Thing is he wasnt goal level in the other aspects of the game, mostly ranging from good, very good and great.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Exactly
I agree with your post and want to add two things.
Gerd Müller is without a doubt one of the best, if not the best, goal scorer to ever play. But he had a lot more to his game besides scoring goals.
The reason he is usually not mentioned in the „GOAT debates“ is, that he wasn’t even the best player in his side. That would have been Beckenbauer.
Yep. Messi has been making me watch random Barca matches for many, many years. He is the only player that does that for me.
Absolutely true, but try explaining to the Twitter generation that Beckenbauer and Cruyff were the premier players of the 70s when Gerd Muller was scoring 650 goals at the same time. Their tiny little minds cannot compute.
Yup, its weird that they always mentioned Messi cannot win without xavi and iniesta (as if Modric, Scholes and Rooney are scrubs), but never had a thought in their minds what type of coaches CR7 has won big trophies with versus what type of coaches Messi won big trophies with.
Messi had at max 4 seasons with a top coach, CR7 played under top coaches for more than a decade
It depends how you look at at, over the years there have been long list of players having a great one off tournament in WC or Euro or Copa, or 2, but very few could sustain their top form long over a span of 15 years+.
- Foutaine 13 goals (1958 WC)
- Kocsis 11 goals (1954 WC)
- Muller 10 goals (1970 WC)
- Eusebio 9 goals (1966 WC)
- Platini 9 goals (1984 Euro)
- Jair 9 goals (1949 Copa)
- Maschio 9 goals (1951 Copa)
- Ambrosis 9 goals (1957 Copa)
- L. Ronaldo 8 goals (2002 WC)
- Stabile 8 goals (1930 WC)
- Adenin 8 goals (1950 WC)
I mean, not to detail the greatness of any of above, but isn’t it the case that in general, for most players at least, it’s easier or more likely for them to go through a shorter period of “purple patch” or “peak form”, rather than to sustain it over the long period of their career?
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Sorry my bad, was meant to say back pass rule, but it’s irrelevant to the point anyway, my mistake.
I’d argue Ronaldo during 07-14 was closer to footballing level of Pele or Cruyff more than recent version (goat goalscorer)
Man, that one chance to see his ability to adapt to different tactics and different leagues has gone. Shame.
I actually felt relieved for the CR7 fanboys that Messi is staying at the broken Barca team.
Imagine him going to PSG or City, he will rack up even better numbers and might win another CL. Not too sure if the CR7 brigate can handle it emotionally
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Is he though?
Fighting for the first spot with Muller
I was being slightly tongue in cheek but I've no real interest in getting involved in this thread.
Care to enlighten me what those top coaches are?
Mourinho was just starting his downward slope.
Ancelotti was good CL manager, but past it in may other regards.
The only WC managers Ronaldo played under were Zizou and SAF. He also reached consecutive CL finals under both of them something Messi never managed to do.
Also let's not pretend Messi played under Moyes and Allardyce. He did play under Pep which is literally breaking records in every league he has managed. Tito had a really short managerial career(RIP), but since he managed to win a treble in his first year(something his succesor's couldn't do) he was at the very least a very good coach.
Also let's talk about the fact that Messi's Barca literally imploded 2 years in a row while being 4-1 up in the first leg. Speaks volumes about his mentality. If it happens once, it's an accident, but since this is a common occurrence in his career it has to be a mental thing. Let's not forget that under Pep he had the chance to retain the CL, yet came in short. Why? Because he couldn't get past a 10 man Chelsea and a 10 man Inter.
Personally I'm struggling to remember a time Ronaldo was in a similar position. His teams never capitulated the way Barca did.
And this for me is what sets Ronaldo apart from Messi. His insane mentality. The man is a machine. Let's be honest, talent wise Ronaldo is slightly below World Class. I clearly remember people saying that Quaresma, Nani and Rooney were more talented than he was. Yet thanks to his insane work rate and absolute unit of a mentality he managed to not only keep up with a much more talented Messi.
