Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic

[MackRobinson]

I’m not trying to get you to not stand on what you said? You gave account of stuff you’ve experienced - and I said, without being dismissive of your experiences, that my experiences differ from yours - with an account of stuff I’ve witnessed.

I mean, you seemingly think that hailing from a community with a migrant population qualifies one to make blanket statements for South America, Africa and Asia. I disagree, I find that stupid, but in good faith and in an effort to be cordial I simply said I find that to be dangerous rhetoric, which it is - and from that we can also ascertain that the floor of our barometers on credibility are wildly different. It’s a forum, you’ll disagree with people.

No, it simply qualifies me to give an opinion based on first-hand knowledge. The original question was whether it was a hot take, and it's not. I'm completely fine with us not agreeing, but I will push back on someone calling that opinion "stupid" or "dangerous" with a very little substance and a lot of hand-waving. Your discomfort belongs to you and you alone and, respectfully, your take tells me either you don't belong to these groups or don't talk to them much. As far as credibility, you're just a random person on the internet saying things just as I am, so our standards of credibility can't be determined, and if you think so that's peak delusion.

“Negative reactions towards the accused are nowhere near what they would be in western culture” - cool. Mason Greenwood broke shirt sales records at Getafe and had a stadium singing his name. Getafe has made countless references to the popular phenomenon he’s proving to be - labelling it “Mason Mania”. It is well

Yes, an isolated incident. Do you have a similar incident in Africa or Asia to compare it to or are you just spitballing?

 

[Kinsella]

Seriously? You're actually arguing that people based in Asia, Africa, the US care less about allegations of rape and domestic assault that people based in Europe? That's a hell of a hot take, I'll give you that.

Leaving aside the specific issue in question…in a general sense it shouldn’t be surprising that different cultures have different value systems. That’s partly why they’re different after all.

I would imagine that a vast majority of those who follow United want him back. A significant majority of those who follow United are based in Asia, Africa, the US, where this issue isn't on the radar at all. They simply want to see United win and see him as a needed component of that process.

That’s probably true, at least in so far as the online world is representative of the real world.

Though the main thing to say here is that the domestic fans should always take precedence.

 

[TsuWave]

No, it simply qualifies me to give an opinion based on first-hand knowledge. The original question was whether it was a hot take, and it's not. I'm completely fine with us not agreeing, but I will push back on someone calling that opinion "stupid" or "dangerous" with a very little substance and a lot of hand-waving.

Your initial statement that I quoted and questioned was - "Asia and Africa are definitely less sensitive to these types of allegations". That's a blanket statement - which you justified because apparently you know and speak to a lot of immigrants. I asked nothing about "hot take", simply asked what did you use to measure "sensitivity".

Your discomfort belongs to you and you alone and, respectfully, your take tells me either you don't belong to these groups or don't talk to them much. As far as credibility, you're just a random person on the internet saying things just as I am, so our standards of credibility can't be determined, and if you think so that's peak delusion.

1. You're wrong.

2. I made no appeals to credibility. You did. I simply said that based on what you referred to to substantiate and corroborate your initial statements - what we consider credible differs wildly - it does - because evidently, to me, growing up in a multicultural area and interacting with immigrant folks is not the credential you seemingly think it is/use as.

Yes, an isolated incident. Do you have a similar incident in Africa or Asia to compare it to or are you just spitballing?

Isolated incident? The onus isn't on me to prove anything. You made the assertions. I simply dissected the Greenwood situation as it currently is - Mason Mania is happening at Getafe, Spain - to find the negative reactions towards him that supposedly set western culture apart from say South America, Asia and Africa.

 

[adexkola]

Leaving aside the specific issue in question…in a general sense it shouldn’t be surprising that different cultures have different value systems. That’s partly why they’re different after all.


That’s probably true, at least in so far as the online world is representative of the real world.

Though the main thing to say here is that the domestic fans should always take precedence.

Domestic fans as in matchgoing fans, or people within a 50 km radius of Old Trafford, or fans with a UK passport?

