McTominay: so rare for a youngster to come through an academy and straight into the PL as ready made

[OL29]

If McTominay had a Spanish, Italian, or Brazilian name, everyone would be singing his praises. The people who are not impressed with him just don't believe his name, nationality, or heritage, is sexy enough for United. This is sad but true!

I think he's did a great job and hope he continues to improve and impress.

Have you looked at the Fred and Addreas threads? This is clearly not true and a lazy excuse that I’ve seen used for the likes of McNair, Gibson etc.

 

[11101]

He's another Cleverley. He's undoubtedly a PL player but he's not going to stand out enough to make it here as a starter. He'll be welcome in the squad otherwise he'll go and be a regular somewhere else in the next few years.

 

[Alek M]

I think he has tallents but his nerves get ti him . NedsN to move more and seek the ball. But sometimes seems he doesn't want it or is in vad position. He can do the part in another year or two

 

[Red_Beans]

We have some real football experts on the CAF. Posters who should be in the dugout instead of Ole, Carrick and Phelan. Posters who know better than SAF, Mourinho, Ole and all the coaches and experts at Manchester United when it comes to picking talent.
There is always a risk with young players, there are no certainties when it comes to development or reaching potential but if the professionals who are paid by the biggest club in the world think that Scott McTominay is worth taking a risk on I am happy to trust their judgement over the super scouts we have posting on an internet forum

 

[ROFLUTION]

Did you actually watch Nicky Butt play football? If you did, then you wouldn’t be making this comparison. Butt was a starter. He was significantly better then McTominay at the age of 22, too. So was Fletcher. I don’t have any issues with McTominay. But he isn’t going to be a Darren Fletcher for us. He is, quite simply, not as talented.

Darren Fletcher had some absolutely terrible games for us before he showed his real talent. Couldnt even hit simple passes, which later became the core of his play. Was one of the players Keane called out too. In the youth ranks he was touted to be a good talent, but when he moved into the first team there was a good while before he he became good.

With McTominay he has just been stable and decent from the start. Great to see us getting some british core back into the team like we had under Fergie. We don't need McTominay to be a new Ronaldinho or Fletcher. His tasks are limited to doing a stable and simple job and the players in front of him is who has to be creative.

Also just nice to have some Club-men here. A real good amount of them at the club right now from the staff to superstars to new faces trying to make it here

 

[Coops73]

I remember how people used to bitch and moan about Fletcher at the same age and were then shocked that he matured into a fine midfielder when he was 24/25.

As if our coaches and academy staff are just throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks, rather than working closely with these young players on a daily basis recognising their potential and showing trust that they can fulfil it.

Totally agree, we all have opinions but it’s too early to right him off already, if the staff didn’t rate him he wouldn’t be playing.

You can't polish a turd.

Not saying McTominay is awful but he certainly lacks ability on the ball and isn't the best tackler. But could stay based on his attitude and professionalism.

but you can roll it in glitter.

 

[antohan]

He isn't, but OK. What's Sanchez got to do with it?

Sanchez fits right into what you put forward as not being content with mediocrity. Sign big names, proven players, superstars that can help us close the gap with Barca/Madrid, yadda yadda.

Problem is, most such transfers have been worse than trusting our own like McTominay or Lingard (whom I suspect you also find mediocre).

 

[dalriada]

Why do you say that, out of curiousity? Dier has gone off the boil a little lately, but has been a fantastic player, who was impressing for Spurs at his age and about to become a key player for England.

McTominay, just one month ago, was being pursued by Championship clubs and SPL clubs on loan. That is at the age of 22, having played 30 or 40 times in United’s first team, Not as a promising 18 year old. The likes of Fulham and Palace were after TFM at 18.

For those speaking of supporting youth, nobody is against young players. The whole forum has been clamouring for the likes of Greenwood, Gomes, Chong and go to get chances all year. We still rue that Morison didn’t amount to anything. Very few young players make it at United, or even get the opportunity that Scott has had to try. The bar is high, and only the best youngsters get a chance, the rest leave. McTominay is an anomaly in that he’s been an average player at youth level, and average at first team level here, yet has been given more chances than any kid here in the last 4 years. I’m just genuinely curious as to why. The way I see it is, if he earned a 5 year deal and all the games he’s had based on what he’s shown in the youth team so far, then pretty much every kid we have should feel entitled to the same. He’s no Garner, Greenwood or Laird. The likes of Tanner and Kenyon will feel they deserve the chance to hang around for 5 years in the hope they can become a ‘decent squad player’.

