Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Zehner]

That is the only argument that i recognize that the game was harder, it was indeed full of "vinnie Jones" thus would be very hard in that sense, but as far the game itself , it evolved so much. I have zero doubts that a fit Robben would be the best player of 80s or the very least top 3. Not even bring Ronaldo and Messi to the converstation, i think is preposterous, to compare them to old players in any sense.

Could do the same for strikers, a Lewa, Ibra, Suarez, Benzema, they would be the best strikers in the 80s minus maybe Van Basten and is a big maybe,

I think this is offtopic, so it's my last post on this: You can't just assume a modern player would be just as good if he played in the 80s or even earlier. Today's players have huge staffs that are eager to make it as easy as possible for them to focus on football. They have mich bigger coaching teams that have much more knowledge about health, fitness, cognition etc. Also scouting teams that help them identify the weaknesses of opponents, performance diagnostics, video analyses and so forth. They earn so much money that they can buy everything tgey want, employ personal cooks and nutrition experts, have the best doctors possible, can sleep between training sessions, are sought after by physios whenever they need them, ... Pele, di Stefano and so on were pioneers. And relatively speaking, they were farther ahead of their journeyman than Robben. Especially Pele was ridiculously far ahead of everyone else in the game.

There's this saying that goes "if I look tall, it's only because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants" or something like that.

 

[OleksUsykUD]

As good as Messi was in his prime, he needed big time referee help against their CL title win against Chelsea, which was the biggest robbery in football, and will be remember that way.
And even then Messi and his dream Barca, who was described as the best in history, never ever even come close to winning CL twice in a row.


Guess what ? Ronaldo did it not just 2 times, but he did it 3 times in a row. This beats everything Messi has done in his career. Unless Messi managed to repeat that with PSG, which i very much doubt he will.


Also let's not forget he break the record for most International Goals in the history, an achievement that will most probably stand for quite a lot. And not only this, this is one of the biggest achievement any player can make.

 

[DJ_21]

Why would anything that either of them do now - as two players with their best days very, very clearly behind them - have any bearing on who was better?

Well… Ronaldo was and still is better. The point I was making was Ronaldo is couple years older and is having a better season in the premier league then what messi is in the French league. That surely determines who the better player is?

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Ya,no. Even people of Brazil don’t agree with this sentiment with many claiming Garrincha was just as important, in the World Cup wins he was arguably not the best player for Brazil.

Are you seriously trying to compare the level of football played today to back then? Poor Defenders and poor overall quality.

Pele isn’t even the best or most talented Brazilian player of all time. Ronaldo Nazario, Romario...

Maradona was better then Pele the same way both Ronaldo and Messi are superior players and talents.

- Before 1971 Santos played in the Campeonato Paulista which was a regional competition which explains a lot of the 11-0 scoreline vs plumbers. The official Brazilian national league didn't exist yet. Pele scored 470 goals in this "competition".

- When Pele played in the official top flight league of Brazilian football he scored ....34 goals in 84 games

- Fontaine, Jarzinho, and Garrincha and Gerson, didi, tostao were just as important and influential in that Brazil team. Those WC wins would easily happen without Pele which was proved in 62 when he did not play the whole competition after he got injured the first game and Brazil still easily won the world cup.

I can keep going and going. He does not sit at the table with Ronaldo, Messi, and Maradona.

It‘s not worth engaging in such revisionary nonsense. Read any contemporary commentary.

Ballon d’Or gave Pele 7 retrospective awards, says it all. Ask anyone in that era. Pele was the best of his time and then some. Nobody credible disputes this.

Saying other players were better than Pele in the 1960s would be like saying Luis Suarez was better than Cristiano Ronaldo. Suarez is great but Ronaldo is another level. Same applies to all his contemporaries.

As for the Garrincha comparison, Pele was clearly Brazil’s best player going into 1962 World Cup and played well in the first match and then got injured. Nobody serious in their football knowledge that isn’t trying to make a contrarian point would say Garrincha was a better player than Pele. Again it would be like saying Neymar was better than Messi or something, as great as Garrincha was.

Meanwhile Rui Costa is a better player than Cristiano Ronaldo deserves as much discussion as Romario being better than Pele.

 

[IhabX7]

So the people bashing Ronaldo in his performance thread are downplaying his abilities and achievements in here, interesting. I thought you said they were criticizing the signing and form, @Pogue Mahone. Not that you’re fooling anyone mind you.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So the people bashing Ronaldo in his performance thread are downplaying his abilities and achievements in here, interesting. I thought you said they were criticizing the signing and form, @Pogue Mahone. Not that you’re fooling anyone mind you.

Why are you tagging me into this thread, you weirdo?

 

[kafta]

i think messi, talent wise is clearly the best i've seen. But what i think helps ronaldo is his mental strength, and his ability to go outside his comfort zone and succeed. He has the bigger drive, and this is why he is still going, and probably believes that he is still the best in the world and the greatest of all time. Ronaldo went to Serie A at almost the same age messi went to ligue A, and the difference in performance between the 2 has been huge.

