Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic

[MancunianAngels]

This thread has been going in circles for many months now with more or less the same arguments but I'll go once again.


Well, we (the public) don't know for sure what is the crime , and neither do we know whether he has acknowledged it privately, unless you think he owes us a public acknowledgement before you offer him the chance to redeem himself.
Also, once you accept the notion of redemption, you don't get to put a line on how much is okay and how much is too much.


This is pure conjecture though, it's like saying signing four or five new players from different countries around the world in the summer would cause some level of disruption to the squad.


For the record, I don't want Rashford binned, in one thread I actually nominated him as one of two players for whom we should reject offers >100M. (In my defence, that was after the 22/23 season )

We, the public, only have the well documented evidence on social media. If (a big if) there's other evidence out there, then we haven't seen it. People can examine that and believe that whilst yes: he deserves to live a life now, that doesn't have to be at Old Trafford. They are naturally concerned that he will be representating them as United fans.

Also, worth pointing out that despite this other supposed evidence, the club still took several months to reach any conclusion. There was something that stopped the club saying, when the charges were dropped, that he was back in the squad. Clearly they had reservations (whether this was based mainly on bad PR is another question).

A point I made ages ago, probably on this thread, was that the club had been concerned about his behaviour and attitude long before this all came out. In fact, many of the posters on here were talking about worrying signs with him.

Re: disruption. That's not conjecture though. It's pretty much fact now. It would distract everyone with the club when we need to look towards the future. Bringing in almost any other player wouldn't cause this level of debate. Whether people like it or now now, it's a massive distraction.

Re: Rashford comparison. Fair enough but many on here seemingly want Rashford sold and Greenwood brought back.

 

[sepulturite]

Is vilification allowed in this thread? This is not respectful, I think? Sometimes I wonder whether some come on here to have discussion threads or echo chambers? I think all this name-calling is uncalled for and it's the precise reason why I keep away from some threads. Why can't people accept that everyone doesn't think alike and you can form different opinions on a subject without being a bad person? I find the intolerance to alternative views quite disagreeable. I understand and accept why most would not want to have MG back without attributing negative and ulterior motives to it (and I could as well, if I wanted to) so why can't others debate trusting the good faith of opposing views?

Attack the post, not the poster.

If you've read through this thread as much as I have you would see where I'm coming from when it comes to posters, especially new members, who only ever seem to post in here, and all seems to have the same opinion, just worded in different ways. Some are very vague, others come straight out with it, either ways they've nearly all been banned and rightly so.

Anyone that comes in here and, for some reason that I just find unfathomable, defends and champions constantly for greenwood to come back will always fall in to those categories. Because why else would you bother standing up for a guy that most on this board don't even know/have never met/never had any dealings with, after hearing that audio and seeing those images?

And if the mods have an issue with my posts I'm sure they'll let me know. But thanks for your input.

 

[golden_blunder]

First, that's fair enough, although I don't think clubs usually ask opinions from everyone before signing new players. Maybe the context here is different but, in my (humble and worthless in reality) opinion, the usual chain of decision-making for all players should be applied in this case.
Secondly, I expect them to do that for good PR but that doesn't necessarily mean a lot privately as they failed to do the same for Antony as I would have expected them to do for the sake of coherence.
Thirdly, United deals with more circus than MG would bring, that I'm quite sure. The relative silence over him in Spain and even talks of bigger clubs being interested makes me think we overestimate this effect of bringing him back, maybe I'm wrong.
Lastly, like I said, he's not a senior player so can't be seen as a role model fot the younger ones. Also, his career has gone through so much at such a young age that I don't think any of them can see him as getting away with anything. CR seems to have gotten away with similar stuff, yet I don't think it necessarily affects younger players around him in his different clubs.

And yes, redemption can be anywhere, that I agree, only I think it can also be here, and I wouldn't mind it.

Considering the context, any HR officers worth their salt would be checking how their other staff will be affected. What if some of the female staff don’t want to be in the same building as him, they don’t feel safe?