I’ve never seen a youth player get the games he’s gotten in my whole life supporting United in the hope that they could mature into a decent squad player. Some of them end up as that, but the ones that get a chance in the first team have all been with a view to them being amongst the very best players. Big clubs rarely buy or develop squad players at all. They collect top level players who challenge each other and work out a hierarchy themselves based on their performances. But the likes of Darmian, Rojo, Jones, Bailly, Fred - all our squad players, were bought with the intention of being first team players.

You have to factor in the upheaval in the first team and especially in the second team over the last 4-5 seasons. In the first team it's been the changes of manager, with all the consequent players-in, players-out, changes in playing styles.
In the second team, Van Gaal started to bring some promising players through. Most of those subsequently went on loan and then left, but the U23s, as it became, never recovered from all the departures.

Add in the loss of Brian McClair, Paul McGuiness, Warren Joyce, the club's opposition to the current U23 structure and Mourinho's lack of interest in youth players and we've ended up with a lost generation of second team players. The hope for the future has come from the U18s, and we can see them coming through.

I think Scott McT has also had to live with the label of being a Mourinho pet, a kind of alternative Fellaini because of his height, to be used when the latter wasn't available. Like Fellaini and Valencia, he could be trusted not to make waves or criticise the manager, explicitly or implicitly, all part of Mourinho's peculiar insecurity and need to create tension with senior players.

So Scott has been in some respects the fortunate beneficiary of circumstances. That's not to say he won't turn out to be a good player - Ole clearly sees something there, even if he's using him at present because of injuries. I wish him no ill - not convinced he'll be much better than he is now, but deserves his chance in what will hopefully be a more settled and positive team under Solskjaer.

 

[Kag]

Darren Fletcher had some absolutely terrible games for us before he showed his real talent. Couldnt even hit simple passes, which later became the core of his play. Was one of the players Keane called out too. In the youth ranks he was touted to be a good talent, but when he moved into the first team there was a good while before he he became good.

With McTominay he has just been stable and decent from the start. Great to see us getting some british core back into the team like we had under Fergie. We don't need McTominay to be a new Ronaldinho or Fletcher. His tasks are limited to doing a stable and simple job and the players in front of him is who has to be creative.

Also just nice to have some Club-men here. A real good amount of them at the club right now from the staff to superstars to new faces trying to make it here

Fletcher was still visibly more talented. I don’t disagree with much of what you say, however.

McTominay’s issue yesterday was that he was part of a midfield that couldn’t actually get the ball to the attackers. So, he does need to be creative. Creative in that he can begin to dictate the game from his position. It was such a problem that we had to drag Pogba back there to do it for him. It was a poor performance.

 

[antohan]

So we agree that his cheapness is a good thing?

Not about cheap, it's about scarce.

You could argue the homegrown rule has worked (England youth teams doing well). The main issue is still them hardly getting games (Foden, Hudson-Odoi, Sancho only getting them in Germany).

Stage is set for stricter rules before you even consider Brexit freeing up the FA to gradually reintroduce quotas.

British + HG + actual club product is a great asset to keep around, unless of course they are terrible, which Scott clearly isn't. Will he be a fixture in the first XI? I doubt it, but I'm well chuffed with him so far, however boring what he does is.

 

[antohan]

Fletcher was still visibly more talented. I don’t disagree with much of what you say, however.

McTominay’s issue yesterday was that he was part of a midfield that couldn’t actually get the ball to the attackers. So, he does need to be creative. Creative in that he can begin to dictate the game from his position. It was such a problem that we had to drag Pogba back there to do it for him. It was a poor performance.

I'd agree he has done better when we don't have to take the initiative (when the creative side becomes more important). That's an area to work on and what makes me wonder what use a loan could be, as in most cases he would just get used as a defensive shield and nobody would invest on getting a loanee to make a midfield tick.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Fletcher was still visibly more talented. I don’t disagree with much of what you say, however.

McTominay’s issue yesterday was that he was part of a midfield that couldn’t actually get the ball to the attackers. So, he does need to be creative. Creative in that he can begin to dictate the game from his position. It was such a problem that we had to drag Pogba back there to do it for him. It was a poor performance.

Imo that was a wrong move too. Don't agree with this at all. Busquets doesn't dictate play neither at Barca, etc. Merely passes it to types like Pogba. Its alright to just be a cleaner and have a limited role. It's not Scott's problem when the guys around him are not being creative.

Yesterday we had that problem for about 10 minutes towards the end of the game and when we're chasing then some people wants to blow the problem up to be Scott's fault that the other 9 guys are not finding spaces for themselves to be passed to or are not being creative. Then Ole or Pogba decided to let Pogba go back and dictate play, didn't really work neither. He then was told by Ole to go upfield again, and then we still won the game, when the other creative midfielder Fred made an assists after that.

