Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic

[Gasolin]

Maybe you don't how UK law works as I know it is different in the States. But the reason Greenwood was not convicted was not because he was found to be innocent or because he produced evidence to show that he did not commit the crimes he was charged with. It was because his partner withdrew her testimony. Remember this is the partner that he broke his bail conditions by approaching and spending time with, when he was not meant to be anywhere near her. Without her evidence, the Crown prosecution service (which prosecutes all crimes in the UK) decided they didn't have a realistic chance of proving his guilt beyond all reasonable doubt and so they dropped the charges. That in no way presumes innocence.

It's the same everywhere in the world. But just because he wasn't convicted and you don't like it doesn't make him guilty legally. It could have gone to trial and similar to OJ Simpson, be acquitted yet people would say there is this evidence that they cannot forget and therefore can't shake the feeling that he got away. Ultimately, the authorities in the UK dropped charges because they thought they couldn't convict him. It happens everyday in all type of crimes. All these people are not considered guilty by law. A lot of the issue here is due to that audio/video evidence that people saw, and now they think this is all of it.

Like many have said, even if the victim became hostile, the authorities could have pressed charges. They had this famous audio/video evidence. If they chose not to despite this evidence that seems so certain that many are unwilling to change their stance, then it doesn't add up. It's either the evidence is so strong, and even if the victim testified against the prosection, he would get convicted, or somehow it's not strong enough and couldn't get a definite conviction as soon as the victim doesn't want to cooperate. Therefore, I think that we must be missing a whole picture.

And the reason why the family is not releasing anything? Whatever happened in the rest of the audio/video, while not related to domestic violence, must not be great. Therefore, they don't see any benefit of releasing it.

 

[The Boy]

It's the same everywhere in the world. But just because he wasn't convicted and you don't like it doesn't make him guilty legally. It could have gone to trial and similar to OJ Simpson, be acquitted yet people would say there is this evidence that they cannot forget and therefore can't shake the feeling that he got away. Ultimately, the authorities in the UK dropped charges because they thought they couldn't convict him. It happens everyday in all type of crimes. All these people are not considered guilty by law. A lot of it is due to that audio/video evidence that people saw, and now they think this is all of it.

Like many have said, even if the victim became hostile, the authorities could have pressed charges. They had this famous audio/video evidence. If they chose not to despite this evidence that seems so certain that many are unwilling to change their stance, then it doesn't add up. It's either the evidence is so strong, and even if the victim testified against the prosection, he would get convicted, or something it's not strong enough and couldn't get a definite conviction as soon as the victim doesn't want to cooperate. Therefore, I think that we must be missing a whole picture.

And the reason why the family is not releasing anything? Whatever happened in the rest of the video, while not related to domestic violence, but not be great. Therefore, they don't see any benefit of releasing it.

I didn't say I didn't like it, I'm just saying it doesn't prove innocence, weirdly we're using the same argument as you're saying it doesn't prove guilt and you're right. But using the line "he wasn't convicted" isn't a good argument to say it's all fine he just needs to apologise and everything will be ok again.

 

[cafecillos]

I’ve been wanting to post in this thread for a while but didn’t want to be chastised for my opinion, until tonigh. Living in NYC, it’s difficult to get an opinion from someone cross the pond. This evening, I met an Irish United fan/bartender who sort of validated the opinion I had. We would take him back in a heartbeat.

We’ve spent 150+million ($£€) on right sided wingers who have been nothing short of dreadful. The United way of wingers skiing past defenders has only been executed by a teenage academy product and overlapping wingbacks has been lost since Shaw has been out (granted Dalot has it in his game but the pace isnt there). Greenwood’s ability to beat his man, pick a pass, hold up play and most importantly, finish, would be leagues ahead of anything the right side has produced this season. He was instrumental during Ole ball and was outstanding for Getafe, despite the long hiatus from the game.

This bartender had his own views on his personal situation and made some valid points that I probably shouldn’t share. We forgive NFL NBA and MLB players for ridiculous crimes as their teams don’t want to give up on their investment. Honestly he was a teenager in the modern world where social media and this sort of need to film and document even the dumbest shit has been the standard amongst his generation. He wasn’t convicted of any crime and for a lot of fans it felt more like a weird personal bedroom behavior issue. I feel he deserves a second chance to become a man, atone for his mistakes, and apologize to the fans. Hopefully becoming a father and getting older will help him down that path to reconciliation with the Manchester United family and if doesn’t work out here, I wish him all the best where he lands.