Both are special, but being a united fan, im impartial and prefer ronaldo.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Personally I couldn't possibly consider Cristiano Ronaldo to be a better player than Ronaldinho was just because he played at a higher level for longer. Both at their best, Ronaldo just was not as good, and Ronaldinho was in his prime at Barcelona for 3 and a half/ four years which is a perfectly reasonable period of peak form. The way people talk about how brief his best was, you would think he only put it all together for one season or for a couple of half seasons over his career.

Well Ronaldinho peak was short, in the way that he was no longer among best by the age of 27. He has a few great seasons in Barca though, but since then has his steep decline sooner than most players.

And Ronaldo was definitely better during his peak for me. Ronaldinho was indeed magical and I enjoyed watching him more than anyone (including Messi), but he is not as deadly/unstoppable as Ronaldo. He is pure artist on the field and sheer joy to watch on the pitch, but just not anywhere nearly as effective or impactful.

 

[Bebestation]

There is ultimately guys who fall in love over a women purely for their looks. It makes them fall on their knees at what they see with their eyes. A women with nothing but the DNA of their mum and dad merging in to the next generation. It's beauty. They believe there is nothing like them in this world when in reality beauty is just held in the eyes of the beholder. This is like the people here who said they would choose Ronaldinho over Ronaldo.

Then there's the guy who does value the looks of a player but also their mentality. They realise that looks is not always permanent. That going for a partner with no mental ability is just going to leave you by yourself in times of need (as seen in the CL post Xavi/Iniesta). That this mentally strong partner is able to help you anywhere and everywhere the problems come at you from - be it where you live in Spain, England or Italy. That not only are they able to perform anywhere at any time, that they are able to be consistent to the point that they are breaking records on the way too.

 

[sherrinford]

Because their careers aren’t over and Messi struggling doesn’t mean you should halt it here because it’s unflattering to Messi?
Ronaldo scored 36 goals last year and is on course for what? Around 25 if he finishes the season strong this season? Maybe we are spoiled by 50 goals a season madness but those numbers are nothing to scoff at

Ronaldo could retire tomorrow and Messi rediscover his form from last season then carry on for a further half decade, and it wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) have any bearing on how great either player is perceived to have been. The better player is not determined by how long one can go on. Ronaldo is a shadow of his former self - what he does this season and beyond doesn't matter. Unless he can match or exceed his own best work, nothing he does now is relevant to how 'good' a player Cristiano Ronaldo was or how he compares to Messi and the same is true of the Argentine.

Well… Ronaldo was and still is better. The point I was making was Ronaldo is couple years older and is having a better season in the premier league then what messi is in the French league. That surely determines who the better player is?

Is currently or overall?

Currently, possibly. Messi would appear to be performing less adequately against largely lower quality opposition. It may be too early to completely disregard his performances last season though where he was better than Ronaldo, as it is not exactly unheard of for players to have a poor season by their standards before returning to a previously higher level.

Overall, no. Of course not. The better player is surely not determined by which of the two, both far from their best in the winter of their careers, is having the stronger season.

 

[cyberman]

Ronaldo could retire tomorrow and Messi rediscover his form from last season then carry on for a further half decade, and it wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) have any bearing on how great either player is perceived to have been. The better player is not determined by how long one can go on. Ronaldo is a shadow of his former self - what he does this season and beyond doesn't matter. Unless he can match or exceed his own best work, nothing he does now is relevant to how 'good' a player Cristiano Ronaldo was or how he compares to Messi and the same is true of the Argentine.



Is currently or overall?

Currently, possibly. Messi would appear to be performing less adequately against largely lower quality opposition. It may be too early to completely disregard his performances last season though where he was better than Ronaldo, as it is not exactly unheard of for players to have a poor season by their standards before returning to a previously higher level.

Overall, no. Of course not. The better player is surely not determined by which of the two, both far from their best in the winter of their careers, is having the stronger season.

I’ll disagree with this. I dont think Messi has been Messi for a long time yet when Ronaldo was 33 there was no let’s stop this here talk. When Messi slips then it’s let’s call the whole thing off? Why does last season have legitimacy if this year doesn’t? Because he’s playing poorly?
This does affect Messis legacy. Just a few months ago I was told how great the Balon Dor winner was yet he is underachieving so badly that failing the PSG challenge is hidden behind his age. Ronaldo was winning CLs at Messi current age, still at the top of the pile.
Ronaldo may not be the elite of the elite anymore but he is the second top scorer in the best league in the world with a goal a game for us in CL. Being able to adapt and be in the pack below the world class strikers is absolutely worthy of discussion.