 

[ivaldo]

Sanchez fits right into what you put forward as not being content with mediocrity. Sign big names, proven players, superstars that can help us close the gap with Barca/Madrid, yadda yadda.

Problem is, most such transfers have been worse than trusting our own like McTominay or Lingard (whom I suspect you also find mediocre).

What an odd little argument. The fact he isn't able to hold down a starting berth and is largely considered a flop, shows he doesn't have the talent we need. He's shown a capacity for it in the past and so survives somewhat on credit, but time is running out for him. I suppose we should've just stuck with the likes of Cleverley and Welbeck, right? Instead we've wasted money bringing Pogba and Martial in. Besides, I have no idea where you've got this notion I think Mctominay isn't good enough means we have to buy in superstars to replace him. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

Well you'd be wrong. Lingard has world class movement, for which I have mentioned several times on this forum. He works his arse off for the team, sure, and has the maturity and mentality in his game that is a prerequisite for a club like United, but he also has that rare talent: the ability to find and create space for others and himself that few others can replicate. He also has the knack of scoring important goals. Now, if we removed those outstanding areas of his game, we could use phrases like "steady," and "does a job" to describe him, in other words: mediocre. Lingard will unlikely be a regular starter in the near future, but we know he has the capacity to affect the course of a game and not to float along simply avoiding errors. If you can't separate a player like that with McTominay, then I can understand why you judge him as you do.

 

[Kag]

Imo that was a wrong move too. Don't agree with this at all. Busquets doesn't dictate play neither at Barca, etc. Merely passes it to types like Pogba. Its alright to just be a cleaner and have a limited role. It's not Scott's problem when the guys around him are not being creative.

Yesterday we had that problem for about 10 minutes towards the end of the game and when we're chasing then some people wants to blow the problem up to be Scott's fault that the other 9 guys are not finding spaces for themselves to be passed to or are not being creative. Then Ole or Pogba decided to let Pogba go back and dictate play, didn't really work neither. He then was told by Ole to go upfield again, and then we still won the game, when the other creative midfielder Fred made an assists after that.

Busquets definitely does help dictate the play from midfield. He’s a brilliant passer of the ball. Just because he doesn’t spray it about doesn’t mean he’s not in control.

Yesterday, the midfield was a problem for the most of the game. Not just ten minutes. We struggled to get into forward positions because there wasn’t a Matic or Herrera to collect the ball and move it on. Bizarrely, it was only when Young pumped the ball early (as he doesn’t know any better) that we were able to start attacks from the eventual throw-in inside the Southampton half.

 

[Rozay]

You have to factor in the upheaval in the first team and especially in the second team over the last 4-5 seasons. In the first team it's been the changes of manager, with all the consequent players-in, players-out, changes in playing styles.
In the second team, Van Gaal started to bring some promising players through. Most of those subsequently went on loan and then left, but the U23s, as it became, never recovered from all the departures.

Add in the loss of Brian McClair, Paul McGuiness, Warren Joyce, the club's opposition to the current U23 structure and Mourinho's lack of interest in youth players and we've ended up with a lost generation of second team players. The hope for the future has come from the U18s, and we can see them coming through.

I think Scott McT has also had to live with the label of being a Mourinho pet, a kind of alternative Fellaini because of his height, to be used when the latter wasn't available. Like Fellaini and Valencia, he could be trusted not to make waves or criticise the manager, explicitly or implicitly, all part of Mourinho's peculiar insecurity and need to create tension with senior players.

So Scott has been in some respects the fortunate beneficiary of circumstances. That's not to say he won't turn out to be a good player - Ole clearly sees something there, even if he's using him at present because of injuries. I wish him no ill - not convinced he'll be much better than he is now, but deserves his chance in what will hopefully be a more settled and positive team under Solskjaer.

Fair enough, I agree with some of that. I agree that McTominay has been a beneficiary of circumstances. I don’t agree that LVG brought through a load of promising players necessarily. It wasn’t really a great generation of youth players for us. The likes of Weir and Love were never going to be PL players let alone United ones. I do credit him though as he gave the likes of Wilson a proper go.

I also don’t agree that he ‘deserves his chance in a settled team’. Greenwood ‘deserves’ a chance at United. If Scott deserves a chance, then I believe every kid is entitled to feel they should ‘have a run of games in a settled United team to say if they can eventually mature into a good squad player’. And the truth is, if given a lot of games in a successful United team, any of our kids could probably be useful squad players. But usually only the Greenwoods, Tuanzebes and Gomes’ get that chance, and they may all end up as squad players, but the hope is they all become world class. I don’t think Scott McTominay is anymore ‘deserving’ of a run in our first team than Callum Whelan, and less so than say, Ethan Hamilton, who will never get that run of games, as he’s probably not good enough, and even then, he’s more talented than Scott. This is why I think McTominay is one of the luckiest players in the game. He’ll end up being a Manchester United player for years when he could just have easily have been a Derby County player without much conversation about it.

