Germany and Spain aside these teams are currently not really better than Brazil, Argentina and I'd say that Italy and France aren't much better than Colombia or Uruguay either. Obviously Euro has stronger teams, I won't argue against it but Copa America isn't awful.Compared to a competition that has Spain, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal in it, I'd say it's weak.
With Argentina, as I said I thought di Maria had a decent tournament, but I'll put him aside for a minute since some disagree with that. Rojo and Garay performed well at the back, Lavezzi did well too. I just don't see Messi really standing out from that team.
Just to clarify this for some slow ones in here: I'm not here to claim Ronaldo is better than Messi or that Messi isn't possibly the best player in the world right now. I just think all these claims of him being the best ever and not entirely justified since he also has flaws in his career. The same goes for Ronaldo for that matter.
So? He didn't perform.I felt so bad for Ronaldo in the world cup, even I would have been mad if I had the same team mates he had to play with.
Messi had Aguero whilst Ronaldo had Eder aka Tesco value Drogba
Compared to the Euros, the competition in the Copa is poor in my opinion since the Euro simply has stronger teams overall. When you reach deeper, you'll find Bolivia and Costa Rica at the CA while at the Euros, you'll still have decent teams. There's just rarely a really easy opponent.Germany and Spain aside these teams are currently not really better than Brazil, Argentina and I'd say that Italy and France aren't much better than Colombia or Uruguay either. Obviously Euro has stronger teams, I won't argue against it but Copa America isn't awful.
Messi was considerably better than Lavezzi and especially Di Maria.
I find it really ridiculous that I've discussed that Messi, player who has consistently scored 70+ goals a season and has broken pretty much all record there were, all while being creative and essential to his team, cannot really be singled out for underachieving during his career and did pretty well in a tournament in which he was joint second top scorer and voted player of the tournament, and Guardiola who won 14 out of 18 available trophies, 3 out of 4 league titles and 2 out of 4 CL trophies during his time at Barcelona didn't actually UNDERACHIEVE there. It's so difficult to discuss Barcelona and Messi because it seems like people can't really accept how good they are or were.
madder than having great team mates that dont perform well at all?I felt so bad for Ronaldo in the world cup, even I would have been mad if I had the same team mates he had to play with.
Messi had Aguero whilst Ronaldo had Eder aka Tesco value Drogba
Costa Rica is not a south american countryCompared to the Euros, the competition in the Copa is poor in my opinion since the Euro simply has stronger teams overall. When you reach deeper, you'll find Bolivia and Costa Rica at the CA while at the Euros, you'll still have decent teams. There's just rarely a really easy opponent.
As I've said, Messi the Barca player has been superb, I never debated that. I also won't debate Guardiola's qualities and consider the current criticism he faces to be ridiculous. I just wanted to discuss the point that Messi's superb performances have only come at Barcelona and no where else. Unfortunately, there is only the national team to be had and while he hasn't been poor to the degree of Aguero at the last WC for example, he's also not been that great. One can discuss how good he was, but the point stands that the Argentina Messi isn't close to as good as the Barcelona Messi, which obviously is also a result of the Barcelona Messi being that good.
Nonetheless, there are players who have been equally superb for different clubs and their respective countries, with Zidane and the Brazilian Ronaldo being examples that aren't too far in the past. So my point is still: What makes Messi and even Ronaldo for that matter clearly better than those two?
To be fair, Cal's posts are probably about 49 of those pages.How can a debate over the better player between Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo last 50 pages..
There isn't a debate - that was over 5 years ago - it's just fanboi baiting.
Costa Rica were in the World Cup quarterfinal last year after knocking out Italy, England and Greece and only lost to Netherlands on penalties. They are not a bad team. On the other hand we've had teams like Poland, Latvia, Slovenia and Ireland at Euros - none of them really very good and there are bound to be more at the next tournament with 24 teams there.Compared to the Euros, the competition in the Copa is poor in my opinion since the Euro simply has stronger teams overall. When you reach deeper, you'll find Bolivia and Costa Rica at the CA while at the Euros, you'll still have decent teams. There's just rarely a really easy opponent.
It's that they (especially Messi) have produced much, much more at club level than either of them and in terms of national teams both have been hugely let down by either quality or management of their national teams so I don't think it's a fair ground for comparison. Messi's international struges have been hugely blown out of proportion IMO, at the last World Cup the only thing missing was the gold medal and perhaps a goal in the final. He wasn't at his very best but he was good nonetheless.As I've said, Messi the Barca player has been superb, I never debated that. I also won't debate Guardiola's qualities and consider the current criticism he faces to be ridiculous. I just wanted to discuss the point that Messi's superb performances have only come at Barcelona and no where else. Unfortunately, there is only the national team to be had and while he hasn't been poor to the degree of Aguero at the last WC for example, he's also not been that great. One can discuss how good he was, but the point stands that the Argentina Messi isn't close to as good as the Barcelona Messi, which obviously is also a result of the Barcelona Messi being that good.