 

[DJ_21]

I’ll disagree with this. I dont think Messi has been Messi for a long time yet when Ronaldo was 33 there was no let’s stop this here talk. When Messi slips then it’s let’s call the whole thing off? Why does last season have legitimacy if this year doesn’t? Because he’s playing poorly?
This does affect Messis legacy. Just a few months ago I was told how great the Balon Dor winner was yet he is underachieving so badly that failing the PSG challenge is hidden behind his age. Ronaldo was winning CLs at Messi current age, still at the top of the pile.
Ronaldo may not be the elite of the elite anymore but he is the second top scorer in the best league in the world with a goal a game for us in CL. Being able to adapt and be in the pack below the world class strikers is absolutely worthy of discussion.

Spot on. 100%

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I’ll disagree with this. I dont think Messi has been Messi for a long time yet when Ronaldo was 33 there was no let’s stop this here talk. When Messi slips then it’s let’s call the whole thing off? Why does last season have legitimacy if this year doesn’t? Because he’s playing poorly?
This does affect Messis legacy. Just a few months ago I was told how great the Balon Dor winner was yet he is underachieving so badly that failing the PSG challenge is hidden behind his age. Ronaldo was winning CLs at Messi current age, still at the top of the pile.
Ronaldo may not be the elite of the elite anymore but he is the second top scorer in the best league in the world with a goal a game for us in CL. Being able to adapt and be in the pack below the world class strikers is absolutely worthy of discussion.

Messi is 34 now, when Ronaldo was 34 he went out in the CL to Ajax, and hasn't played a CL quarter-final since. He last won the Ballon d'Or in 2017 when he was 32, so he hasn't been top of the pile. When Messi was 33, he had a season great enough to win the Ballon d'Or, even if I thought Lewandowski deserved it.

Also Messi has played almost 1,000 career games and had a way longer elite career than basically any other GOAT-level forward apart from Ronaldo. Ronaldo's longevity is definitely one of his greatest strengths, but it's not a Messi weakness even if he gets even worse from now on.

 

[MrEleson]

Messi is 34 now, when Ronaldo was 34 he went out in the CL to Ajax, and hasn't played a CL quarter-final since. He last won the Ballon d'Or in 2017 when he was 32, so he hasn't been top of the pile. When Messi was 33, he had a season great enough to win the Ballon d'Or, even if I thought Lewandowski deserved it.

Also Messi has played almost 1,000 career games and had a way longer elite career than basically any other GOAT-level forward apart from Ronaldo. Ronaldo's longevity is definitely one of his greatest strengths, but it's not a Messi weakness even if he gets even worse from now on.

Only because of the quality of his teammates. He was constantly let down in the competition with the exception of last season against Porto where he was poor for the first time in 3 years for Juve in a KO tie. In the 18/19 season he literally scored all of the team’s goals in the KO rounds and was generally excellent even in the games against Ajax. There’s nothing more he could have done with the likes of De Sciglio at the back and Dybala out injured as usual in an important game. Similar thing happened the following year against Lyon when he almost single-handedly brought them back from the dead.
Also, the following season at 35 years old; he scored 31 league goals in 33 games and 37 in all competitions (a historic record for Juve) and again last season, he scored 29 league goals and 36 in all competitions at 36 years old.

I really can’t see level getting close to that level over the next 2 seasons.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Messi is 34 now, when Ronaldo was 34 he went out in the CL to Ajax, and hasn't played a CL quarter-final since. He last won the Ballon d'Or in 2017 when he was 32, so he hasn't been top of the pile. When Messi was 33, he had a season great enough to win the Ballon d'Or, even if I thought Lewandowski deserved it.

Also Messi has played almost 1,000 career games and had a way longer elite career than basically any other GOAT-level forward apart from Ronaldo. Ronaldo's longevity is definitely one of his greatest strengths, but it's not a Messi weakness even if he gets even worse from now on.

To be fair, Ronaldo fully deserved to win Ballon D'or in 2018 when he was 33, if not for Modric who suddenly shines in some WC group games. He also finished 3rd in 2019 at age 34, and he was 2nd in FIFA player of year award in 2020 at age 35 (best individual award in 2020, when Ballon D'or is cancelled that year). So in truth, he hasn't been top of the pile since around last year, when he was 36. (still managed to win top goalscorer awards in Euro and Serie A though)

at 33: 2nd in Ballon D'or, won CL as top scorer/best player
at 34: 3rd in Ballon D'or
at 35: 2nd in FIFA award (Ballon D'or was cancelled)
at 36: no longer top of the pile, but still top scorer in Euro and Serie A, and broke multiple all time records.

 

[OneWhoKnocks]

Loved Ronaldo's hatrick the other day! Probably his best performance since he came back. However, despite his goals he's been fairly crummy far more often than not. Tottenham felt more like a one off as he's still been pretty shocking for the past few months. Hopefully he saves sme of that for later today.

As for PSG, their defense let them down. Messi and Neymar were mediocre at best, but it's weird how they're getting crap (and to an extent, I understand) while Marquinhos and Donna single handedly lost them the tie.

Hopefully Ronaldo adds another comeback to his CL record. It was sad seeing how far both these players have declined so any good performance feels like it should be cherished a lot more than we normally would.

