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2016-17 Performances


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I've stated this before and will continue to state it. Carrick has been one of the most underrated players in the Prem over recent years.

Almost everybody says this, we say it to the extent that it becomes a self defeating statement. He can't be underrated anymore if everybody knows he's underrated.

The biggest problem is the gap between Carrick and his current replacement i.e. Fellaini.

As soon as we get a decent replacement I think lots of posters will realise that Carrick has in fact become a little overrated. This isn't to say I don't think he's done well. He's just not the irreplaceable force some now believe him to be.
 
Almost everybody says this, we say it to the extent that it becomes a self defeating statement. He can't be underrated anymore if everybody knows he's underrated.

The biggest problem is the gap between Carrick and his current replacement i.e. Fellaini.

As soon as we get a decent replacement I think lots of posters will realise that Carrick has in fact become a little overrated. This isn't to say I don't think he's done well. He's just not the irreplaceable force some now believe him to be.

To be fair, we have pumped about £170m into the middle since 2013 and struggled to be functional without him.

It's not a coincidence that Pogba and Herrera have both been so much better when he's slotted into the team.

Though I agree, the underrated thing is overdone.
 
To be fair, we have pumped about £170m into the middle since 2013 and struggled to be functional without him.

It's not a coincidence that Pogba and Herrera have both been so much better when he's slotted into the team.

Though I agree, the underrated thing is overdone.

We could spend another £500 million but if we keep buying DM's who can't pass or in fact aren't a DM at all, he'll still be needed. That says more about our transfer targets than anything.

It isn't a coincidence Pogba and Herrera look better, it's down to Carricks introduction, but I think that improvement would have happened with any decent DM played behind them.
 
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Think Carrick has actually been below par the last couple of games but shows us his importance that it allows the team to play better. He is the glue to our team and I'm sure Jose will recognise this and find make his replacement a top requirement.
 
It's not a coincidence that Pogba and Herrera have both been so much better when he's slotted into the team.

I think a lot of people don't realise, just having that third man in midfield is important to ANY midfielder in ANY team playing in ANY league today. Carrick's quality is not the sole reason why Herrera and Pogba are playing well, imo it's just simply having an extra man there. I'm not underrating Carrick because at the same time, this is a criticism to Herrera and Pogba too that the reason why they are able to function so well together, aside from all all technically gifted and having high game intelligence, it's having that extra body congesting the centre.

It's why I maintain, we can 'get' away with having a Schneiderlin/energy guy behind Herrera + Pogba instead of Carrick for certain games/going forward.

This might sound crazy but yes even Fellani would be able to do a job behind that duo. We're not gonna get the same dynamic ala deep passing but I honestly don't think Carrick is 'dictating' as much as people think, as simply being an intelligent reader at the back positionally with good passing ability. I.e Carrick makes Herrera + Pogba look good but vice versa, they make Carrick look good too. He's important but out of that trio, Carrick is definitely the easiest to replace tactically speaking.
 
I think a lot of people don't realise, just having that third man in midfield is important to ANY midfielder in ANY team playing in ANY league today. Carrick's quality is not the sole reason why Herrera and Pogba are playing well, imo it's just simply having an extra man there. I'm not underrating Carrick because at the same time, this is a criticism to Herrera and Pogba too that the reason why they are able to function so well together, aside from all all technically gifted and having high game intelligence, it's having that extra body congesting the centre.

It's why I maintain, we can 'get' away with having a Schneiderlin/energy guy behind Herrera + Pogba instead of Carrick for certain games/going forward.

This might sound crazy but yes even Fellani would be able to do a job behind that duo. We're not gonna get the same dynamic ala deep passing but I honestly don't think Carrick is 'dictating' as much as people think, as simply being an intelligent reader at the back positionally with good passing ability. I.e Carrick makes Herrera + Pogba look good but vice versa, they make Carrick look good too. He's important but out of that trio, Carrick is definitely the easiest to replace tactically speaking.
You had a point, but then said his role is that of an intelligent reader.

On that basis, Fellaini definitely couldn't do that role. He is notoriously the opposite of an intelligent reader, nor does he have the passing range which sets Carrick apart from the others.

The composure and concentration required is massively important. No one else at United and in Mourinho's plans has that discipline.
 
On that basis, Fellaini definitely couldn't do that role. He is notoriously the opposite of an intelligent reader, nor does he have the passing range which sets Carrick apart from the others.

The composure and concentration required is massively important. No one else at United and in Mourinho's plans has that discipline.