Anyway, I’ve said enough on the topic. I have no ‘hate’ for him. I’m just genuinely baffled. Perhaps all will be revealed in time. But he’s almost been treated similarly to Marcus Rashford since he’s come into the first team squad. He’s been given two 5 year deals in 2 years, and played 40-odd games. The type of treatment I’d have thought would be reserved for our most special only, not to ‘develop a long term squad player’. It’s unprecedented.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Well the point is that Mourinho making him out to be something he isnt, doesnt deserve credit.

Thats what I was trying to convey

 

[mufc1445]

He is growing with confidence all the time, looks as though he revels in the freedom Ole is giving him.

 

[harms]

I like how Cleverley and Gibson are used as negative examples, but both showed more at their best than McTominay did — take that Anderson-Cleverley partnership in our fantastic league run which ended with Ando’s injury, or the way Gibson shined in one of our most impressive European performances against Bayern (that we somehow lost). Granted, they played under Fergie who was a master of taking 110% out of average players.

I don’t have anything against the kid, he did relatively well in his games, even though I don’t think he’ll ever be good enough. He’s also 22 and not 18. I would be glad if he “does a Fletcher” and proves me wrong, but Fletcher also had been significantly better at that age (but was understandably frowned upon because he was supposed to succeed Beckham/Keane).

 

[Massive Spanner]

I like how Cleverley and Gibson are used as negative examples, but both showed more at their best than McTominay did — take that Anderson-Cleverley partnership in our fantastic league run which ended with Ando’s injury, or the way Gibson shined in one of our most impressive European performances against Bayern (that we somehow lost). Granted, they played under Fergie who was a master of taking 110% out of average players.

I don’t have anything against the kid, he did relatively well in his games, even though I don’t think he’ll ever be good enough. He’s also 22 and not 18. I would be glad if he “does a Fletcher” and proves me wrong, but Fletcher also had been significantly better at that age (but was understandably frowned upon because he was supposed to succeed Beckham/Keane).

I don't even seen how people can compare Fletcher to him other than them both being midfielders and Scottish.

I swear we did that recently enough with 2 other Scots. Didn't turn out so well as I recall.

 

[antohan]

What an odd little argument. The fact he isn't able to hold down a starting berth and is largely considered a flop, shows he doesn't have the talent we need. He's shown a capacity for it in the past and so survives somewhat on credit, but time is running out for him. I suppose we should've just stuck with the likes of Cleverley and Welbeck, right? Instead we've wasted money bringing Pogba and Martial in. Besides, I have no idea where you've got this notion I think Mctominay isn't good enough means we have to buy in superstars to replace him. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

Well you'd be wrong. Lingard has world class movement, for which I have mentioned several times on this forum. He works his arse off for the team, sure, and has the maturity and mentality in his game that is a prerequisite for a club like United, but he also has that rare talent: the ability to find and create space for others and himself that few others can replicate. He also has the knack of scoring important goals. Now, if we removed those outstanding areas of his game, we could use phrases like "steady," and "does a job" to describe him, in other words: mediocre. Lingard will unlikely be a regular starter in the near future, but we know he has the capacity to affect the course of a game and not to float along simply avoiding errors. If you can't separate a player like that with McTominay, then I can understand why you judge him as you do.

A 22 year old club product who is the 25th guy in your squad deserves a bit more leeway than being made out to be the symbol of mediocre expectations. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

 

[Sandikan]

McTom is a decent squad player, but I can't help thinking if he wasn't a giant he wouldn't be anywhere near our squad.

Has it all to do to improve beyond occasional filler

 

[Fortitude]

A 22 year old club product who is the 25th guy in your squad deserves a bit more leeway than being made out to be the symbol of mediocre expectations. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Yeah, this is kind of the succinct way to express the point. My opener was to note that he is massively down the pecking order, but can come in and 'do a job' and I don't really get how that is being looked down upon when dependability in the face of genuinely averse conditions is extremely rare to find in young players who aren't special in the first place.

It's relieving that this 'nobody' comes in and doesn't let himself down in what is such a vital area of the pitch. He can't be bullied and he is game against anyone, even if he isn't what would be deemed a United product to bet your house on.