 

[Yorke to Cole]

I have not quoted any of the above recent discussion as I just want to make general point. I think there are different attitudes as collective societies towards various issues. Not just possible domestic violence. It can apply to alcohol/ drup consumption, homersexuality, abortion etc...

It does not mean that an individual or group of individuals within that culture, nation or collective society do not have strong views on those particular issues that may be against their consensus.

But in the main it is a given.

 

[MackRobinson]

Your initial statement that I quoted and questioned was - "Asia and Africa are definitely less sensitive to these types of allegations". That's a blanket statement - which you justified because apparently you know and speak to a lot of immigrants. I asked nothing about "hot take", simply asked what did you use to measure "sensitivity".

I disagreed that a previously stated opinion that was a hot take. I didn't just make a statement out of nowhere. And if the wording wasn't clear that it was an opinion, my pointing out my "evidence" was purely anecdotal is a dead giveaway.

Not sure about the US but Asia and Africa are definitely less sensitive to these types of allegations. It's not a hot take at all.

Just for you, from now on I'll structure my posts as "In my opinion, generally speaking, blah blah blah" and omit "definitely" so there is no misunderstanding.

1. You're wrong.

Perhaps but that's just my impression.

2. I made no appeals to credibility. You did. I simply said that based on what you referred to to substantiate and corroborate your initial statements - what we consider credible differs wildly - it does - because evidently, to me, growing up in a multicultural area and interacting with immigrant folks is not the credential you seemingly think it is/use as.
.

You directly questioned my "barometers on credibility" simply because I said believe the second had stories I've been told. There was no appeal to credibility, b/c it wasn't the basis of an argument. A throwaway adjective led you down this random tangent. I'm not sure how else you expect me to respond. Also, growing up in a multicultural area simply explains the accessibility to the anecdotal evidence that formed my opinion. I think your discomfort about my opinion is causing you to see things that aren't there.

Isolated incident? The onus isn't on me to prove anything. You made the assertions. I simply dissected the Greenwood situation as it currently is - Mason Mania is happening at Getafe, Spain - to find the negative reactions towards him that supposedly set western culture apart from say South America, Asia and Africa.

I'm not asking you to prove anything. Simply pointing out that an isolated incident does not make that statement false.

 

[Kinsella]

Domestic fans as in matchgoing fans, or people within a 50 km radius of Old Trafford, or fans with a UK passport?

‘Domestic fans’ would include all of the above.

 

[RVN1991]

That wasn't the full audio and you don't know the context of why they were chanting that. Would be unfair to judge them based on that alone.

Made me chuckle, solid point.

 

[Gasolin]

No, it simply qualifies me to give an opinion based on first-hand knowledge. The original question was whether it was a hot take, and it's not. I'm completely fine with us not agreeing, but I will push back on someone calling that opinion "stupid" or "dangerous" with a very little substance and a lot of hand-waving. Your discomfort belongs to you and you alone and, respectfully, your take tells me either you don't belong to these groups or don't talk to them much. As far as credibility, you're just a random person on the internet saying things just as I am, so our standards of credibility can't be determined, and if you think so that's peak delusion.


Yes, an isolated incident. Do you have a similar incident in Africa or Asia to compare it to or are you just spitballing?

Just look up how Korea treats its superstars accused of rape. The public outrage is real over there, and they are even more active in cancelling them.

 

[backpass]

But isnt korea not also a country where shame is an important concept? Getting caught is the real problem for the elites there, I think the crime itself is much more „tolerated“ as long not publicly known.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Not sure why we're putting any stock in the reaction from anonymous, no doubt overwhelmingly male fans online regardless of where they come from tbh.

So we should only put stock in non-anonymous female in-person fans?

 

[fallengt]

Dang, didn't check it for few days and I've lost track what is this thread about now.

 

[adexkola]

So we should only put stock in non-anonymous female in-person fans?

The ones with a UK passport

 

[tenpoless]

I would imagine that a vast majority of those who follow United want him back. A significant majority of those who follow United are based in Asia, Africa, the US, where this issue isn't on the radar at all. They simply want to see United win and see him as a needed component of that process.