This is a horrific way to describe what we saw and heard, and, although I'm not going to report it myself, I think that alone is comfortably ban worthy.

 

[Darlington Padgett]

I think this thread needs to be closed.

 

[duffer]

I think this thread needs to be closed.

Don't read it if you don't like it. There is an "ignore thread" option as well.

 

[Sunny Jim]

A genuine question who those who don't want him back.

The person most affected by his behavior is Greenwood's Partners. As far as i know they live together, they have a child (which must have been conceived after whole things).
So if she has forgiven him why the fans cannot?

to make it clear - it's a genuine question, maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Pickle85]

A genuine question who those who don't want him back.

The person most affected by his behavior is Greenwood's Partners. As far as i know they live together, they have a child (which must have been conceived after whole things).
So if she has forgiven him why the fans cannot?

to make it clear - it's a genuine question, maybe I'm missing something.

Without wishing to be a dick, if you're asking this 'genuinely' what you must have missed are the previous 371 pages of this thread.

 

[golden_blunder]

A genuine question who those who don't want him back.

The person most affected by his behavior is Greenwood's Partners. As far as i know they live together, they have a child (which must have been conceived after whole things).
So if she has forgiven him why the fans cannot?

to make it clear - it's a genuine question, maybe I'm missing something.

It’s quite common for partners in abusive relationships to stay in that relationship

 

[duffer]

A genuine question who those who don't want him back.

The person most affected by his behavior is Greenwood's Partners. As far as i know they live together, they have a child (which must have been conceived after whole things).
So if she has forgiven him why the fans cannot?

to make it clear - it's a genuine question, maybe I'm missing something.

This kinda thing (domestic violence) is personal for a lot of people. My mum was abused by her partner when I was little. She forgave him but that had not impact on my feeling about him.

Victims of domestic violence very, very, very often forgive their abusers. In fact victims of a lot of crimes forgive the person who committed the crime. Maybe they are just much nicer people.

 

[Slops]

A genuine question who those who don't want him back.

The person most affected by his behavior is Greenwood's Partners. As far as i know they live together, they have a child (which must have been conceived after whole things).
So if she has forgiven him why the fans cannot?

to make it clear - it's a genuine question, maybe I'm missing something.

This has been repeatedly trodden in this thread. Victims of domestic abuse often stay with or return to their partners and it doesn't necessarily equate to forgiveness, nor does it mean any kind of abuse or coercion isn't ongoing. It's a complex situation, and if they do remain together I hope they have a productive and healthy relationship, but it changes absolutely nothing for me regarding the original incident when I've heard the audio and seen the pictures. I don't think their continued relationship means anyone has to automatically be okay with him returning to Manchester United.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Without wishing to be a dick, if you're asking this 'genuinely' what you must have missed are the previous 371 pages of this thread.

I avoid this thread.

 

[Sunny Jim]

It’s quite common for partners in abusive relationships to stay in that relationship

This has been repeatedly trodden in this thread. Victims of domestic abuse often stay with or return to their partners and it doesn't necessarily equate to forgiveness, nor does it mean any kind of abuse or coercion isn't ongoing. It's a complex situation, and if they do remain together I hope they have a productive and healthy relationship, but it changes absolutely nothing for me regarding the original incident when I've heard the audio and seen the pictures. I don't think their continued relationship means anyone has to automatically be okay with him returning to Manchester United.

I avoid this thread.

many thanks. I didn't take such view into account.

 

[moses]

I avoid this thread.

Maybe you shouldn't if you're curious?

Also there are endless women's welfare sites where you could have found the answer.

 

[Desert Eagle]

A genuine question who those who don't want him back.

The person most affected by his behavior is Greenwood's Partners. As far as i know they live together, they have a child (which must have been conceived after whole things).
So if she has forgiven him why the fans cannot?

to make it clear - it's a genuine question, maybe I'm missing something.

Start with the obvious. The fans and his partner have different relationships with MG. No one knows what is going on in their relationship right now, it could still be terrible and toxic or it could be happy and healthy. That is for the two of them to figure out.