 

[ivaldo]

A 22 year old club product who is the 25th guy in your squad deserves a bit more leeway than being made out to be the symbol of mediocre expectations. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

He's less than a year younger than Shaw, a year younger than Martial, a year older than Rashford, 3 years older than Dalot. You're talking as though he's some hatchling thrown into the first team. And yeah, players develop at different rates, but all of those players without exception had shown significantly more talent than McTominay has done at a younger age. Hoping he's going to magically develop the skills he needs doesn't cut it for me. The fact he's a youth product has absolutely nothing to do with it. I love the notion a youngster we develop becomes a first team regular, but at no point should it ever give weight on whether he's good enough for us. He's certainly playing a hell of a lot of games for a 25th player. The long and the short of it, if we had spent 15/20mil on him, which is an acceptable amount for a bench player in the PL, you'd be having none of it.

 

[Rozay]

Yeah, this is kind of the succinct way to express the point. My opener was to note that he is massively down the pecking order, but can come in and 'do a job' and I don't really get how that is being looked down upon when dependability in the face of genuinely averse conditions is extremely rare to find in young players who aren't special in the first place.

It's relieving that this 'nobody' comes in and doesn't let himself down in what is such a vital area of the pitch. He can't be bullied and he is game against anyone, even if he isn't what would be deemed a United product to bet your house on.

You’ve basically said the same thing again. I think people get what you mean, and have countered with ‘doesn’t let himself down and is game against anyone’ isn’t enough. Either you disagree with that point, or you just think that that is in fact, ‘enough’. Then you will have those naturally saying you are ‘accepting mediocrity’ if you think that is enough just because a player is from the academy. Then you’ve basically re-phrased that to agree that is exactly what you are doing.

And McTominay isn’t ‘massively down the pecking order’, obviously. That would be Darmian, for example. McTominay is in the side because Matic is injured. Simple as. Not because several DMs are out. The manager literally said last week that he could have gone with other options, but played McTominay ‘because he’s a youth product who ‘gets it’’. He started alongside our two other first choice midfielders, Pogba and Herrera, against Liverpool because we had ONE midfielder missing.

 

[Fortitude]

You’ve basically said the same thing again. I think people get what you mean, and have countered with ‘doesn’t let himself down and is game against anyone’ isn’t enough. Either you disagree with that point, or you just think that that is in fact, ‘enough’. Then you will have those naturally saying you are ‘accepting mediocrity’ if you think that is enough just because a player is from the academy. Then you’ve basically re-phrased that to agree that is exactly what you are doing.

And McTominay isn’t ‘massively down the pecking order’, obviously. That would be Darmian, for example. McTominay is in the side because Matic is injured. Simple as. Not because several DMs are out. The manager literally said last week that he could have gone with other options, but played McTominay ‘because he’s a youth product who ‘gets it’’. He started alongside our two other first choice midfielders, Pogba and Herrera, against Liverpool because we had ONE midfielder missing.

Yes, I'm reiterating because the point has been lost or made tangential, which is either a strawman or a completely different discussion

It doesn't matter what Ole says as opposed to what is clear: we need Pogba in the offensive area; Herrera is a vital runner and all-rounder and after that, you've got Fred, who is well below par at the moment. Pereira is flakey, and can't help but have the mental lapses that are expected of young midfielders. McTominay plays because he's the one from that group that can 'do a job' and not have the same kind of lapses that are commonplace with Fred and likely with Pereira. Perhaps that's because he's far less daring or expansive, but that doesn't matter - fact is, he's more reliable at doing the perfunctory than they are and it's important to note.

By down the pecking order, I think it's pretty clear as soon as we can get midfielders in, McTominay will not see much game time, but if they don't deliver, or if he's needed, he will be there giving a dependable performance, which is what you need from low-ranking players when they do get the chance to play.

 

[antohan]

He's less than a year younger than Shaw, a year younger than Martial, a year older than Rashford, 3 years older than Dalot. You're talking as though he's some hatchling thrown into the first team. And yeah, players develop at different rates, but all of those players without exception had shown significantly more talent than McTominay has done at a younger age. Hoping he's going to magically develop the skills he needs doesn't cut it for me. The fact he's a youth product has absolutely nothing to do with it. I love the notion a youngster we develop becomes a first team regular, but at no point should it ever give weight on whether he's good enough for us. He's certainly playing a hell of a lot of games for a 25th player. The long and the short of it, if we had spent 15/20mil on him, which is an acceptable amount for a bench player in the PL, you'd be having none of it.

I'm not hoping he is going to magically develop into a world class CM. In fact, I'm pretty sure he won't. Nobody rushed to give him time in the PL aged 18 like with Garner.

Now, that's all irrelevant because the OP was celebrating how such a player has stepped into the PL (not United, the PL) and didn't look out of place. That's rare, particularly in midfield. All you had to say on that was he celebrates mediocrity and I disagree.