Can't speak about the other but people in the east are more conservative when it comes into sex and relationships than the west. In most asian countries, even consensual sex between two adults outside of marriage is still frowned upon and even things like divorce are still seen as bad, the social stigma is still strong. So if anything they take more offense when it comes into cases like these, assuming they are actually knowledgeable about ManUnited. Also this issue was definitely on the radar when every big sports websites were putting it in front of their main pages.

So what you said here is not factual at all. If some fans want him back, they want him back because he was a very promising talent. End of story. No need to bring 'fans that are based in ....' into this. That's your own justification.

 

[Ubik]

So we should only put stock in non-anonymous female in-person fans?

No, just not some tenuous notion of "online sentiment".

 

[Gasolin]

But isnt korea not also a country where shame is an important concept? Getting caught is the real problem for the elites there, I think the crime itself is much more „tolerated“ as long not publicly known.

If you think like that, it's the same everywhere: in France, in the US, getting caught is the issue but if you're not caught, there is no shaming at all. I fail to see a country where it works differently.

 

[gaffs]

If you look at the broader online sentiment (beyond the loud but narrow ecosystem of British podcasters and activists) there is little support to not have him return. The friendly reception he's received in Spain only reinforces this.

Kind of crazy that Spain are going through this #metoo moment with Luis Rubiales, yet one of their clubs decide to sign Greenwood.

 

[Raoul]

Kind of crazy that Spain are going through this #metoo moment with Luis Rubiales, yet one of their clubs decide to sign Greenwood.

True. I think it speaks to the possibility of where domestic audiences care more about things their own citizens do than they do about the affairs of foreigners in other countries. This may also explain the perception of why the indiscretions of foreign players in England aren't pursued as fervently as those of English players.

 

[gaffs]

True. I think it speaks to the possibility of where domestic audiences care more about things their own citizens do than they do about the affairs of foreigners in other countries. This may also explain the perception of why the indiscretions of of foreign players in England aren't pursued as fervently as those of English players in England.

I think its probably also because the original Greenwood news wouldnt have made a splash in the Spanish news. Yet, it was front and back page in the UK for days.

 

[Anustart89]

True. I think it speaks to the possibility of where domestic audiences care more about things their own citizens do than they do about the affairs of foreigners in other countries. This may also explain the perception of why the indiscretions of foreign players in England aren't pursued as fervently as those of English players.

I made the point that if [Irrelevant point] had done what he did while playing in England, then he wouldn't have had such an easy ride from English football crowds. I still stand by that despite someone arguing that the reason that he wasn't booed by crowds was that he had been punished by the law (with a €60k fine) and the matter was closed in legal terms.

 

[DJ Jeff]

Bring him back in January.

 

[duffer]

I made the point that if [Irrelevant point] had done what he did while playing in England, then he wouldn't have had such an easy ride from English football crowds. I

He got called a murderer at every away game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it but he got pelters every game for Chelsea.

 

[Anustart89]

He got called a murderer at every away game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it but he got pelters every game for Chelsea.

He wasn't booed half as much as Zouma was for kicking a cat. From what I could tell from my armchair obviously.

And there wasn't any sort of media campaign aimed at kicking him out from the game either like there's been with some others.

 

[Lebo]

I made the point that if [Irrelevant point] had done what he did while playing in England, then he wouldn't have had such an easy ride from English football crowds. I still stand by that despite someone arguing that the reason that he wasn't booed by crowds was that he had been punished by the law (with a €60k fine) and the matter was closed in legal terms.

But it’s wrong to generalise like that. You and those Russian soldiers share a continent. Do you share values? North and South Korea a basically the same area. Do they share values?

 

[duffer]

And there wasn't any sort of media campaign aimed at kicking him out from the game either like there's been with some others.

I don't think there's been any others who did the same thing as Alonso (killed a passenger when drink driving). There's been a feckload of other drink drivers (who got lucky and didn't kill anyone) but nobody really gives a shit about them.