The fans have some attachment to him being homegrown and talented, but be very sure that if MG was a shite player, there would be much less sympathy for him. So what you end up with is two groups of fans: 1) who look at things through a moral lens above a football lens. They consider MGs actions horrific and would like to avoid him ever representing the club again. 2) who put football above any morality and just see a talented homegrown player who made a "mistake"

There is also a huge element of hypocrisy in these things. Ronaldo, Kobe, Best, Neymar, Ribery, Benzema etc have all had sexual assault allegations but are treated differently based upon circumstances and media. The MG situation is more visceral because there is audio and photo evidence and because Manchester United.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

A genuine question who those who don't want him back.

The person most affected by his behavior is Greenwood's Partners. As far as i know they live together, they have a child (which must have been conceived after whole things).
So if she has forgiven him why the fans cannot?

to make it clear - it's a genuine question, maybe I'm missing something.

I feel sorry for her and the kid tbh. It doesn't seem like her parents are good people. His weird comments around the time of the incident.

As someone who is well informed on domestic abuse issues, it's not surprising that she's back with him. My ex gf's sister was with her partner for years and he used to abuse her physically. It wasn't until she lost her baby from physical violence that she confided in family and found the support to leave him. He basically love bombed her.

How convenient for Greenwood that he got her pregnant and allegedly proposed to her not long after the incident. Definitely not a PR tactic.

My own personal take on the matter is that ******* didn't want to leak the photos and audio. I believe that she probably confided in a close friend, and then that friend leaked the content to get it out to the world.

This is just guesswork on my part. We're likely never going to find out the truth. But I highly doubt she made it up. Greenwood wouldn't be with her if she tried to ruin his career.

She can forgive him. That's her prerogative. I don't want someone like him back at the club. He wasn't even playing that well before all of this blew up. He had the world at his feet as an 18 years old. His 20/21 season wasn't as good as his 19/20 season. His numbers declined each season after 19/20.

 

[El Jefe]

I’m okay with any decision the club makes. If we keep him, we have a potential solution to our attacking problems and if he’s sold, hopefully we are compensated well so we can use that money to reinvest.

I will say if we are to bring him back there definitely needs to be more of an explanation as to why. The whole he wasn’t charged and “club has conducted an internal investigation” won’t hold in my opinion. Specifics are needed not just for fans but I’d imagine the rest of the squad and club staff too.

 

[Maticmaker]

it's yet again falling back on the fact that he wasn't tried for the crime,

Yes, in a way that is it, he was not found guilty, (albeit by the skin of his teeth) there is no guilty verdict on record. In my opinion he should be allowed another chance.
If the club take him back that's fine with me, they would be giving him a second chance at this club, which in the circumstances would be correct.

Many years ago I use to teach/train (predominantly) young men aged 18-22 and was constantly amazed at the stupid and dangerous and sometimes cruel things they got up to and repeatedly warned them that such behaviour when they were 25 or older would see them in jail. Society use to allow such things because in the main it was considered such young men were 'sowing their wild oats'. It is no longer the case that such excuses are used in Society and I applauded that change.

However when no retribution is being claimed, or sort by the law, or by the individuals affected, indeed a second chance of a relationship has been granted, then a second chance should be also granted, and at this club.

 

[Red00012]

I think this thread needs to be closed.

No one is asking you to read and post on this .

 

[Maticmaker]

Quite agree with you on this.
I said that at the time and made myself highly unpopular (like I care).
What he did was stupid.
But who hasn't done something stupid, especially at his age.

So many people are 'holier than thou'.

Indeed they are, that's what I meant by 'virtue signalling,' but apparently in other peoples versions (of their 'truth') that's not what virtue signalling is!
Don't know how much Greenwood's development has been affected by all this and if his career in the top flight/at United is finished, then he will be able to reflect on his behaviour and how it has changed his life forever. That will be some 'cross to carry' for him.

 

[Marcus]

I’m okay with any decision the club makes. If we keep him, we have a potential solution to our attacking problems and if he’s sold, hopefully we are compensated well so we can use that money to reinvest.

I will say if we are to bring him back there definitely needs to be more of an explanation as to why. The whole he wasn’t charged and “club has conducted an internal investigation” won’t hold in my opinion. Specifics are needed not just for fans but I’d imagine the rest of the squad and club staff too.

Yup. Either scenario is fine. But keeping him is probably not feasible. I have a feeling that if he tells the truth, he is going to get himself or his girl in trouble.

 

[Son]

I can’t wait until we sell this guy. To just shut this thread down alone. When it comes to broken records it’s just 300+ pages of the same argument again and again.