Exhibit A - Klopp says he couldn't bring on 60M much fancied Keita into the pressure of a derby and needing a win to stay top.

Exhibit B - With Martial and Lingard out, Matic gets injured and McTominay has to step in at the 11th hour for a derby. Halfway through the first half Herrera is off and Scott is left in the company of Pogba and Pereira, both of these prone to lapses from a defensive standpoint. If anyone ever had all the excuses setup for a bad day at the office, that was him, and yet, Liverpool didn't trouble us at all.

So yeah, celebrate his mental strength and ability to contribute when called upon. That's what some of us are doing here instead of acting all self-important and banging on about mediocre expectations.

 

[Mihai]

He was very good against Liverpool, great against Palace and had an average game against Southampton (albeit it got worse after the injury).

He is generally a squad rotation player who does a good job whenever plays and hardly makes a mistake or impacts the outcome of our games (in a negative way). He is also young and may even improve, doesn't kick up a fuss to get more game time and is an academy graduate. Taking all these into account, I think he is a great squad player to have at the moment. He will probably be sold if Garner fulfills his potential in a couple of years.

 

[deef]

He's less than a year younger than Shaw, a year younger than Martial, a year older than Rashford, 3 years older than Dalot. You're talking as though he's some hatchling thrown into the first team. And yeah, players develop at different rates, but all of those players without exception had shown significantly more talent than McTominay has done at a younger age. Hoping he's going to magically develop the skills he needs doesn't cut it for me. The fact he's a youth product has absolutely nothing to do with it. I love the notion a youngster we develop becomes a first team regular, but at no point should it ever give weight on whether he's good enough for us. He's certainly playing a hell of a lot of games for a 25th player. The long and the short of it, if we had spent 15/20mil on him, which is an acceptable amount for a bench player in the PL, you'd be having none of it.

22 is still young and I would argue that it's easier to play on the wings than in the middle of the pitch. You have to be tactically sound and position yourself well in attacking and defensive areas to play there.

He has much room to improve but what I've seen so far from him warrants his place in the squad. He has shown he can be trusted to give Matic a rest. We cannot play Matic every game and he's not getting younger either...

Let him stay and give him time to develop. If he isn't improving sell him otherwise keep him as an option in the squad

 

[Roboc7]

It's not pointless in the grip of an injury crisis, though? He is keeping a solid base for us, preventing us from being bullied and, for once, workrate as a plus really does ring true.

Personally, I'm not looking to him for forward-thinking play or game-affecting performance on the offensive end - simply being dependable at the basics and defensively solid is really important for us at the moment and he's doing that to a standard where he's not being singled out as a liability.


That's one hell of a drop. We're not protecting him in this team - he's on his own for large portions of the game and if he were that bad, there'd be a deluge of threads about him.

If his physicality is part of the reason why he can do what he's doing, more power to it, but how would that make him any less of a PL-level player?

McTominay's job of just slotting in when needed with little time as a settled player is a strength not a weakness. I mean, how many times do we hear that players need X amount of time to find their feet in a team before they can be expected to express themselves or perform without fear?

Having an academy player who can come in and keep things ticking over in some capacity right in the heart of midfield isn't common at top clubs.
Indeed, this is how I see it with regard to what he offers. He's an obstacle and a very useful player (at the level he's considered to be) to come in as he has.

He didn't have a really poor game though. Going forward it wasn't good, but on the defensive end, he put in a lot of work, and given the circumstances, he is quite invaluable to have at the moment.

Tuanzebe was able to come in and do the same job despite being younger and playing out of position. What Mctominay is doing now isn’t difficult, he has a limited job to do for handful of games with virtually no expectation.

 

[POF]

If McTominay had a Spanish, Italian, or Brazilian name, everyone would be singing his praises. The people who are not impressed with him just don't believe his name, nationality, or heritage, is sexy enough for United. This is sad but true!

I think he's did a great job and hope he continues to improve and impress.

Or if, like Mason Greenwood, he was really good at football.

 

[ivaldo]

I'm not hoping he is going to magically develop into a world class CM. In fact, I'm pretty sure he won't. Nobody rushed to give him time in the PL aged 18 like with Garner.

Now, that's all irrelevant because the OP was celebrating how such a player has stepped into the PL (not United, the PL) and didn't look out of place. That's rare, particularly in midfield. All you had to say on that was he celebrates mediocrity and I disagree.

Exhibit A - Klopp says he couldn't bring on 60M much fancied Keita into the pressure of a derby and needing a win to stay top.