 

[OneWhoKnocks]

Only because of the quality of his teammates. He was constantly let down in the competition with the exception of last season against Porto where he was poor for the first time in 3 years for Juve in a KO tie. In the 18/19 season he literally scored all of the team’s goals in the KO rounds and was generally excellent even in the games against Ajax. There’s nothing more he could have done with the likes of De Sciglio at the back and Dybala out injured as usual in an important game. Similar thing happened the following year against Lyon when he almost single-handedly brought them back from the dead.
Also, the following season at 35 years old; he scored 31 league goals in 33 games and 37 in all competitions (a historic record for Juve) and again last season, he scored 29 league goals and 36 in all competitions at 36 years old.

I really can’t see level getting close to that level over the next 2 seasons.

In fairness Messi was let down by his teammates a lot in CL. 2019 being a big example. Bayern and Roma he was bad, but Messi has had to deal with a lot more dysfunction and now that Ronaldo has had to deal with it, we can see the trophies dry up as well. Messi wasn't good in the Madrid tie, but the defense screwed them over far more than the attackers did.

 

[sukhy]

To be fair, Ronaldo fully deserved to win Ballon D'or in 2018 when he was 33, if not for Modric who suddenly shines in some WC group games.

That proves a lot of points in regards to Ronaldo's previous Ballon D'Or wins too. Perez used his power to get Modric that Ballon d'or, no chance he deserved it, same as Ronaldo in 2013.

 

[SportingCP96]

Also find it funny when people say Ronaldo is just goals when he has a Total of 230 career assists compared to Messi who is at 325 and Messi chooses to create because it’s part of his play style. Ronaldo does not yet he is still close. Ronaldo also leads the CL in assist and also goals all time. Ronaldo has always been a brilliant passer and crosser of the ball. However people only like to remember football after 2016.



S tier dribbler. To be that fast and agile while being over 6 feet tall is not easy.



Alright enough of this thread for a bit I’ll see your crazy bastards later, hugs and kisses from your favorite chop

 

[Rojow]

That proves a lot of points in regards to Ronaldo's previous Ballon D'Or wins too. Perez used his power to get Modric that Ballon d'or, no chance he deserved it, same as Ronaldo in 2013.

You said it all. But hey, let's not talk about 2013. All the hype was mostly because of that match against Sweden.

Some guys here talk like they totally saw and knew everything of players in the 60s and 70s and are not even 25. The audacity.

 

[Someone]

Never felt that there was ever an ultimate goat in football. I've never enjoyed watching anyone play as much as I did with Ronaldinho, just out of this world. Ronaldo and Messi are both great in their own way, Messi is technically better and it's more enjoyable to watch him than Ronaldo, he also creates more chances for his team and all in all the better team player, while Ronaldo is more of a relentless goal scoring machine with better mentality and determination. Ronaldo challenged himself during his career much more than Messi, and will beat him easily in terms of longevity.

Still if you give me a magic wand to bring a player back in his prime to play for united, I'd pick Ronaldinho and maybe luiz ronaldo over Messi and Ronaldo any time. I'm into football to enjoy it not for the stats.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

To be fair, Ronaldo fully deserved to win Ballon D'or in 2018 when he was 33, if not for Modric who suddenly shines in some WC group games. He also finished 3rd in 2019 at age 34, and he was 2nd in FIFA player of year award in 2020 at age 35 (best individual award in 2020, when Ballon D'or is cancelled that year). So in truth, he hasn't been top of the pile since around last year, when he was 36. (still managed to win top goalscorer awards in Euro and Serie A though)

at 33: 2nd in Ballon D'or, won CL as top scorer/best player
at 34: 3rd in Ballon D'or
at 35: 2nd in FIFA award (Ballon D'or was cancelled)
at 36: no longer top of the pile, but still top scorer in Euro and Serie A, and broke multiple all time records.

I think Modric deserved the Ballon d’Or and is one of the best midfielders of his generation (ever) and is still deciding games if you look at last week. Ronaldo at that point was probably the best forward in the world. Since 2019, Lewandowski has been the best forward in the world, followed by Messi and Ronaldo has been somewhere with Mbappé, Haaland, Salah range, and since 2021 dropping further again. Also if we are going to use individual award as the signifier then Messi is the current Ballon d’Or holder.

 

[RedRonaldo]

That proves a lot of points in regards to Ronaldo's previous Ballon D'Or wins too. Perez used his power to get Modric that Ballon d'or, no chance he deserved it, same as Ronaldo in 2013.

To be honest, Individually speaking, Ronaldo has outshined Ribery by far in 2013. If Ribery manage to do abit better individually, he would surely have a stronger case, but unfortunately he didn't. Its similar to our 1999 treble year, none of our players manage to win Ballon D'or, despite majority of our player being brilliant. But don't get me wrong, Ribery is brilliant team player that year, but just nowhere near as outstanding individual.

Ronaldo in 2013:
Club: 55 goals in 55 games
Country: 10 goals in 9 games
Overall: 65 goals in 64 games

Ribery in 2013:
Club:11 goals in 44 games (won treble)
Country: 5 goals in 11 games
Overall: 16 goals in 55 games.