Now if someone like Rooney or Nani had Ronaldo's mentality and work ethic I assure you this thread would be absolutely redundant.
Sure, name me another top coach that messi had outside Pep.
Are you actually trying to convince people here that Enrique, Tito(RIP), Tata, Valverde and Setien are the same level or even better compared to Mourinho, Allegri and Zizou? Are you serious?
Talk about being deluded.
Did I touch a nerve there buddy?
You mentioned him yourself. I mean he did win the treble after all.
As I said, it's not like he played under Moyes and Allardayce.
Indeed you touched a nerve, because you have just insulted everyone’s intellect by trying to convince us that Tito, Tata, Setien and Valverde is the same level as Mourinho.
Go on, tell us which of Messi’s other managers outside Pep is as good as or even better than Mourinho
Funny you mentioned Moyes,because Moyes is even better than Setien for example
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I love the fact that the gist of these discussions is always that Messi and Ronaldo are one man teams. The rest of the squad and the managers seem fairly irrelevant. No doubt that they are absolutely the key attacking players, but you absolutely need the whole team to peak to consistenly dominate. And then there is stuff like a fair share of luck and good tactics in a knockout competition.
These top coaches are: Sir Alex Ferguson, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane, Allegri et al. Even managers like Scolari and Rafa Benitez achieved far more than all of Messi's coaches other than Pep. Your argument is Tito must have been a good coach because he won with Barcelona when his previous trophies were Paraguayan league titles yet you're here saying multiple CL winners Mourinho and Ancelotti who went on to win league titles in elite European leagues after coaching Ronaldo weren't top coaches when they managed Real Madrid
Just look at their respective resumes again and have a little rethink:
Ronaldo's managers' resume without Ronaldo:
World Cup: 1
Champions League: 6
Europa/Cup Winner's Cup: 8
PL: 16
La Liga: 3
Serie A: 8
Bundesliga: 1
Ligue Un: 1
Other European Leagues: 6
South American Leagues: 6
Messi's managers' resume without Messi:
Copa America: 3
PL: 3
Bundesliga: 3
Eredivisie: 3
Libertadores: 1
South American Leagues: 7
There's no argument.
where was Ronaldo’s mentality getting bounced my much inferior teams such as Porto and Lyon? Messi created every single chance in that second liverpool leg, but sure he’s the reason they conceded 4. Ronaldo has been thumped MANY times by Messi’s Barca, where was the mentality then? I don’t disagree that Ronaldo is strong mentally, but he’s never ever had a back line as poor as the ones Messi has had in recent years. Give Messi a solid backline and we’ve seen the results (CL’s, World Cup finals, Copa America winner). Ronaldo wouldn’t be up there preventing Bayern from destroying Barca. If anything, Ronaldo’s time with Juve shows just how important it is to have other players step up. It wasn’t like Barca had blinders from Coutinho and Alba against Liverpool and everyone else did their part but Messi let the team down.
Ever since Ronaldo left Madrid and didn’t have the leadership of Ramos behind him or the greatest midfield in the world led by Modric, he gets bounced earlier than ever in CL and most of the time to the more inferior teams, whereas the only teams knocking Messi out tend to be semi finalists at the very worst or most of the time beating everyone else in CL anyway.
No attacker was going to save that Barca backline from itself. Messi single handedly took a rebuilding Barca squad to almost winning the title in La Liga but of course, moronic mistakes from the defense cost them dearly in several games.
That's a really, really dumb take. Needs no confronting but had to point it out as it devalues a rather ok post otherwise.
soooo much salt in both camps, enough to supply the fast food industry 5 times over!!!!
But what it shows us is that football probably is more than just statistics... football is emotions, football is dreams.. Reducing it to numbers, moneyball style, does it really capture why X is seen as greater than Y? Why everytime X got the ball your heart starts beating faster? Can you really say that Monet is a better artist than Munch? And on what basis? How many stroke used? While colours used? How realistic the paintings are? And that's the issue, you can zero in on any number that justifies your subjective preference, but that doesn't mean that your preference is the one ring to rule them all.