Exhibit B - With Martial and Lingard out, Matic gets injured and McTominay has to step in at the 11th hour for a derby. Halfway through the first half Herrera is off and Scott is left in the company of Pogba and Pereira, both of these prone to lapses from a defensive standpoint. If anyone ever had all the excuses setup for a bad day at the office, that was him, and yet, Liverpool didn't trouble us at all.

So yeah, celebrate his mental strength and ability to contribute when called upon. That's what some of us are doing here instead of acting all self-important and banging on about mediocre expectations.

At no point did I say he'd become world class, or insinuated you had done, so no, it isn't irrelevant. And no, that isn't all I had to say on that, feel free to demonstrate where, within my original response, I'd stated such a thing. Conversations move on and go on various tangents, stop trying to reinvent what's been said and where it has been said in order to accommodate your narrative.

There's some serious leaps in your logic there, pal. Liverpool haven't been threatening many teams of late. They've only scored in 1 of their last 4 games. To turn that into proof it was a mature performance is stretching to say the least, the same logic can be used for Peirera there, too.

That's just my point, he isn't contributing a lot. Coming in and avoiding taking the ball in dangerous positions, not looking to win the ball back, or playing anything other than the safe pass isn't contributing to me. If anything, he's relying on the other players within the team to do the work while he concentrates on not fecking up. Use vague terms like "tidy" and "does a job" is a way to try and justify this.

If he was at a midtable or lower end club in the PL he wouldn't be afforded that level of passiveness. That would certainly test whether he was 'PL ready,' and I have the feeling he'd be found out. That's not to say he couldn't grow to be of PL standard mind, but that's not what we are discussing.

Self important? You're going to have to elaborate on that. Seems like you've just selected a random insult to throw in there.

 

[Massive Spanner]

If McTominay had a Spanish, Italian, or Brazilian name, everyone would be singing his praises. The people who are not impressed with him just don't believe his name, nationality, or heritage, is sexy enough for United. This is sad but true!

I think he's did a great job and hope he continues to improve and impress.

Not this shite again.

Talented young British players get hyped up by the English press and media more than any other nationality.

If he looked anything like a top talent then everyone would be singing his praises.

 

[antohan]

At no point did I say he'd become world class, or insinuated you had done, so no, it isn't irrelevant. And no, that isn't all I had to say on that, feel free to demonstrate where, within my original response, I'd stated such a thing. Conversations move on and go on various tangents, stop trying to reinvent what's been said and where it has been said in order to accommodate your narrative.

There's some serious leaps in your logic there, pal. Liverpool haven't been threatening many teams of late. They've only scored in 1 of their last 4 games. To turn that into proof it was a mature performance is stretching to say the least, the same logic can be used for Peirera there, too.

That's just my point, he isn't contributing a lot. Coming in and avoiding taking the ball in dangerous positions, not looking to win the ball back, or playing anything other than the safe pass isn't contributing to me. If anything, he's relying on the other players within the team to do the work while he concentrates on not fecking up. Use vague terms like "tidy" and "does a job" is a way to try and justify this.

If he was at a midtable or lower end club in the PL he wouldn't be afforded that level of passiveness. That would certainly test whether he was 'PL ready,' and I have the feeling he'd be found out. That's not to say he couldn't grow to be of PL standard mind, but that's not what we are discussing.

Self important? You're going to have to elaborate on that. Seems like you've just selected a random insult to throw in there.

My narrative? You are the one insisting on labeling a player and anyone who is happy with him as mediocre. Matic's absence hasn't been noticed, we've stayed on course, that's a job well done.

 

[ivaldo]

My narrative? You are the one insisting on labeling a player and anyone who is happy with him as mediocre. Matic's absence hasn't been noticed, we've stayed on course, that's a job well done.

I've not labelled any poster as mediocre. That's the second time you've just ignored 90% of the post then made shit up that I've said. I've asked you to clarify two of these unsubstantiated claims and you've ignored it entirely, hence the narrative. If you don't want to actually discuss whats there, that's fine, just don't bother replying.

 

[antohan]

I've not labelled any poster as mediocre. That's the second time you've just ignored 90% of the post then made shit up that I've said. I've asked you to clarify two of these unsubstantiated claims and you've ignored it entirely, hence the narrative. If you don't want to actually discuss whats there, that's fine, just don't bother replying.

Because you go off down tangents. When you say we are celebrating mediocrity you call him mediocre and clearly anyone celebrating mediocrity must, you know, be equally mediocre. Thus the self-important jibe, too many people on here seem to be of the idea that every player must be absolute top dog or thereabouts or else we lack ambition / are mediocre / will never close the gap. Absolute bollocks.

 

[ivaldo]

Because you go off down tangents. When you say we are celebrating mediocrity you call him mediocre and clearly anyone celebrating mediocrity must, you know, be equally mediocre. Thus the self-important jibe, too many people on here seem to be of the idea that every player must beabsolute top dog or thereabouts or else we lack ambition / are mediocre / will never close the gap. Absolute bollocks.

