theme.
Agree with this. I used to be quite critical about them but over time realised Marvel movies can be very enjoyable once you've undergone enough shocks to your frontal lobe.
 

Oldyella

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It's like complaining that Toyota continue to make cars. It doesn't stop Ford or Tesla or Hyundai making cars, nor does it stop the boutique companies experimenting with the form.

While these films are popular, they'll continue to produce them.
Its hard to get exact figures but one site states Universal made 227 western themed movies between 1930 and 1954, including shorts and serials. And they were only the 4th biggest producer of them. I wonder if people would have been complaining about all the westerns at the time?

This is a phase just like any other and will slow down at some point. Sci-fi saw off the western, wonder what will see off super hero movies?
 

decorativeed

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You know how right the man is when you have watched all Avengers movies just last year then randomly see it on TV again at your parents' home like 10 months after and you remember nothing from the plot and not even which of the Avenger movies this actually is.
I wonder how Scorsese felt in the 50s when sci-fi films like Invaders From Mars, It Came from Outer Space, Them, Forbidden Planet, Earth Vs the Flying Saucers or 20 Million Miles to Earth dominated the cinemas? They were targeted at the same audience demographic as today's Marvel films. Did he enjoy them for the excapist thrills they offered his generation in between learning how to duck and cover under his school desk from incoming Russian nukes, or did he complain that everyone should have been spending their time exclusively watching La Strada, Kanal or The Seventh Seal?

Basically, cinema is capable of sustaining itself based on a mix of the popular mainstream and independent innovators, just as it always has. People want different things from it and continue to get it.
 

calodo2003

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It's like complaining that Toyota continue to make cars. It doesn't stop Ford or Tesla or Hyundai making cars, nor does it stop the boutique companies experimenting with the form.

While these films are popular, they'll continue to produce them.
A bit easier to compare a Ford to a Hyundai to a Tesla than it is to compare a Scorsese movie to a Marvel movie.

A technological jump from a Hyundai to a Tesla is perhaps equatable from a Scorsese movie to a Marvel movie, not quite in storytelling or in content. Surreality has its intellectual limits.
 

decorativeed

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A bit easier to compare a Ford to a Hyundai to a Tesla than it is to compare a Scorsese movie to a Marvel movie.

A technological jump from a Hyundai to a Tesla is perhaps equatable from a Scorsese movie to a Marvel movie, not quite in storytelling or in content. Surreality has its limits.
I don't see that big of a difference. How is Hugo massively different in terms of the artform to what Marvel do? Is After Hours as good as Infinity War? I like all those films, for different reasons, and for viewing in different circumstances.

Edit: Got the wrong name for After Hours originally.
 

calodo2003

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I don't see that big of a difference. How is Hugo massively different in terms of the artform to what Marvel do? Is After Hours as good as Infinity War? I like all those films, for different reasons, and for viewing in different circumstances.

Edit: Got the wrong name for After Hours originally.
There’s dabbling in a motif or a theme, then there’s having a style, then there’s overkill.

It’s market driven & it’s opinion, no doubt.

But the incessant suspension of disbelief doesn’t fit the bill for many out there.

Someone earlier wrote that one grows up to accept things like Marvel, but one also grows out of childish whimsy.
 

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Scorsese argument was never that people shouldn't watch these films or that they are shite wastes of time. His point was that marvel films are no different than the rides at a amusement park and shouldn't be counted as cinema. Which then comic books fans oddly enough go one better and say watching Iron Man part 4000 is like eating McNuggets. No Mr Scorsese the MCU isn't like the log flumes at adventure world, it's actually more eating mashed up chicken anus in between two pieces of 3 week old bread.

Now shut up you elitist!
 
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DoomSlayer

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What is the debate here? Comic book stories are trash or modern-day big movies are trash?

If you ever enjoyed Marvel, DC or any other type of animated stories in any form, then I don't see how you wouldn't like the Marvel movies or any ones with similar identity.