Fellani has shown he can more than hold his own when he plays at the deepest midfielder (in a midfield three). The problem stems from when we need creativity and more incision from him individually i.e he fails when as a no.10/higher up the pitch. I think as a midfielder, he has the basic skill set required, decent touch, can keep it under pressure and can release it to a good standard. I expect the onus of dictating play, recycling effective possession and creativity to come from Herrera and Pogba. Yes we'll lose Carrick's composure but I think we gain in pitch coverage and more physicality (which might result in more transitions of plays/counter attacking opportunities).

Call it's Mourinho's defensive plan to sit back but Carrick's 'comfortable' and 'intelligent' screening of the back four (yes I'm being harsh by using sarcasm there) means we tend to drop because of his lack of mobilty. I'm not talking whether Carrick can hold his own in a foot race against Aguero or how much distances he covers (ala Mata, which is usually the most) because my issue is, you can see for yourself that it's one-paced and with little intensity.

Anyways, to go back to my initial point, in a midfield three, most of the weaknesses still exist but will be greatly minimised because the roles are reduced/passed onto the next one. It's a different dynamic but not neccessarily a bad one.

Of course this is thereotical but I'm not making assumptions on gut feelings, there's more than enough games of players playing in certain positions and tendencies you notice to make an educated observation.
 
Man Utd 3:1 Sunderland
With the way he plays in a three man midfield, its great. He has people (Well Herrera and Pogba) doing the running for him. He can shield the defence, take it off them and get it forward as quick as possible. I honestly think he can go another few seasons, even if the latter seasons are as backup or coming on to see out games (would rather it be him than Fellaini).

Somewhat bonkers that previous managers were going him and Fellaini in a midfield 2.
 
The midfield 3 is a win-win for us and him, he's playing like an oldschool sweeper right now and it's working beautifully.
 
I think a lot of people don't realise, just having that third man in midfield is important to ANY midfielder in ANY team playing in ANY league today. Carrick's quality is not the sole reason why Herrera and Pogba are playing well, imo it's just simply having an extra man there. I'm not underrating Carrick because at the same time, this is a criticism to Herrera and Pogba too that the reason why they are able to function so well together, aside from all all technically gifted and having high game intelligence, it's having that extra body congesting the centre.

It's why I maintain, we can 'get' away with having a Schneiderlin/energy guy behind Herrera + Pogba instead of Carrick for certain games/going forward.

This might sound crazy but yes even Fellani would be able to do a job behind that duo. We're not gonna get the same dynamic ala deep passing but I honestly don't think Carrick is 'dictating' as much as people think, as simply being an intelligent reader at the back positionally with good passing ability. I.e Carrick makes Herrera + Pogba look good but vice versa, they make Carrick look good too. He's important but out of that trio, Carrick is definitely the easiest to replace tactically speaking.

I think I fundamentally disagree with all of this. The absolutely crucial element of having a sitting midfielder behind a more adventurous front 2 is to be able to quickly and accurately move the call forward to those players before the opposition can react. Fellaini and Schneiderlin are utterly incapable of that, they don't have the technique, vision or passing range to pull it off. You put either of those two behind Pogba and Herrera and the whole thing breaks down because we can't get the ball to them quickly enough to really hurt teams.

That's the real difference between Kante and Schneiderlin, it's not the defensive aspect it's that Kante doesn't dwell on the ball. Same with Makelele. Fellaini is one of the worst dwellers on the ball there is. Blind is the only other one who could play that same role at the club currently.
 
I think a lot of people don't realise, just having that third man in midfield is important to ANY midfielder in ANY team playing in ANY league today. Carrick's quality is not the sole reason why Herrera and Pogba are playing well, imo it's just simply having an extra man there. I'm not underrating Carrick because at the same time, this is a criticism to Herrera and Pogba too that the reason why they are able to function so well together, aside from all all technically gifted and having high game intelligence, it's having that extra body congesting the centre.

It's why I maintain, we can 'get' away with having a Schneiderlin/energy guy behind Herrera + Pogba instead of Carrick for certain games/going forward.

This might sound crazy but yes even Fellani would be able to do a job behind that duo. We're not gonna get the same dynamic ala deep passing but I honestly don't think Carrick is 'dictating' as much as people think, as simply being an intelligent reader at the back positionally with good passing ability. I.e Carrick makes Herrera + Pogba look good but vice versa, they make Carrick look good too. He's important but out of that trio, Carrick is definitely the easiest to replace tactically speaking.