Wow. What on earth are you rambling on about? I also think eggs taste shite, that doesn’t mean, you know, that I think everyone who also likes eggs are shite people. It’s complete illogical nonsense, and im beginning to understand why you don’t respond when challenged on some of the accuse me of.

We’ve already gone down this avenue, When you assumed I thought Lingard was shit and I pointed out to you the difference between Lingard and McTominay. Of course, once I done that you ignored that part of my post entirely and moved on to something else. I can’t believe I’m having to write this again to you, but it isn’t about being a superstar or “top dog,” but about being able to positively impact a game, which McTominay simply isn’t doing.

 

[antohan]

Wow. What on earth are you rambling on about? I also think eggs taste shite, that doesn’t mean, you know, that I think everyone who also likes eggs are shite people. It’s complete illogical nonsense, and im beginning to understand why you don’t respond when challenged on some of the accuse me of.

We’ve already gone down this avenue, When you assumed I thought Lingard was shit and I pointed out to you the difference between Lingard and McTominay. Of course, once I done that you ignored that part of my post entirely and moved on to something else. I can’t believe I’m having to write this again to you, but it isn’t about being a superstar or “top dog,” but about being able to positively impact a game, which McTominay simply isn’t doing.

We firstly need him to fulfill his role. I rarely expected Nicky Butt to positively impact a game (which he did occasionally mind) I mostly wanted not to miss Keane or Scholes too badly so others could have their usual impact.

Re: Lingard, didn't reply because I agree. Lots of shades of Lingard criticism here ("not a teenager anymore", "not the required standard to get to the top", "people like him because he is our product, works hard and runs a lot") but I gather you weren't one of those, which is fair enough.

Only mediocre people with no ambition celebrate mediocrity, that's a given. The egg example is rather different.

Anyhow, agree to disagree I guess. Not that I think we assess him that differently, you are just criticising him from a glass half empty perspective while I'm more considerate and appreciative of his efforts.

 

[deleon]

Is he currently good enough to be our main back-up defensive midfielder?

No.

In transition, he does not release the ball quickly enough, especially with his safe passes. This occasionally puts defenders and the keeper under unnecessary pressure. For a back-up player, I think this is a greater "sin" than the lack of offensive contributions.

In defence, he doesn't do enough to prevent opponents playing through him, despite displaying good workrate.

To that end, I think the OP's praise is lavishly red-tinted.

However, a lot of the dismissive opinions in this thread have been directed at the player's potential quality. That seems reductive.

The areas in which McTominay needs to improve most are tactical and mental. And although his technical attributes have room for development too, he has shown touches that allow him to get out of tight situations; and when he plays driven forward passes (albeit rarely), they seem well-weighted and maintain the attacking tempo.

What this shows is that he needs to play regularly so that he can learn to do what he does well more frequently and consistently, and gain the experience to improve his game tactically.

He's already 22, and should be playing pretty much on a weekly basis. Sitting on the bench waiting for a midfield crisis next season will only stagnate his progress. A couple of loan spells, similar to those that Lingard had around his age, should be more beneficial.

If he can be a competent back-up player by the time he's 25, he'd still be a success story for our academy.

 

[tomaldinho1]

This is what our academy should be about though, the future of our club will be built on the 'good' players who come through the ranks and hopefully stick around. You'll never create more than one, maybe two world class players from each 'generation' and that's why having a good scouting system (something I'd say we are lagging behind on) is imperative for when you do need to take a gamble on bringing a player in for vast sums of money. However, if you look back on our post SAF era and the stupid amount of money we've spent on players like Blind, Rojo, Darmian, Varela, Fellaini, Schneiderlin who are essentially squad players I don't think we'd have been any worse off bringing through academy players.

It'll never be a perfect science but what excites me about Ole is he seems happy to let kids have a chance, even if they then fail. McT isn't in my view going to be a top player but he's solid and should be kept around the first team and even as a backup CM/DM he's going to get a lot of minutes across different competitions. Same goes for all academy players, if you can get them a good loan that's probably first choice but otherwise they should be the go to when any injuries hit or fitness is an issue.

 

[Momochiru]

He was very good against Pool, but had a bit of a drop against Soton. I think 2 factors played a role:

1. he played most of the game next to Pereira, who is not that great defensively, so that probably restricted his game a bit.
2. he clattered really badly with Lindelof in the first few minutes of the game. There was quite a big whiplash on his neck and something like that can affect you both physically and mentally.

Considering all that he did pretty well. Don't know why so many people are so negative.