You can see that's a huge huge difference on individual level, to be very honest, so its really hard to hand it to Ribery, even they wanted to. Truth is, Bayern success was based more on their collective team effort, but less from individual brilliance. Its like us in 1999.

Whereas in 2018, Ronaldo has totally outshined Modric throughout the year, but maybe except WC, because Modric reach the final and WC need a hero.

Ronaldo in 2018:
league: 7.94 avg rating
CL: 8.12 avg rating (won CL)
WC: 7.73 avg rating (last 16)

Modric in 2018
league: 7.29 avg rating
CL: 7.02 avg rating (won CL)
WC: 7.48 avg rating (finalist)

So both year Ronaldo has very strong case to win it, but in the end he only won it in 2013 but didn't win it in 2018. That's reality, but doesn't mean he doesn't deserve winning either or both.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I think Modric deserved the Ballon d’Or and is one of the best midfielders of his generation (ever) and is still deciding games if you look at last week. Ronaldo at that point was probably the best forward in the world. Since 2019, Lewandowski has been the best forward in the world, followed by Messi and Ronaldo has been somewhere with Mbappé, Haaland, Salah range, and since 2021 dropping further again. Also if we are going to use individual award as the signifier then Messi is the current Ballon d’Or holder.

Modric has many below average game too, if you follow through Madrid games more, you will see. And I still remembered very clearly, Real Madrid midfield with Modric in it, always got outplayed by lesser opponents alot throughout season 2017-2018, even though they won CL in the end with Modric having a good game in final ( I watched all their games that year, so I assure you this as a fact, and while his low avg rating also further proves this).

Sure he is still capable of performing some good games from time to time, but lets be fair, Ronaldo at 37 also capable of world class performance, if you look at last game.

And no, I am not using individual awards as signifier here, my original post are in response someone who claimed Ronaldo is no longer at the top since 2017, which isn't true.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

are you from Portugal?

Are you a bitter as feck Juve fan?

 

[Rojow]

To be honest, Individually speaking, Ronaldo has outshined Ribery by far in 2013. If Ribery manage to do abit better individually, he would surely have a stronger case, but unfortunately he didn't. Its similar to our 1999 treble year, none of our players manage to win Ballon D'or, despite majority of our player being brilliant. But don't get me wrong, Ribery is brilliant team player that year, but just nowhere near as outstanding individual.

Ronaldo in 2013:
Club: 55 goals in 55 games
Country: 10 goals in 9 games
Overall: 65 goals in 64 games

Ribery in 2013:
Club:11 goals in 44 games (won treble)
Country: 5 goals in 11 games
Overall: 16 goals in 55 games.

You can see that's a huge huge difference on individual level, to be very honest, so its really hard to hand it to Ribery, even they wanted to. Truth is, Bayern success was based more on their collective team effort, but less from individual brilliance. Its like us in 1999.

Whereas in 2018, Ronaldo has totally outshined Modric throughout the year, but maybe except WC, because Modric reach the final and WC need a hero.

Ronaldo in 2018:
league: 7.94 avg rating
CL: 8.12 avg rating (won CL)
WC: 7.73 avg rating (last 16)

Modric in 2018
league: 7.29 avg rating
CL: 7.02 avg rating (won CL)
WC: 7.48 avg rating (finalist)

So both year Ronaldo has very strong case to win it, but in the end he only won it in 2013 but didn't win it in 2018. That's reality, but doesn't mean he doesn't deserve winning either or both.

Now does individual performance count? Didn't trophies or UCLs also count? I do not understand. Messi had a better ratings in 2018 both in World Cup and domestic League. Ronaldo in last Real Madrid UCL didn't show on semis nor final.

 

[badname]

I think this is offtopic, so it's my last post on this: You can't just assume a modern player would be just as good if he played in the 80s or even earlier. Today's players have huge staffs that are eager to make it as easy as possible for them to focus on football. They have mich bigger coaching teams that have much more knowledge about health, fitness, cognition etc. Also scouting teams that help them identify the weaknesses of opponents, performance diagnostics, video analyses and so forth. They earn so much money that they can buy everything tgey want, employ personal cooks and nutrition experts, have the best doctors possible, can sleep between training sessions, are sought after by physios whenever they need them, ... Pele, di Stefano and so on were pioneers. And relatively speaking, they were farther ahead of their journeyman than Robben. Especially Pele was ridiculously far ahead of everyone else in the game.

There's this saying that goes "if I look tall, it's only because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants" or something like that.

All of that also serves for the opposition, today the last team in a good championship is full of professional players earning well and having good conditions. Total of the opposite in 80s or earlier. Making it much harder for a great player to stand themselves. No more of having a full of space and time to do fancy things like the number 10s before.