He was playing for a relatively small club at the time it happened, it got some media coverage and it wasn't until years later that he played for Chelsea so it wasn't really "news" at that point.

As for getting less boos than Zouma, how many of Marcos Alonsos matches did you watch in 2011, 2012, 2013, etc? See how many boos Zouma gets in 5 years.

 

[Raoul]

A Kenyan perspective

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[Fridge chutney]

A Kenyan perspective

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What a load of horseshit

 

[Mainoldo]

A Kenyan perspective

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He’s right with his view of it.

He’s also very wrong if the evidence suggests Greenwood is guilty. But only a few people will really know.

 

[duffer]

He’s right with his view of it.

"A mere allegation of sex" - The charge was " attempted rape, engaging in controlling and coercive behaviour, and assault occasioning actual bodily harm".

"She is Greenwood's wife" - No she isn't.

In summary, he either doesn't really know what he's talking about or he's flat out lying.

 

[Em765]

Whats up with those African politicians using Man Utd players in their speeches in the parliament.
I get his point and whats so annoying about the society in the anglo western world today but its what it is and its here to stay.
He calls it busyboy, for some its accountability. I agree more so with him but we been through this through 100s of pages in this thread.
No need to go over it again. We all know the views of the other side.
Greenwood is in Spain, its a different country, culture so yeah works out for him, works out for everyone.

 

[Mainoldo]

"A mere allegation of sex" - The charge was " attempted rape, engaging in controlling and coercive behaviour, and assault occasioning actual bodily harm".

"She is Greenwood's wife" - No she isn't.

In summary, he either doesn't really know what he's talking about or he's flat out lying.

He probably doesn’t. I’m sure he asked the guy in the back to fact check the marriage details. The sex part was probably how he wanted it to come across without using the R word. I’m sure he’s aware it was a R charge.

 

[duffer]

He probably doesn’t. I’m sure he asked the guy in the back to fact check the marriage details. The sex part was probably how he wanted it to come across without using the R word. I’m sure he’s aware it was a R charge.

Either way he's dead wrong. He's either ignorant or a liar.

 

[Bastian]

A Kenyan perspective

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I take most offense to it being labelled a Kenyan perspective. You can call it a perspective though.

 

[Zed 101]

A Kenyan perspective

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I hate the media, it creates its own narrative and is not interested in the truth, I hate that people can be tried by social media, and the media in general.... but WOW this guy WTF, I guess he is very secure in his position

Disclaimer: not intended as me supporting Greenwood or the comments this guy made

 

[Hackman2210]

Real sociedad v Getafe on Sunday 1pm.
Might be worth a look. Greenwood may get a start although bench more likely.

 

[Rightnr]

A Kenyan perspective

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Based on my observations, somehow this tracks on many, many levels.

 

[Rood]

A Kenyan perspective

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Interested to know what this speech was actually about, Im assuming he hasn't just stood up in Kenyan parliament to talk about Man United

I remember the Harry Maguire one, think was Ghana

 

[Raoul]

Interested to know what this speech was actually about, Im assuming he hasn't just stood up in Kenyan parliament to talk about Man United

I remember the Harry Maguire one, think was Ghana

Looking at some of his other tweets he’s apparently a United fan who is annoyed that Greenwood isn’t available. He’s also apparently a member of the Kenyan Senate.

 

[JB7]

Interested to know what this speech was actually about, Im assuming he hasn't just stood up in Kenyan parliament to talk about Man United

Be so much more interesting watching PMQs if they did just chuck a random bit of football trivia in from time to time though wouldn't it.

 

[Rightnr]

Interested to know what this speech was actually about, Im assuming he hasn't just stood up in Kenyan parliament to talk about Man United

I remember the Harry Maguire one, think was Ghana

If any of the tweets underneath are to be believed, it's about a female member of Senate accusing someone of sexual misconduct and him trying to use the Greenwood example to somehow demonstrate how someone's reputation is unfairly damaged.

If that's the situation, to say the whole comparison is a stretch would be putting it kindly.