To me football is both science (reductionism) and art (subjective and a gestalt). Football rarely spoke truer to me when I saw a young Ronaldo running at scared defenders, or when I see Messi gliding impossibly past destroyers, or when Maradona kept dodging the timberjacks chasing him with chainsaws ready to chop him down and hurt him. Why must the greatest be just one person, at all time, forever?
But what it shows us is that football probably is more than just statistics... football is emotions, football is dreams.. Reducing it to numbers, moneyball style, does it really capture why X is seen as greater than Y? Why everytime X got the ball your heart starts beating faster? Can you really say that Monet is a better artist than Munch? And on what basis? How many stroke used? While colours used? How realistic the paintings are? And that's the issue, you can zero in on any number that justifies your subjective preference, but that doesn't mean that your preference is the one ring to rule them all.
To me football is both science (reductionism) and art (subjective and a gestalt). Football rarely spoke truer to me when I saw a young Ronaldo running at scared defenders, or when I see Messi gliding impossibly past destroyers, or when Maradona kept dodging the timberjacks chasing him with chainsaws ready to chop him down and hurt him. Why must the greatest be just one person, at all time, forever?
No one has, but here we are though
Am i the only one who's opinion of the two players didnt change at all, neither during the Euro win for Portugal, nor for Argentinas Copa America win?
No you're not.
So you always preferred Messi?
In my point of view (which wont be agreed upon) Messi has improved after winning the Copa. Glad he has done something with the national team now. It's a shame that he is sticking to playing in the La Liga when it's looking at its poorest and staying loyal to Barcelona when this could have been finished as a thread in my eyes if he was able to pull off his numbers and achievements for someone else in a different environment and in a different league.
CR7 was ahead of our time. He knew Messi would win his 7th Ballon d'Or way before. 
Oh I know football is an 11 vs 11 sport, but every team has it's undisputed leader. For us in 1999 it was Roy Keane. He was de facto the 2nd man in charge after Sir Alex. For Real it was Ronaldo/Ramos. For Barca it was Messi/Pique.
Leadership filters from the top down. If in moments of crises your leader shrinks, the whole team suffers. And let's be honest here out of those 2 pairs if you had to pick a combo based on leadership alone which one would you take. We both we know the answer.
There is a difference between playing like garbage and getting dumped out by inferior teams and being in pole position and then throwing it away. You're making it sound like Barca have a back 4 hand picked from League One. It's not about players, it's about mentality.
AC Milan got hammered by Deportivo 4-0 a couple of years back, despite winning the first leg 4-1. The core of their defense that day was made up from Nesta, Maldini, Cafu and Gattuso as a shield in front of them. We also got the 4-4 vs Everton the match that pretty much sealed the title race that season despite us being in control for the most of the match. I also clearly remember that Milan imploded 2 times within a month. The first time was when they were almost eliminated by PSV at the death despite winning comfortably the first leg. And the second time was in that 3-3 CL final vs Scousers all of us would like to forget.
It's in moments like these when teams decide to "relax", when they think that it's in the bag, when they become too arrogant to take the opposition seriously that you need a nutter like Roy Keane to hammer home that you need to give 100% every second until the match is over. Ronaldo has the same drive Keane does minus being a complete nutter.
Remember at the Euro 2016 he was shouting instructions from the touchline along with his coach? That's what a leader looks like. He picks you up when you're down, he encourages you when shit gets tough, he demands perfection with every pass and he doesn't let you become complacent. Messi for all his talent and determination simply doesn't have this and that's why his team for all the talent they have can never come close to Real's consistency.