The PR around this club is always bigger than anywhere else. Think back to the stick Beckham was getting everywhere simply because he was sent off. Multiply it.
now even if you don’t agree with it from the United angle, think of MG and his girlfriend. They are immature by all accounts. Lots of stories of their relationship troubles floating around the internet before this all kicked off. Are they strong enough to cope with all the attention? It will increase stress on their already turbulent relationship. They might want a quieter life.
Bellingham allegedly uttering a single word to him will be nothing to what will happen in England.
The context of the crime is not something that will be forgotten by those who have been through it, know people in those circumstances or simply feel strongly enough to insist on the highest standards being upheld.
Whatever his age, at the moment we have Hojlund willing to run through brick walls for United, and Mainoo and garnacho will run all day. All 3 seem like grounded, professional young men. We need to keep them on that path. They are now the examples for the youth teams.
greenwood on the other hand, there have been mentions of arrogance, laziness and unprofessional behaviour. Thats before we add the other stuff.

hes created the issue himself. He’s getting a chance to make something of his life elsewhere. The right thing is to move on.

 

[Reapersoul20]

"Overestimation" my deluded left testicle. It would be hellish to bring him back for moral and morale reasons.

 

[Fridge chutney]

There's definitely a level of overestimation going on.

I'm sure the first few sets of games would be brutal. Then people move on to the next issue and that's that.

He'll get the occasional isolated chant aimed at him but he'll just have to deal with it

If anything i'd say you are underestimating the broader reaction of bringing him back. When this first kicked off it made front page headlines, he was stalked by the media, he was a topic on radio, etc.

That it would just die down after a few games, when we've seen Getafe repeatedly complain about other teams and players this season (most recently Bellingham calling him a rapist), seems unlikely.

 

[Fridge chutney]

so why can't others debate trusting the good faith of opposing views?

Because often the views don't appear to be done in good faith, or at best come from a place of ignorance.

 

[macheda14]

Is vilification allowed in this thread? This is not respectful, I think? Sometimes I wonder whether some come on here to have discussion threads or echo chambers? I think all this name-calling is uncalled for and it's the precise reason why I keep away from some threads. Why can't people accept that everyone doesn't think alike and you can form different opinions on a subject without being a bad person? I find the intolerance to alternative views quite disagreeable. I understand and accept why most would not want to have MG back without attributing negative and ulterior motives to it (and I could as well, if I wanted to) so why can't others debate trusting the good faith of opposing views?

Attack the post, not the poster.

Because for the people who are anti greenwood coming back they believe he did one of the most heinous things a man can do to a woman and shouldn’t be afforded a ‘second chance’ when the second chance is that he is already playing football and earning tens of thousands a week. For them (me included) there is no good faith argument, because it is so horrific.

As the poster you’re responding to said. There are few possibilities one would be ok with Greenwood back. 1, they don’t believe he did it. 2, they don’t care about players’ life outside football (and thereby don’t understand the importance of role models). 3, they think he deserves a second chance which for some reason only means playing for United, not that he’s already being afforded one. 4, they don’t think what he did was that bad.

If you can think of any ‘good faith’ arguments let us know.

 

[Reapersoul20]

If anything i'd say you are underestimating the broader reaction of bringing him back. When this first kicked off it made front page headlines, he was stalked by the media, he was a topic on radio, etc.

That it would just die down after a few games, when we've seen Getafe repeatedly complain about other teams and players this season (most recently Bellingham calling him a rapist), seems unlikely.

It's not just unlikely, its complete and total delusion IMO

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

Is he actually coming back or are people just arguing at the possibility of that happening?

 

[adexkola]

If anything i'd say you are underestimating the broader reaction of bringing him back. When this first kicked off it made front page headlines, he was stalked by the media, he was a topic on radio, etc.

That it would just die down after a few games, when we've seen Getafe repeatedly complain about other teams and players this season (most recently Bellingham calling him a rapist), seems unlikely.

Do you think this reaction is limited to United, or would it be the case in any other club in England, or any big club outside?

 

[sepulturite]

Because for the people who are anti greenwood coming back they believe he did one of the most heinous things a man can do to a woman and shouldn’t be afforded a ‘second chance’ when the second chance is that he is already playing football and earning tens of thousands a week. For them (me included) there is no good faith argument, because it is so horrific.

As the poster you’re responding to said. There are few possibilities one would be ok with Greenwood back. 1, they don’t believe he did it. 2, they don’t care about players’ life outside football (and thereby don’t understand the importance of role models). 3, they think he deserves a second chance which for some reason only means playing for United, not that he’s already being afforded one. 4, they don’t think what he did was that bad.

If you can think of any ‘good faith’ arguments let us know.

Yep exactly this, spot on mate.