Maybe I just don't understand the basis of the debate here, but I think the acting and producing has mostly been top notch, especially if we go to serialised shows like Daredevil and the Punisher.
 

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Ten MCU movies in the next two years....bloody hell, if that's not oversaturation, I don't know what is. I really enjoyed MCU before, but I think I am done after Endgame, this is too much of the same in short span of time. Especially if they are leading this "phase" with horrible Captain Marvel.
 

Vidyoyo

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There’s dabbling in a motif or a theme, then there’s having a style, then there’s overkill.

It’s market driven & it’s opinion, no doubt.

But the incessant suspension of disbelief doesn’t fit the bill for many out there.

Someone earlier wrote that one grows up to accept things like Marvel, but one also grows out of childish whimsy.
People don't grow out of childish whiny, they become better at it over time.

Or so it seems...
 

acnumber9

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My biggest issue with the whole Marvel thing and Disney stuff in general now is that each film is just becoming a giant advert for their next one. Characters introduced just to set up their own film or tv show.
 

SalfordRed18

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Ten MCU movies in the next two years....bloody hell, if that's not oversaturation, I don't know what is. I really enjoyed MCU before, but I think I am done after Endgame, this is too much of the same in short span of time. Especially if they are leading this "phase" with horrible Captain Marvel.
Pretty certain it's 7 over the next 2 and a half years with 2 of those 7 coming out this year. Could be wrong though.

Also, doctor strange seems to be leading this phase, not captain marvel. Wouldn't be shocked if the marvels was Brie Larsons last outing considering the characters appearing.
 

decorativeed

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There’s dabbling in a motif or a theme, then there’s having a style, then there’s overkill.

It’s market driven & it’s opinion, no doubt.

But the incessant suspension of disbelief doesn’t fit the bill for many out there.

Someone earlier wrote that one grows up to accept things like Marvel, but one also grows out of childish whimsy.
I've found that it's cyclical to some degree. I liked kids films when I was a kid, then I watched a lot more challenging stuff into my late teens and 20s, then I got bored with the grim bleakness of the likes of Requiem for a Dream, Happiness and Antichrist, and I'm more likely to seek out and enjoy a lot lighter stuff now I'm in my 40s. There's something to be said for retaining a childlike sense of joy and wonder, especially as so much of adulthood and the real world is so awful!
 

OleBoiii

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What is the debate here?
I guess Team Scorsese's stance can be summarized like this:

1. Just to be clear: all these superhero movies are just simple popcorn movies. Beyond the high budget and special effects, there's nothing special about them. And there's nothing wrong with this. Just please don't try to hype them up as anything more.

2. Popcorn movies have always existed, but at least some of the popcorn movies of the past were based on original scripts or at the very least a story/character that hadn't been a cinematic success before, hence making it feel fresh.

3. The entire sales pitch of these Marvel and DC movies are the brand itself. You don't bother to read the plot or even focus on what's happening in the trailer. People just see the 'Marvel' stamp and are sold.

4. The frequency of these popcorn movies seem to be on the rise. I guess people are afraid that the movie industry will be split in two: Marvel/DC/Disney and arthouse. We can criticise the Oscars, but at least they've kind of served as the bridge between arthouse and popcorn. Soon that bridge may effectively be gone.
 

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I guess Team Scorsese's stance can be summarized like this:

1. Just to be clear: all these superhero movies are just simple popcorn movies. Beyond the high budget and special effects, there's nothing special about them. And there's nothing wrong with this. Just please don't try to hype them up as anything more.

2. Popcorn movies have always existed, but at least some of the popcorn movies of the past were based on original scripts or at the very least a story/character that hadn't been a cinematic success before, hence making it feel fresh.

3. The entire sales pitch of these Marvel and DC movies are the brand itself. You don't bother to read the plot or even focus on what's happening in the trailer. People just see the 'Marvel' stamp and are sold.