Just no. We saw a midfield 3 without Carrick and it didn't work out too well. Carrick is the player that enables Pogba more freedom to do what he does best. Carrick' IQ and positioning is the single biggest reason Pogba can drift and search for the ball in certain spaces - there is no other reason - full stop.

Pogba was a disaster early this year - do you think it's just coincidence that 1) he has started playing better and 2) the team has starting winning - or does it have to do with Carrick being placed in the XI?

Our form has everything to do with Carrick being in the team - ffs, we haven't lost a match with him in the starting line up.
 
IMO this is the worst performance form Carrick this season. His pressing is awful and his hesitate to tackle or bring down the runner far away from the box in another game would have cost us. I meant he in a good position to make cynical foul and unlikely get booked, but just let Sunderland bring the play deeper in our half, with Blind already in the book. Again and again with he went missing when the pressure is on, and Sunderland wank midfielder ran through our midfield. His passing is off today too. Too many dull passes with wrong pace or/and weight at some point. For example, the pass for Pogba who played through ball for offside Martial, is Smalling esque.

While I understand why Carrick dodged Borini's shot since the game was dusted and lest an injury, the pressing was super poor. Blind was further away, and in worse angle to block the shot than Carrick but pressed better and ended up closer to Borini, even though it's not helping since Borini just got it done. Carrick decided to screen instead going through with the pressing. (Edit)



If anything, Moyes really know very well how to play against Carrick even in his old Everton day till now. Had Moyes had Januzaj at his disposable (not bound by our term) then I am feared for our midfield.
 
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Man Utd's form when Michael Carrick has played this season: WWWWWWDWWDWWWW
Goals scored: 35 Conceded: 10
 
IMO this is the worst performance form Carrick this season. His pressing is awful and his hesitate to tackle or bring down the runner far away from the box in another game would have cost us. I meant he in a good position to make cynical foul and unlikely get booked, but just let Sunderland bring the play deeper in our half, with Blind already in the book. Again and again with he went missing when the pressure is on, and Sunderland wank midfielder ran through our midfield. His passing is off today too. Too many dull passes with wrong pace or/and weight at some point. For example, the pass for Pogba who played through ball for offside Martial, is Smalling esque.

While I understand why Carrick dodged Borini's shot since the game was dusted and lest an injury, the pressing was super poor. If anything, Moyes really know very well how to play against Carrick even in his old Everton day till now. Had Moyes had Januzaj at his disposable (not bound by our term) then I am feared for our midfield.

Good grief. Unbelievable
I remember you claiming to be a scout at one point. Now I know for sure you were never a scout and wouldnt even know or see enough to be a scouts arsehole.
 
Good grief. Unbelievable
I remember you claiming to be a scout at one point. Now I know for sure you were never a scout and wouldnt even know or see enough to be a scouts arsehole.
Where did I claim to be a scout? :confused:

No need for strong word in case you don't agree. Please give your own assessment then we can discuss
 
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Man Utd's form when Michael Carrick has played this season: WWWWWWDWWDWWWW
Goals scored: 35 Conceded: 10

Impressive but also a tad scary. How many games can he be counted on to play at his age?
 
I think I fundamentally disagree with all of this. The absolutely crucial element of having a sitting midfielder behind a more adventurous front 2 is to be able to quickly and accurately move the call forward to those players before the opposition can react. Fellaini and Schneiderlin are utterly incapable of that, they don't have the technique, vision or passing range to pull it off. You put either of those two behind Pogba and Herrera and the whole thing breaks down because we can't get the ball to them quickly enough to really hurt teams.

That's the real difference between Kante and Schneiderlin, it's not the defensive aspect it's that Kante doesn't dwell on the ball. Same with Makelele. Fellaini is one of the worst dwellers on the ball there is. Blind is the only other one who could play that same role at the club currently.

100% spot on, you can't just plug some destroyer in and expect it to function the same.
 
Thought he was pretty average today. His positioning seemed really off and he was rarely there behind the CMs to cover.

He looked slow and his tackling was poor also, he hasn't seemed that way before the Christmas break. Perhaps like Ibra he's suffered with too much of a break.
 
I think I fundamentally disagree with all of this. The absolutely crucial element of having a sitting midfielder behind a more adventurous front 2 is to be able to quickly and accurately move the call forward to those players before the opposition can react. Fellaini and Schneiderlin are utterly incapable of that, they don't have the technique, vision or passing range to pull it off. You put either of those two behind Pogba and Herrera and the whole thing breaks down because we can't get the ball to them quickly enough to really hurt teams.