Nonetheless, there are players who have been equally superb for different clubs and their respective countries, with Zidane and the Brazilian Ronaldo being examples that aren't too far in the past. So my point is still: What makes Messi and even Ronaldo for that matter clearly better than those two?
Just one type was missing. Voila.If you're talking about me, I'm not taking any corner. I don't give enough of a f*** to debate who's better between the two. I'm just here because I don't see either of them being as good as they're sometimes hyped to be. I think with the emergence of social media and video availability, players in today's era are being praised a lot more than years ago. I just don't see what Messi or Ronaldo so clearly hold over the likes of Zidane and the Brazilian Ronaldo for example.
Some long forgotten poster on the caf nailed it many years ago:I could never understand that shite. When Stoke on a cold winters night weren't much of a challenge to Valencia a few years ago I'd say Messi would have a mighty time against them.
This season was the first season for many, many years that I wasn't there, but, watching Messi, you don't miss being there!
You enjoy it so much that you don't think about not being there. You just think about what the guy did.
One thing is a team; another thing is a team with Messi. It is a different story.
He played a Champions League final with [Pep] Guardiola, he is normally going to play in this season’s Champions League final with Luis Enrique and if, one day, he plays for Anthony, Anthony will go to a Champions League final with him. When people analyse teams, you have to remember that this boy makes everything different.
Every time I played against Messi, I spent hours studying and trying to stop him, Many times, we were successful. Other times, we were not successful. With Inter, we stopped him in both matches [of the semi-final].
The best way to do it is man-to-man because that is better than involving everyone. When you go man-to-man, you go with similar power – although man-to-man with him is an impossible job. Every time I was thinking about how best collectively – I am not saying stop him – to give him a difficult match. I think this is the correct word. It is not about stopping him but giving him a difficult match. That is the best you do against him.
What Mourinho says on this is pretty worthless, he had a poor relationship with Ronaldo by the end and Guardiola is a rival.From the guy who trained and managed Ronaldo....
Pele's Brazil won the world cup without him. Barcelona has no chance in hell of winning anything without Messi.I posted in another thread about the extreme concentration of talent at the top clubs, which has reached unprecedented levels. I think what we're seeing with Messi and Ronaldo is a result of this. These 2 are enormously talented, but at club level they also have the benefit of being surrounded by 10 other guys who are arguably the world's top players in each position. Not taking anything away from their unbelievable goalscoring records, but I can't imagine this could happen in any previous era of the game. With their respective national teams, things look a bit more normal - both monstrous, legendary players - neither singlehandedly able to dominate the international game.
A point is often made in the whole Maradona v Pele debate that Pele had the benefit of being in a great Santos team a star-studded Brazil squad. Even that is nothing compared to the players that Messi and Ronaldo have to create space and opportunities for them. The fact that they stand out amongst other excellent players is a testament to their genius. But it doesn't change the fact that it pads their productivity and enables them to reach even greater heights than they could in a more egalitarian era.
Mourinho is spot on.From the guy who trained and managed Ronaldo....
Doesn't take anything away from the comment,he didn't come across as having an agenda against anyone,he was talking about stopping Messi - he also spoke about his time at Inter which has nothing to do with Pep and Ronaldo.What Mourinho says on this is pretty worthless, he had a poor relationship with Ronaldo by the end and Guardiola is a rival.
He basically saying Messi is great and unstoppable, but he always managed to stop him play successfully....From the guy who trained and managed Ronaldo....
No he's not. And rightly so, because he didn't.He basically saying Messi is great and unstoppable, but he always managed to stop him play successfully....
To be fair, he had a huge fued with Ronaldo before he managed him, and towards the end of his tenure with Madrid.From the guy who trained and managed Ronaldo....
He did though, literally. Although he did correct himself with the word "giving him a difficult match" later on. But for me its a case of him praising Messi and even more so praising his own tactical genius of "stopping" him play.No he's not. And rightly so, because he didn't.
This season was the first season for many, many years that I wasn't there, but, watching Messi, you don't miss being there!
You enjoy it so much that you don't think about not being there. You just think about what the guy did.