I dont think this is off topic and there are people saying Ronaldo is not technical and a bunch of older players are , when he was to dominate the ball and do things much more quicker and faster then old age. Atleast technique for me is doing things well under pressure and in split of seconds. A guy like Robben who is a absolute physical specimen when fit and really technical, would just making a new hole in everyone in that age. Much less Ronaldo and Messi.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Now does individual performance count? Didn't trophies or UCLs also count? I do not understand. Messi had a better ratings in 2018 both in World Cup and domestic League. Ronaldo in last Real Madrid UCL didn't show on semis nor final.

Of course they all count. But it has to be competitive/comparable. Ronaldo vs Messi individual stats/impact/performance are at least competitive/comparable in 2018, but Ronaldo won the CL as best player so he has the extra edge.

By the way Modric hasn’t really won anything in 2018 as “best player”. He only ranked 11th in avg rating in his own team, he wasn’t even top 10 player in his own team when they won CL. He loss the WC as best player (mainly in group stage) though. That’s all he have, his overall individual performance was rather average over the year, except a few good games here and there, so he didn’t deserve to win it in my honest opinion. But he has a good narrative in WC, as WC needs a hero and he leads his team to final for the very first time. So there he won it.

Ronaldo vs Ribery individual stats/impact/performance wasn’t competitive/comparable at all, hence Ribery only finished 3rd that year despite having more successful season with his team than the other two.

Is it that hard to comprehend? Everything count. If Ribery has a more respectful individual stats in 2013, he might have won it. Doesn’t really have to match Ronaldo’s 55-65 goals, maybe around 30-40 would be close enough, but definitely not just 11-16, it’s simply not good enough for Ballon D’or, especially they are playing in same position afterall (wing forward). Afterall they are competing for best individual award, it must at least looks “comparable” from individual aspect.

 

[genardk]

Of course they all count. But it has to be competitive/comparable. Ronaldo vs Messi individual stats/impact/performance are at least competitive/comparable in 2018, but Ronaldo won the CL as best player so he has the extra edge.

Ronaldo vs Ribery individual stats/impact/performance wasn’t competitive/comparable at all, hence Ribery only finished 3rd that year despite having more successful season with his team than the other two.

Is it that hard to comprehend? Everything count. If Ribery has a more respectful individual stats in 2013, he might have won it. Doesn’t really have to match Ronaldo’s 55-65 goals, maybe around 30-40 would be close enough, but definitely not just 11-16. Afterall they are competing for best individual award, it must at least looks “comparable”.

This was the most controversial Ballon D'or voting ever where the voting deadline has been extended after Ronaldo's hat-trick against Sweden in WC playoffs.
Ribery was a favorite prior. Also, I do not remember a Ballon D'or winner without a single cup in recent history.

" You do not need to be a genius to see that this decision to extend the voting period for the FIFA Ballon d’Or benefits CR7.”
www.espn.com/soccer/news/story/_/id/1621866/fifa-extend-ballon-dor-voting-deadline-%E2%80%93-report

" Fifa has extended the Ballon d'Or voting deadline, improving Cristiano Ronaldo's chances of winning after his superb performance for Portugal in the World Cup play-off success. "
www.theguardian.com/football/2013/nov/20/cristiano-ronaldo-fifa-ballon-dor

 

[OleksUsykUD]

Golden Ball shouldn't be given for who scored the most goals. There is plenty of awards for who scored most goals at x tournament. And while it's individual awards, unless you win something big(at the very least strong league or CL), or at least make a great run, you shouldn't even be in the consideration for it.


Ronaldo may have been given the Golden Ball in 2013, but Robben from example was injured for long period, and Ribery didn't actually have a great run, and you cannot say who was their best player, alone best in the world.


It was more of a team effort. Maybe they should give it to Neuer that year. And i wouldn't have a problem with Ronaldo not winning it, simply cause he won nothing that year.


Anyway but the one they gifted Modric, was a truly screwing him up. Exactly at that time, the woman decide to press charges again for a case that was old and dead, and it was just nonsense accusation in the right moment so they can screw him up and get infront of Messi.


And as far as Messi goes, there is none other players in the history with more gifted Golden Ball's than this guy.


2010 - the big screwjob. There is not a single other player that deserve the Golden Ball more than Sneijder did. He was the leader of Inter, have an insane season winning treble + Final at the World Cup where he was the best player for Netherland by far. He also have a great final managed to give Robben an insane through pass to lead him 1 on 1 with the GK, but Robben manage to screw them. Anyone who can even try to argue this was the biggest screwjob in the history should obviously is highly biased person.



2012 he won nothing, was totally invisible in the most important match against Chelsea, and even more he screw Barcelona missed a super important penalty, they were 11 against 10 and they still lost. He also lost the title in La Liga to Ronaldo, who decided the league with his goals in that derby. You don't deserve Golden Ball for your failures. Again for scoring X goals there is different awards, and that should not say who the best player in the world is.