On paper you are right, but how many of those coaches you listed have accomplished anything since they left Real?These top coaches are: Sir Alex Ferguson, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane, Allegri et al. Even managers like Scolari and Rafa Benitez achieved far more than all of Messi's coaches other than Pep. Your argument is Tito must have been a good coach because he won with Barcelona when his previous trophies were Paraguayan league titles yet you're here saying multiple CL winners Mourinho and Ancelotti who went on to win league titles in elite European leagues after coaching Ronaldo weren't top coaches when they managed Real Madrid
Just look at their respective resumes again and have a little rethink:
Ronaldo's managers' resume without Ronaldo:
World Cup: 1
Champions League: 6
Europa/Cup Winner's Cup: 8
PL: 16
La Liga: 3
Serie A: 8
Bundesliga: 1
Ligue Un: 1
Other European Leagues: 6
South American Leagues: 6
Messi's managers' resume without Messi:
Copa America: 3
PL: 3
Bundesliga: 3
Eredivisie: 3
Libertadores: 1
South American Leagues: 7
There's no argument.
Benitez- manager at Newcastle
Ancelloti- sacked at Bayern for underperforming, managed Everton to an "impressive" midtable finish
Mourinho- do I even have to explain this one? Left Chelsea in the relegation zone, left us and Spurs in a complete mess while stinking up the place.
The fact is all of them were already on a downward spiral. Real simply exposed this since the expectations are through the roof over there. These managers are the equivalent of a Torres or Sanchez. Their impressive in their prime, but once they moved to other clubs they flopped hard.
But on reputation alone, yeah you're right. You know, Kevin Keagan won a couple of PL back in the day. Does that mean that he's still the same manager he was 30 years ago?
See my reply above.
As for Moyes, I stopped talking you seriously right there. Not only did Moyes managed to take the PL champions and finish 7th with them. Should I also remind you how his Real Sociedad stint went? Setien might be bad, but he was no Moyes.
Both players played in the same league for two of the best teams. Interesting the stats during that period are not used more for this argument
Christ, CR fanboys disputing the fact Ronaldo had better managers than Messi. seriously, even for underage CR SofaScore brigade, it's simply too much.
Currently 559 pages off debate on this matter, the fact that it is so keenly debated shows in itself that whatever your personal opinion is that it is mostly irrelevant. Neither of these players are head and shoulders above each other, if they were then we wouldnt have this ridiculous debate running for so long.
Messi vs Ronaldo is very similar to Federer vs Djokovic in my eyes, even more so when you look at the personalities of Ronaldo and Djokovic. Both less talented as the other two, but their drive and determination is second to none in their respective sports. Djokovic may end with more career slams than Federer, as Ronaldo may have more goals than Messi - but I think people will continue to see Federer as the GOAT despite this.
I struggle to think how anyone can argue against Messi being the GOAT if he ends up winning a 7th Ballon d’Or. Unprecedented, and I argue that it won’t be matched for a number and number of decades.
I struggle to think how anyone can argue against Messi being the GOAT if he ends up winning a 7th Ballon d’Or. Unprecedented, and I argue that it won’t be matched for a number and number of decades.
No, it primarily shows that there are very engaged people in both camps, nothing more nothing less
What is the goals per game ratio like between these two. The stats just show the number of goals but not related to the number of games played
Yes, these managers have suffered failures in the decade since they've managed Ronaldo like anyone does but to pretend they weren't top managers when they managed Real Madrid is ridiculous. Jose Mourinho was the elite manager who had just won a treble for Inter, Ancelotti had won the PL and Ligue Un in the two jobs he had prior to managing Ronaldo. It's funny that you made a list of their failures but fail to mention that Mourinho and Ancelotti both won elite leagues after managing Ronaldo, just as SAF and Zidane did. Only Guardiola has won anything after managing Messi, the likes of Setien, Enrique, Valverde etc have won 0 trophies since managing Messi. So not only had Ronaldo's managers had way better records before managing him (World cup, multiple CLs, multiple leagues etc), they also have better records after as well. Once again, you have no argument here...
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