One thing is a team; another thing is a team with Messi. It is a different story.
He played a Champions League final with [Pep] Guardiola, he is normally going to play in this season’s Champions League final with Luis Enrique and if, one day, he plays for Anthony, Anthony will go to a Champions League final with him. When people analyse teams, you have to remember that this boy makes everything different.
Every time I played against Messi, I spent hours studying and trying to stop him, Many times, we were successful. Other times, we were not successful. With Inter, we stopped him in both matches [of the semi-final].
The best way to do it is man-to-man because that is better than involving everyone. When you go man-to-man, you go with similar power – although man-to-man with him is an impossible job. Every time I was thinking about how best collectively – I am not saying stop him – to give him a difficult match. I think this is the correct word. It is not about stopping him but giving him a difficult match. That is the best you do against him.
Well no...If you read the quote you bolded he says he didn't always manage to stop him. He didn't stop him as a youngster when he played Chelsea (del Horno red card match) and he didn't stop him on a few occasions against Real Madrid.He did though, literally. Although he did correct himself with the word "giving him a difficult match" later on.
"Many times, we were successful..."Well no...If you read the quote you bolded he says he didn't always manage to stop him. He didn't stop him as a youngster when he played Chelsea (del Horno red card match) and he didn't stop him on a few occasions against Real Madrid.
"Other times, we were not successful"...
My point was that you said he said he always(key word) stopped him when he didn't suggest that."Many times, we were successful..."
I don't know, "many times" sound like more for me, "other times" sounds like less....
If he say "many times they fail, other times they succeed" maybe then you are right...
But anyway, he did praise Messi highly there. Its just that I feel it is another subtle way of Mourinho to praise his own genius there...
Agree completely with this.He's "just" Ronaldo. Expectations set on him are too high. With scarcer service and much poorer players upfront with him his impact diminishes substantially, as he's incapable of running matches on his own, and he doesn't create something out of nothing that often. We can only see Real's Ronaldo on occasion, like against Sweden, because rarely the team will provide him that sort of chances (which weren't easy chances at all, it must be said). I think his productivity is perfectly acceptable given the circumstances. He's similar to what he looks when Real plays poorly, it's just that Portugal plays poorly a lot more often.
I don't see that much of Messi for Argentina so my sample is small and limited to the World Cup, but from what I saw I think he influences the team far more than Ronaldo. I think that's expectable because Messi is a better and more complete player by a comfortable distance, in my opinion at least. They both score and assist less than at club level, but Messi adds something beyond that which Ronaldo just can't do.
I have more problems with Ronaldo's attitude and demeanour than with his productivity. He's obviously not "captain material". The (admittedly subjective) impression I have is that he somehow blames his national team-mates for not being as good as his club team-mates. When things aren't going well he seems to pout instead of trying to lift the team's spirit and motivate them.
Aye, I've often mentioned it as well. 1 plays for the most expensively assembled squad ever (RM) - FFS, their bench cost more than the entire squad of most other Liga clubs & the other had the benefit of almost a freak generation of players all coming through and peaking together - in a familiar system. & the 2-3 positions they didn't have quality players, they supplemented that by signing world class expensive players.@Darwin09 I always thought about that, and I do find it strange how few times that point is brought up when comparing Ronaldo and Messi with other top players. It's the most oligopolistic era in football. I do think Messi and Ronaldo are probably up there, but the goalscoring records themselves are a product of more than just their talent.
So just to add to it: If neither Ronaldo nor Messi have performed well for their respective national teams, how can they be the undisputed best players in the world? Especially if Messi has only really performed at his outstanding level while he was with Barcelona?
I'm just surprised Messi has never really performed as well as he did for Barcelona under different circumstances, which leads you to believe whether the system, the cohesiveness of a core that's been kept together for a while and his good teammates have contributed to his greatness there.
That's why I find it hard to just have Messi as clearly the best football in the world. His technical and finishing ability as well as his vision on the pitch are superb no doubt about it, but other players have superb qualities as well, his teammate Iniesta being one of them.
Tell me which Argentina year he compared to one of his Barcelona peak years? There hasn't been one.
Skorenzy said:2012, he was just as good for Argentina as for Barça in my opinion (perhaps even better). 9 games, 12 goals, including hat-tricks in friendlies against Switzerland and Brazil (a magnificent one that was), a great performance and a goal against Germany, and excellent performances against Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and Ecuador in WC qualifying.