2019 - obviously he get trashed by Liverpool, and Virgil van Dijk was an absolutely wall that season and having a super incredible season both in Premier League and in the CL. On top of that they reached the CL final previous season as well. On top of that, that was Liverpool first CL title since 2005, which was a huge achievement. Also he had an insane start to the next season, which we all know is taken into the consideration, cause the Golden Ball is given for the whole year span. And Messi if i'm not wrong has very bad start to the season. Clear as a day robbery, again in favor in Messi.


2021 - wins nothing in La Liga, get trashed big time in the CL by PSG, lost in the 1/16 stage, and he shouldn't even be in the top 5. And Messi fans loves to talk about individual performance, still Lewandowski trashed him big time. Not to mention he was and is still a complete trash in PSG. Which would have hurt anyone, but not and him. He won it based on Coca Cola Cup that has no qualification, that 5 teams out of 6 gets out of the group stage(yeah laughable), and you had to win just 3 matches to win the whole Coca Cola Cup that has absolutely pathetic rules in which year is held and so. Just look at this, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2021 .... Their logic was, we will make it every year or 2, unless Mesi won the CUP, so he can have some International Copa Cup into his record.


Sorry but i can't take that Cup seriously. Also a tournament that more than 70% of the best players can't participate shouldn't be taken into any consideration. Also a potato cup with zero rules where your main rivals ain't competing at, shouldn't be even held as a standard. Not to mention in the Knockout phase(just 3 matches potato) he got 1 goal that was against Cameron in the 93 minute, when the result was 2-0 for Argentina. And he was invisible in the final once again.


The main standard should be the Club Teams. As you can't choose your National team. Euro or World Cup should be a bonus for what you did in the season. But finishing 3rd and getting trashed in the CL, should automatically put you out of any conversation whatsoever.


So Messi fans should be very quiet when they talk about Ronaldo gifted Golden Ball, as for Ronaldo you can make a case for 2013, but then he was also 100% robbed of at least 1. Where Messi was gifted exactly 4, where he deserve none of them.

 

[RedRonaldo]

This was the most controversial Ballon D'or voting ever where the voting deadline has been extended after Ronaldo's hat-trick against Sweden in WC playoffs.
Ribery was a favorite prior. Also, I do not remember a Ballon D'or winner without a single cup in recent history.

" You do not need to be a genius to see that this decision to extend the voting period for the FIFA Ballon d’Or benefits CR7.”
www.espn.com/soccer/news/story/_/id/1621866/fifa-extend-ballon-dor-voting-deadline-%E2%80%93-report

" Fifa has extended the Ballon d'Or voting deadline, improving Cristiano Ronaldo's chances of winning after his superb performance for Portugal in the World Cup play-off success. "
www.theguardian.com/football/2013/nov/20/cristiano-ronaldo-fifa-ballon-dor

Well, lets just say even Ronaldo didn't win it, it won't be Ribery winning it anyway. Messi finished 2nd that year above Ribery.

 

[Bebestation]

Has any player showed such a downward ability spiral in literally 3 - 8 months after winning Balon'dor's and copa America?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Also, I do not remember a Ballon D'or winner without a single cup in recent history.

Messi won in 2012 almost entirely because of his goalscoring record; the only thing Barcelona won was the Copa del Rey.

 

[OneWhoKnocks]

Has any player showed such a downward ability spiral in literally 3 - 8 months after winning Balon'dor's and copa America?

Kaka maybe? Did modric have a dip in 2019? Not as sharp as Messi’s but it does seem Messi was at least the second best scorer in CL for psg but his league play has been shocking

Messi won in 2012 almost entirely because of his goalscoring record; the only thing Barcelona won was the Copa del Rey.

In fairness Copa del Rey is much better than no trophy at all. And didn’t Messi get 90+ goals that season? That was the most impressive individual record of the decade for me.

 

[sherrinford]

Well Ronaldinho peak was short, in the way that he was no longer among best by the age of 27. He has a few great seasons in Barca though, but since then has his steep decline sooner than most players.

And Ronaldo was definitely better during his peak for me. Ronaldinho was indeed magical and I enjoyed watching him more than anyone (including Messi), but he is not as deadly/unstoppable as Ronaldo. He is pure artist on the field and sheer joy to watch on the pitch, but just not anywhere nearly as effective or impactful.

Ronaldinho peaked early, certainly, but a sustained 3-4 year period of peak performance is nothing to scoff at really.

Personally, I feel he was more effective and impactful overall than Ronaldo at his best, though they impacted games in different ways so there's not really a direct comparison to be made there.

I’ll disagree with this. I dont think Messi has been Messi for a long time yet when Ronaldo was 33 there was no let’s stop this here talk. When Messi slips then it’s let’s call the whole thing off? Why does last season have legitimacy if this year doesn’t? Because he’s playing poorly?
This does affect Messis legacy. Just a few months ago I was told how great the Balon Dor winner was yet he is underachieving so badly that failing the PSG challenge is hidden behind his age. Ronaldo was winning CLs at Messi current age, still at the top of the pile.
Ronaldo may not be the elite of the elite anymore but he is the second top scorer in the best league in the world with a goal a game for us in CL. Being able to adapt and be in the pack below the world class strikers is absolutely worthy of discussion.