We’ll get some cash for him hopefully and have done with it.

 

[Lentwood]

The previous management bungled this quite badly.

Why did they not just say that they'd conduct an internal investigation, collaborate with the police investigation and await the ruling of the court?

Soon as you start to get into the weeds of morality and ethics you're on a hiding to nothing. We have a justice system for a reason.

 

[Jaffa Cakes II]

Soon as you start to get into the weeds of morality and ethics you're on a hiding to nothing. We have a justice system for a reason.

Great point, Lentwood.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Indeed they are, that's what I meant by 'virtue signalling,' but apparently in other peoples versions (of their 'truth') that's not what virtue signalling is!

What is virtue signalling based on your truth, and how is it happening in this thread?

 

[Lash]

Indeed they are, that's what I meant by 'virtue signalling,' but apparently in other peoples versions (of their 'truth') that's not what virtue signalling is!
Don't know how much Greenwood's development has been affected by all this and if his career in the top flight/at United is finished, then he will be able to reflect on his behaviour and how it has changed his life forever. That will be some 'cross to carry' for him.

Yeah, he's the real victim in all of this.

I don't really understand why people are saying "virtue signalling" when it comes to something like domestic violence or sexual assault? It seems to be this weird catch all phrase, like woke, that just means you don't have to explain what you mean. Are you implying my motives for not wanting him back here are down to me wanting people on red cafe to believe I'm of good moral standing?

 

[Buster15]

Yes, in a way that is it, he was not found guilty, (albeit by the skin of his teeth) there is no guilty verdict on record. In my opinion he should be allowed another chance.
If the club take him back that's fine with me, they would be giving him a second chance at this club, which in the circumstances would be correct.

Many years ago I use to teach/train (predominantly) young men aged 18-22 and was constantly amazed at the stupid and dangerous and sometimes cruel things they got up to and repeatedly warned them that such behaviour when they were 25 or older would see them in jail. Society use to allow such things because in the main it was considered such young men were 'sowing their wild oats'. It is no longer the case that such excuses are used in Society and I applauded that change.

However when no retribution is being claimed, or sort by the law, or by the individuals affected, indeed a second chance of a relationship has been granted, then a second chance should be also granted, and at this club.

As an engineer, I have always tried to understand Cause and Effect.
It is a fact that the brain development of a young man is not fully reached until the mid 20's. In particular the frontal lobe or cortex.
And this part of the human brain is responsible for, amongst other things, reasoning and judgement.
In addition, the hormones responsible for a young man sex drive also peak at about that time.

That was why I said what I did in a previous post.

And for that reason, I was and still am prepared to give MG a 2nd chance.
If others disagree, I don't have a problem with that.
We are all entitled to our own opinion.

 

[SilentWitness]

As an engineer, I have always tried to understand Cause and Effect.
It is a fact that the brain development of a young man is not fully reached until the mid 20's. In particular the frontal lobe or cortex.
And this part of the human brain is responsible for, amongst other things, reasoning and judgement.
In addition, the hormones responsible for a young man sex drive also peak at about that time.

That was why I said what I did in a previous post.

And for that reason, I was and still am prepared to give MG a 2nd chance.
If others disagree, I don't have a problem with that.
We are all entitled to our own opinion.

Your excuses for his behaviour are quite frankly disgusting and I think you should perhaps time out from the thread because equating sexual drive to his alleged actions is just nonsense. He was an adult and capable of understanding right or wrong. Using sexual drive as an excuse for assault is just complete nonsense.

 

[cafecillos]

As an engineer, I have always tried to understand Cause and Effect.
It is a fact that the brain development of a young man is not fully reached until the mid 20's. In particular the frontal lobe or cortex.
And this part of the human brain is responsible for, amongst other things, reasoning and judgement.
In addition, the hormones responsible for a young man sex drive also peak at about that time.

That was why I said what I did in a previous post.

And for that reason, I was and still am prepared to give MG a 2nd chance.
If others disagree, I don't have a problem with that.
We are all entitled to our own opinion.

How is earning millions playing football in the second or third best league in the world not a second chance?

 

[Raoul]

As an engineer, I have always tried to understand Cause and Effect.
It is a fact that the brain development of a young man is not fully reached until the mid 20's. In particular the frontal lobe or cortex.
And this part of the human brain is responsible for, amongst other things, reasoning and judgement.
In addition, the hormones responsible for a young man sex drive also peak at about that time.