 

[cafecillos]

The thing with the "good faith" is that it's very difficult to presume it when an argument that was already iffy the first time is made for the 50th time. Yes, there's the possibility that the poster in question simply hasn't read the thread, but how is that any better when it comes to having a measured and thorough discussion about such a serious societal problem? I'm sorry but when, after over 13000 posts, a poster comes into the thread with the argument that she's back with him I find it incredibly hard to believe that argument is being made in good faith.

 

[Ole'sattheWheel]

Do you think this reaction is limited to United, or would it be the case in any other club in England, or any big club outside?

Just my opinion but I think if he played for City or Liverpool the scale of the reaction would be the same.

I'm imagining even if he was an Arsenal or Chelsea player this would be happening

 

[Fridge chutney]

Do you think this reaction is limited to United, or would it be the case in any other club in England, or any big club outside?

Hard to say. I think this reaction is probably worst at United or Liverpool, because even when there is no controversy we generate a lot of headlines at attention. The bigger and more high profile a club, the stronger the reaction. That said, it would probably be bad anywhere in the UK, but i don't know.

 

[Jippy]

Is he actually coming back or are people just arguing at the possibility of that happening?

There hasn't been any concrete new information in months as far as I know, just periodic media speculation of unknown veracity.

 

[van Nistelrooy]

Is he actually coming back or are people just arguing at the possibility of that happening?

The possibility.

There is no way Sir Jim will start his reign off this summer by bringing Greenwood back. He would have observed the attempts to bring him back into the fold last season by Arnold and quickly realised that it just isn't possible. Rightly so.

 

[Berbaclass]

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[CallyRed]

The Sheikh would have fired Mason into the sun

 

[dubplate warrior]

I totally get that some people hate him and want him nowhere near the club. But anyone denying his footballing ability is deluded

Agreed.

 

[Crimson King]

He's never playing for this club again. He's probably never playing in this country again.

Best take the £30m and insert a sell on so you potentially make a bit more in the future.

Pour your electrons affection into Højlund and Garnacho instead.

 

[KM]

There's practically no chance of Sir Jim bringing him back. He'll be probably sold to either Atletico or Barcelona.

He is never coming back to PL.

Well he just said this so this makes it less promising.

You are dealing with young people who have not always been brought up I then best circumstances, who have a lot of money and they don’t always have the guidance they should have.

'What we need to do when have issues like that is understand real affects not the hype then we need to make a fair decision in the light of the club’s values. That’s what we need to do and that’s how we will deal with it.’

 

[Yagami]

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I 100% want him back so that's promising. I was resigned to the fact that he was done here. I still think he'll end up leaving, though.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Very sensible from Sir Jim imo, he wont let social media influence his decision. He'll obviously have access to the internal investigation as well.

 

[Fanatic 00237]

It's unbelievable to me how so many people actually believe that their view is the one and only "good and acceptable" view and anything contrary is vile.

Because for the people who are anti greenwood coming back they believe he did one of the most heinous things a man can do to a woman and shouldn’t be afforded a ‘second chance’ when the second chance is that he is already playing football and earning tens of thousands a week. For them (me included) there is no good faith argument, because it is so horrific.

Here, I absolutely beg to differ. Except maybe for serial killers and other mentally deranged criminals who are impossible to turn around, I don't think there is any human being who is beyond redemption. Even murderers are sometimes given a second chance by society. Once again, when you decide that someone deserves a second chance, it's unfair to then set limits to what they are allowed to do, unless the fear is them repeating the former crime (like letting a paedophile work in a school).

When this broke out, there were many who wished he never gets to play football again, and I'm sure many now wishing he never plays for United again would have been fine with that. Unfortunately, playing football is probably the only thing he knows how to do proficiently to earn a living and care for his family. I understand that the biggest obstacle for many people will be what he earns, but he earns that for plying his trade at his level of talent and contributing to bigger institutions making more money. I guess that's why some are desperate to prove that he's not that talented after all.

As the poster you’re responding to said. There are few possibilities one would be ok with Greenwood back. 1, they don’t believe he did it. 2, they don’t care about players’ life outside football (and thereby don’t understand the importance of role models). 3, they think he deserves a second chance which for some reason only means playing for United, not that he’s already being afforded one. 4, they don’t think what he did was that bad.

If you can think of any ‘good faith’ arguments let us know.