Stop what here? What's the relevance of Ronaldo at 33? Call what off? Legitimacy in what sense?

Last season could be taken into account when gauging Messi's current level, as he has came into a new team after a break between seasons and doesn't look the same player. Him playing poorly this season does not necessarily mean he is incapable of returning to last season's level.

When talking about how good Messi is in an all-time context, however, why would last season be relevant in any way? Messi was still at least among the best players in the world, but not as good as he had previously been. As you put it - Messi wasn't Messi. You say essentially the same thing about Ronaldo - not the elite of the elite anymore. When we talk about these players being among the best to have ever played, we certainly aren't talking about the older, physically declined versions of themselves are we? Being able to adapt and put in impressive performances for your age is worthy of discussion generally, but not in any conversation about where they stand historically.

 

[Bebestation]

Ronaldinho was a monster - but to me he was the last great player of the "individualistic styled football" which then got replaced to the more team oriented tactics we see now.

Ronaldinho got put out by Pep for that reason, to create the best flowing balances team of all time.

 

[genardk]

Messi won in 2012 almost entirely because of his goalscoring record; the only thing Barcelona won was the Copa del Rey.

Yes, basically the FA Cup of Spain, the top league in Europe at that time, which is much better than winning nothing.
His goal scoring record in 2012 is not a just large random number, it is an all time record that nobody came close so far.

 

[genardk]

I’ll disagree with this. I dont think Messi has been Messi for a long time yet when Ronaldo was 33 there was no let’s stop this here talk. When Messi slips then it’s let’s call the whole thing off? Why does last season have legitimacy if this year doesn’t? Because he’s playing poorly?
This does affect Messis legacy. Just a few months ago I was told how great the Balon Dor winner was yet he is underachieving so badly that failing the PSG challenge is hidden behind his age. Ronaldo was winning CLs at Messi current age, still at the top of the pile.
Ronaldo may not be the elite of the elite anymore but he is the second top scorer in the best league in the world with a goal a game for us in CL. Being able to adapt and be in the pack below the world class strikers is absolutely worthy of discussion.

How does the fact that the last time Ronaldo won Golden Shoe was back in 2015, Ballon D'or in 2017, Pichichi in 2015 affect his legacy? Messi won Golden Shoe in 2017-2018-2019 and Ballon D'or in 2019-2021.

How does the fact that the one & only time Ronaldo was a goal+assist leader was in 2014 affect his legacy? Messi was the ultimate leader until 2020.

How does the fact that Messi won 5 Pichichis (La Liga top scorer) in a row as a playmaker between 2016-2021 when Ronaldo the great goal scorer won only "1" league top scorer in the last 7 years (only in Serie A in 2021) affect his legacy?

Do these things also count? or only hat-tricks against PL 7th Tottenham after a run of 10-11 poor games?

 

[Camara]

How does the fact that the last time Ronaldo won Golden Shoe was back in 2015, Ballon D'or in 2017, Pichichi in 2015 affect his legacy? Messi won Golden Shoe in 2017-2018-2019 and Ballon D'or in 2019-2021.

How does the fact that the one & only time Ronaldo was a goal+assist leader was in 2014 affect his legacy? Messi was the ultimate leader until 2020.

How does the fact that Messi won 5 Pichichis (La Liga top scorer) in a row as a playmaker between 2016-2021 when Ronaldo the great goal scorer won only "1" league top scorer in the last 7 years (only in Serie A in 2021) affect his legacy?

Do these things also count? or only hat-tricks against PL 7th Tottenham after a run of 10-11 poor games?

In the 9 years they coincided in Spain Messi was the pichichi 5 times and Ronaldo 4, however in the last year (17/18) Messi was pichichi but Ronaldo had better goal ratio, he missed 9 league games that season.
Then I don't know how you compare across different leagues but in the 3 years he was in Juventus Messi scored more than him in the 1st and 3rd season but in the 3rd again Ronaldo had a better goal ratio because Messi played more games.
The Golden Shoe is dependent on other leagues.

Tottenham in isolation means nothing of course but he is the 2nd best scorer of the Premier League (with less games played than others around his position) so that means he is doing something well?

 

[SportingCP96]

In the 9 years they coincided in Spain Messi was the pichichi 5 times and Ronaldo 4, however in the last year (17/18) Messi was pichichi but Ronaldo had better goal ratio, he missed 9 league games that season.
Then I don't know how you compare across different leagues but in the 3 years he was in Juventus Messi scored more than him in the 1st and 3rd season but in the 3rd again Ronaldo had a better goal ratio because Messi played more games.
The Golden Shoe is dependent on other leagues.

Tottenham in isolation means nothing of course but he is the 2nd best scorer of the Premier League (with less games played than others around his position) so that means he is doing something well?

Don’t even bother with that guy, his debates make no sense and he ignores the things you say to fit his agenda, I already stopped wasting my time.