Everyone is a contender.Copa America tends to be an excellent tournament. There are no pushovers on the continent.
next copa america will have the top scorers in england -aguero- italy -tevez- maybe spain -messi- plus neymar, suarez, vidal, alexis sanchez, James rodriguezYouth tournaments are irrelevant, as are the Olympics since a lot of great players aren't involved there. The Copa America is also a weak tournament compared to the Euros for example.
As I said, I don't rate his 2014 WC performance highly, others contributed as much or more than he did.
As for the topscorer story, well Rooney is one of the topscorers for England and his national team career hasn't been great, so that's not much of a factor either.
I'm not trying to belittle Messi, I just don't see anything close to the magic he's performing with Barcelona during his spells with the national team.
Watched it. I think you really underrated Messi's peak for Barcelona if you think that this video shows he played at that level for Argentina. In the year 2011, Messi scored two goals in all real competitions - one against Chile and another against Columbia. Then further two goals in friendlies against Portugal and Albania. So he scored 4 goals in 13 games that year in comparison to his Barcelona peak where he scored 73 goals in 60 games on top of plenty of assists.Anyway, watch this video with just some highlights from those games and tell me again how he never got close to his Barça form for Arg...
Maybe. I don't really rate 2012 (or 2011-12) as Messi's best ever season, part of his (first?) peak, sure, but not the highest point which for me is 2009-10 and 2010-11. And in any case it's rather irrelevant anyway as it wouldn't change my view on him matching his club performance level in 2012 with his NT. Same for subsequent years/seasons except for the current one.I think you really underrated Messi's peak for Barcelona if you think that this video shows he played at that level for Argentina.
... I'm confused. That is exactly the point I made: "It's one thing to question this [goal production], but another entirely to mix it up with 'performance [level]'."Scoring one goal per game of course wouldn't mean he was per default at the same level as for Barcelona anyhow
Not always, but by and large, yes. And I'm simply claiming that he did similarly for Argentina in 2012, with even more responsibility for creation from MF (unlike at Barça where he had Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets behind him) in a far less dominant side.For Barcelona he was electrifying and threatening all games long. He was involved with plenty of great plays through-out the game whether he scored/assisted or not.
... Again, confused. Where exactly did you gather this from? Where did I even allude to or imply any of this? My post never claimed anything about tournaments or past greats against whom his NT career is indeed average, I claimed only that he, in my opinion, more or less matched his own club performance level with the NT during the corresponding period, being 2011-14 (most of all in 2012).Take Maradona in 1986, Platini in 1984 or whatever as examples and it becomes clear that they were as good if not better than for their club in that years performances. Anybody suggesting they've been as good for their national teams as their clubs is as crazy as anybody who would say they've played bad in comparison to other players of the current era
If you want to claim Messi has been as good for his national team in official matches as Maradona/Platini/Pele then you haven't watched the latter play in their peak year/years or you are simply biased towards Ronaldo/Messi.
I've never seen anybody who has actually seen the full matches of Maradona/Platini/Pele in their peaks argue that Messi/Ronaldo reached that level yet, especially at the biggest stage.
I don't think my opinion on how Messi's club peak is worth any more than yours I am sure you have watched him extensively.Maybe. I don't really rate 2012 (or 2011-12) as Messi's best ever season, part of his (first?) peak, sure, but not the highest point which for me is 2009-10 and 2010-11. And in any case it's rather irrelevant anyway as it wouldn't change my view on him matching his club performance level in 2012 with his NT. Same for subsequent years/seasons except for the current one.
... Again, confused. Where exactly did you gather this from? Where did I even allude to or imply any of this? My post never claimed anything about tournaments or past greats against whom his NT career is indeed average, I claimed only that he, in my opinion, more or less matched his own club performance level with the NT during the corresponding period, being 2011-14 (most of all in 2012).
I didn't mean that goal production was a deciding factor, just wanted to show that neither Messi or Ronaldo are performing at some sort of all-time legend just based on goals. When someone like Ibrahimovic has done even better in terms of goals when he plays for a much inferior team, with much lesser players around him and who face teams that are relatively to themselves much better. Neymar could also be used as an example of someone who is up there with Messi and Ronaldo in terms of goals per game.... I'm confused. That is exactly the point I made: "It's one thing to question this [goal production], but another entirely to mix it up with 'performance [level]'."
I merely noted his gpg under Sabella because a lot of people have no clue about his performances for Argentina and only see the drop in goalscoring (which is another discussion altogether). Also, you indeed seperate goalscoring and performance but then go on to compare Messi's, Cristiano's and Ibra's recent goalscoring records for their NTs as if that automatically has any bearing on the quality, influence and consistency of their performances.