I posted this earlier:

Before anyone accuses me of being a rape/domestic violence apologist, let me make it clear that I absolutely don't approve any of his suspected actions, I would never even dream of defending anyone who does that, however I don't expect a footballer to be a moral compass, and I think we don't really know fully what happened beyond the public trial. Also, and most importantly, I am big on forgiveness and redemption, and I believe that no matter what crime someone has committed, they deserve forgiveness and a chance at redemption at some point. In this light, I have generally kept the same feelings I had towards him before all the drama broke out, regardless of his football ability or lack thereof, and I sincerely wish he can truly turn his life around from all this and have a great football career (at United or elsewhere) and have a normal family life with its ups and downs and keep away from making negative news for off-field stuff.

So, addressing your points:

1. Like I said, I don't think we really know fully (and we probably won't ever know) exactly what happened with that couple of immature kids.

2. I absolutely do not care as I don't think sportsmen and artists (and entertainment celebrities in general) should ever be considered as role models. They should only be admired for what they do with their talent under the limelight. I have no interest whatsoever in what they do with their private lives and I think it's all for the better as they tend to be as humanly imperfect as the rest of us mortals.

3. I think he deserves a second chance at United or anywhere else, I just don't exclude United from the possibilities if he's good enough and the club wants him. I don't see why he can have that chance elsewhere but not at United, we aren't that exceptionally special although @golden_blunder made very good points why for his own good he might be better off elsewhere.

4. See quote above.

So which of these makes me a bad person?

 

[van Nistelrooy]

Oh, Jim. What have you just said?

It would have been better to say nothing.

I can't support anyone, even United, if they allow Greenwood to represent the club again.

 

[marktan]

Well he just said this so this makes it less promising.

See I respect that quote, he's clearly an intelligent guy. I know he has a rep as a tough businessman and takes tough decisions.

A little bit of nuance sometimes helps instead of the usual suspects frothing at the mouth in this thread.

 

[golden_blunder]

Let’s just wait see; he didn’t commit either way with that statement

 

[Gavinb33]

There's definitely a level of overestimation going on.

I'm sure the first few sets of games would be brutal. Then people move on to the next issue and that's that.

He'll get the occasional isolated chant aimed at him but he'll just have to deal with it

There are chants about him at most games now, it's happened at most games I've been to over the past year or so from all fans not just rivals

 

[hobbers]

Aha, I knew being pro-Qatar-bid anti-MG-return would pay off eventually

 

[Utd heap]

Old Tory nobhead in having questionable views shocker.

 

[Andycoleno9]

"Overestimation" my deluded left testicle. It would be hellish to bring him back for moral and morale reasons.

Nah, we do overestimate it. First few weeks there would be "booos" and chants during the games, some bad PR in English media and a lot of stories about it. After that only some chants from oppo fans and some article then and there. But that first month would be hell for the club though.
By all means i don't want to compare those situations because this is way serious and bigger but look at some other situations; who talks about Antony's case anymore? Zouma's case? Suarez case was maybe biggest racist scandal in history of PL but after month or two it was basically forgotten.
While story is hot it has 10 articles, then 5 articles and then it dies.
How our players would react on his return......well, that is other story.

Best case scenario is that we sell him to Barca for huge fee. 60-70 mil would be great.

 

[hobbers]

Everyone seemed to get bored of booing Partey and Zouma far too quickly in my book. Same would happen with Greenwood.

 

[holdsteady]

He's not said anything there. Just said we have to stick to our values as they come first and go from there

 

[flameinthesun]

Well he just said this so this makes it less promising.

A very sensible take, thankfully.

 

[Utd heap]

Everyone seemed to get bored of booing Partey and Zouma far too quickly in my book. Same would happen with Greenwood.

I'm not sure it's comparable to a bloke booting a cat. As deplorable as that is too ofcourse.

 

[strandty]

Maybe just doesn’t want to sound desperate to sell the kid, losing all negotiation when it comes to the summer. If there’s interest in him now and you say you’re definitely getting rid, they’ll want to give you bottom dollar.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Everyone seemed to get bored of booing Partey and Zouma far too quickly in my book. Same would happen with Greenwood.

That sick bastard got some sporadic boos first few games and that was it.

 

[Berbaclass]

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[hobbers]

I'm not sure it's comparable to a bloke booting a cat. As deplorable as that is too ofcourse.

In joe public's eyes I think a video of animal abuse like Zouma's would always stir up more direct anger than Greenwood's audio clip.

Didnt cat bin lady have to go into hiding?

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I'm not sure it's comparable to a bloke booting a cat. As deplorable as that is too ofcourse.

First season would be rough. But if he came back and was successful I think it would fade in a few years if I had to guess. People have goldfish memories about many things for better or worse.