4. The frequency of these popcorn movies seem to be on the rise. I guess people are afraid that the movie industry will be split in two: Marvel/DC/Disney and arthouse. We can criticise the Oscars, but at least they've kind of served as the bridge between arthouse and popcorn. Soon that bridge may effectively be gone.
I only agree with the part about remaking old stories and movies, but that's always been happening, or am I wrong?

It's the same way with books or anything to do with culture, old stories get retold and reshaped to the current era.

I disagree about the plots and stories being neglected. I personally always look for it and it's the major part that hooks me in, the special effects are just an add-on.

There have been some shallow movies, definitely, but you see that in every genre. Also, when I mentioned animated movies and series, people should look into the work of the voice actors, there are some amazingly talented people, who have made a mark in history with their performances. It's a proper art form in itself.
 

OleBoiii

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but that's always been happening, or am I wrong?
Remakes/reboots are nothing new, but they seem to be way more frequent now. I just can't see an ambitious project like LOTR(which actually was a risk considering how poorly the fantasy/adventure genre had done before) or movies like The Matrix get released these days. And some people are understandably bored by this. If you don't like Marvel, DC or Disney, then you are gradually gonna get fewer and fewer options.

I personally always look for it and it's the major part that hooks me in, the special effects are just an add-on.
That's fine. People like what they like. I just happen to disagree :)

Also, when I mentioned animated movies and series, people should look into the work of the voice actors, there are some amazingly talented people, who have made a mark in history with their performances. It's a proper art form in itself.
This is an entirely different topic. Btw, I love animation. Satoshi Kon is my favorite director.
 

DoomSlayer

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Remakes/reboots are nothing new, but they seem to be way more frequent now. I just can't see an ambitious project like LOTR(which actually was a risk considering how poorly the fantasy/adventure genre had done before) or movies like The Matrix get released these days. And some people are understandably bored by this. If you don't like Marvel, DC or Disney, then you are gradually gonna get fewer and fewer options.



That's fine. People like what they like. I just happen to disagree :)



This is an entirely different topic. Btw, I love animation. Satoshi Kon is my favorite director.
To be honest, I think the fantasy and sci-fi genre mostly translates better when done in animated form. But I still like the live-action movies and series (probably prefer the latter to the former).

I would like to see more movies of this sort made in a similar fashion to Nolan's Batman trilogy. Some of the planned Marvel movies look like total trash, to be perfectly honest.
 

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Marvel at least have (or had) a fair bit of variety in their franchise, in the previous "phase". Though I have no doubt with the never-ending conveyor belt of sequels coming up they will start going off a cliff in terms of originality and quality of writing.

All the other action film franchises are considerably worse. Every action film of the last 15 years basically boil down to Cruise/Keanu/Statham/Vin Diesel/The Rock playing exactly the same characters in carbon copy plots, with near identical set pieces, and with the same supporting casts on rotation.
Not to derail the debate but this guy gets away with making bad movies. In terms of originality in Hollywood he's far worse than Marvel.
 

12OunceEpilogue

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:lol:

Lucas probably prefers this sort of critique as he must be really tired of people trashing his writing(dialogue in particular).
From that thread there is a video dissecting and pushing back the 'Star Wars was saved in the edit' trope, which I found pretty good to skim through after falling down the rabbit hole half an hour or so ago:


For me you can by all means criticise Lucas as a filmmaker, and you can pick apart facets of the films you don't like (the dialogue throughout the films is a good example as you say) but the way people seem to want to portray Lucas as some kind of child who scribbled the first script in crayons and had it rescued once he brought some adults into the room is a bit much.
 

Hugh Jass

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Ten MCU movies in the next two years....bloody hell, if that's not oversaturation, I don't know what is. I really enjoyed MCU before, but I think I am done after Endgame, this is too much of the same in short span of time. Especially if they are leading this "phase" with horrible Captain Marvel.
Yea it is quantity of quality now if feel. All about money.