That was why I said what I did in a previous post.

And for that reason, I was and still am prepared to give MG a 2nd chance.
If others disagree, I don't have a problem with that.
We are all entitled to our own opinion.

Hormones and peak sex drive have nothing to do with his behavior. He did what he did and will have to face the consequences for it. If that means he can't play for the club he grew up in, then that's a small price for him to pay given the alternatives. If he resumes his teenage football form, he can can always resuscitate his career at other big clubs if United sell him.

 

[Lash]

As an engineer, I have always tried to understand Cause and Effect.
It is a fact that the brain development of a young man is not fully reached until the mid 20's. In particular the frontal lobe or cortex.
And this part of the human brain is responsible for, amongst other things, reasoning and judgement.
In addition, the hormones responsible for a young man sex drive also peak at about that time.

That was why I said what I did in a previous post.

And for that reason, I was and still am prepared to give MG a 2nd chance.
If others disagree, I don't have a problem with that.
We are all entitled to our own opinion.

Sorry, but do you have any idea how developed his frontal lobe or cortex is? What an absolutely wild thing to say after saying you try to understand cause and effect. You just purely speculated the "cause" off some psuedo-science you pulled out your arse. I've had reasonable discussions with you in the past, but this is genuinely bat shit.

 

[sancho1983]

I didn't say I didn't like it, I'm just saying it doesn't prove innocence, weirdly we're using the same argument as you're saying it doesn't prove guilt and you're right. But using the line "he wasn't convicted" isn't a good argument to say it's all fine he just needs to apologise and everything will be ok again.

You say he didn't produce evidence and that the case collapsed due to the withdrawal of key witness testimony. The CPS statement at the time actually said it was indeed due to the withdrawal of witness testimony AND new evidence which had came to light.

No one in the public has a clue what the new evidence was and I haven't a clue if he is guilty or not and neither does anyone in the public. The optics from what is in the public domain are shocking though

 

[Pickle85]

Sorry, but do you have any idea how developed his frontal lobe or cortex is? What an absolutely wild thing to say after saying you try to understand cause and effect. You just purely speculated the "cause" off some psuedo-science you pulled out your arse. I've had reasonable discussions with you in the past, but this is genuinely bat shit.

It's another in a long line of bizarre excuses this poster makes for wanting Greenwood back. And then retreats behind "I'm not above giving people a second chance but respect everyone's up opinion."

 

[moses]

Boys will be boys.

 

[Duafc]

The absolute nonsense people say here.

 

[Lash]

It's another in a long line of bizarre excuses this poster makes for wanting Greenwood back. And then retreats behind "I'm not above giving people a second chance but respect everyone's up opinion."

The perfect way to say something crazy and stop the debate after it.

 

[Pickle85]

The perfect way to say something crazy and stop the debate after it.

Precisely

 

[Withnail]

Quite agree with you on this.
I said that at the time and made myself highly unpopular (like I care).
What he did was stupid.
But who hasn't done something stupid, especially at his age.

So many people are 'holier than thou'.

I never threatened to rape anyone, did you?

 

[Buster15]

Your excuses for his behaviour are quite frankly disgusting and I think you should perhaps time out from the thread because equating sexual drive to his alleged actions is just nonsense. He was an adult and capable of understanding right or wrong. Using sexual drive as an excuse for assault is just complete nonsense.

I have sought to understand what could be reasons behind certain actions.
And the fact that you find that disgusting says everything.
It sounds to me like you need to keep your emotions in check dear chap and maybe it should be you who should take some time out.m before you blow a fuse.

 

[RacingClub]

I never threatened to rape anyone, did you?

Honestly I think a hell of a lot of people in this thread are "self snitching" and have done (or been a party to) some horrendous things that they kind of try and explain away as "Boys will be boys" etc and when a case like this pops up they feel compelled to defend the indefensible because deep down they feel like it's their previous actions that are being judged.

 

[HTG]

Honestly I think a hell of a lot of people in this thread are "self snitching" and have done (or been a party to) some horrendous things that they kind of try and explain away as "Boys will be boys" etc and when a case like this pops up they feel compelled to defend the indefensible because deep down they feel like it's their previous actions that are being judged.

Absolutely. By absolving others, they are merely trying to absolve themselves from past, present or even future wrongdoings. Same with the second chance bullshit. The only person they want a second chance for, is themselves.
At least many of them.