That's the real difference between Kante and Schneiderlin, it's not the defensive aspect it's that Kante doesn't dwell on the ball. Same with Makelele. Fellaini is one of the worst dwellers on the ball there is. Blind is the only other one who could play that same role at the club currently.

Whatever I'm going say next is pretty much a moot point, since I don't think we're ever gonna see those players take that deep lying role in place/instead of Carrick but I won't say it's as clear cut to say they can't. Schneiderlin's time here has been a massive failure but you can't say he doesn't have the ability. He played in a Poch and Koeman team that looked to dominate possession by controlling games on the ball and via pressing; he was a big part of that.

As for Fellani, there's not too many examples but the Liverpool @ Anfield, although a skewered example gives a bit of perspective. Before the game, many were pointing out that the Liverpool attack would run rings around him and he'll be the liability out of the 3. Of course the context was that we conceded possession and looked to all-out defend so that possibly made him look good but at the same time, whenever he had the ball, he never looked lost or did the wrong things against a buzzing Liverpool press etc.

Just no. We saw a midfield 3 without Carrick and it didn't work out too well. Carrick is the player that enables Pogba more freedom to do what he does best. Carrick' IQ and positioning is the single biggest reason Pogba can drift and search for the ball in certain spaces - there is no other reason - full stop.

Pogba was a disaster early this year - do you think it's just coincidence that 1) he has started playing better and 2) the team has starting winning - or does it have to do with Carrick being placed in the XI?

Our form has everything to do with Carrick being in the team - ffs, we haven't lost a match with him in the starting line up.

Carrick's mere presense or rather another body being in the midfield is the single biggest reason why we are playing more consistently imo. Carrick has undeniably contributed to that but it was obvious Pogba's iffy form was more down to having to play in a double pivot; it was asking more defensive responsibility from him whilst further away from positions where he's at his best (centre to third half of the opposition half). That's not even to mention that it was often Rooney or Mata in front of him, who are never going to help control the midfield in a traditional sense.

I'm not slating Carrick's contribution or underrating his ability. I just think we can try and should expect more (not neccessarily from him) from that position.

ti vu's post is harsh but that's my biggest gripe with Carrick as the deepest lying. His quality on the ball is brilliant but we're not really dominating off the ball enough in his area/zones. That's why I think having an energy guy can help take the pressure off Herrera/Pogba and instead pass the dictating onus onto them. In simple words, get Schneiderlin/Fellani to tackle and get about the pitch more, pass to those two and rinse repeat.

They're not the long term solution and neither will Carrick be. We constantly need energy, technique and creativity in the middle. Carricks' technique is replaceable with other's energy imo. That's what it fundamentally boils down to for me.

100% spot on, you can't just plug some destroyer in and expect it to function the same.

Apologies for quoting you out of context but this is more to reinforce my points above. The function will of course not be the same but a destroyer brings other qualities, which I think will benefit our team more in a different way.
 
I think a lot of people don't realise, just having that third man in midfield is important to ANY midfielder in ANY team playing in ANY league today. Carrick's quality is not the sole reason why Herrera and Pogba are playing well, imo it's just simply having an extra man there. I'm not underrating Carrick because at the same time, this is a criticism to Herrera and Pogba too that the reason why they are able to function so well together, aside from all all technically gifted and having high game intelligence, it's having that extra body congesting the centre.

It's why I maintain, we can 'get' away with having a Schneiderlin/energy guy behind Herrera + Pogba instead of Carrick for certain games/going forward.

This might sound crazy but yes even Fellani would be able to do a job behind that duo. We're not gonna get the same dynamic ala deep passing but I honestly don't think Carrick is 'dictating' as much as people think, as simply being an intelligent reader at the back positionally with good passing ability. I.e Carrick makes Herrera + Pogba look good but vice versa, they make Carrick look good too. He's important but out of that trio, Carrick is definitely the easiest to replace tactically speaking.

I think you've gone too far, but essentially I do agree with the basic point that Carrick's presence as a sitting midfielder just adds a lot to this team and that any person sitting in that position would give the team something it didn't have before hand.

But to say Carrick has been easily replaceable this season is just wrong. The only player who might be able to have a similar impact is shunned out of the side. I'm far from Carrick's biggest fan, but you'd have to be a fool to think Fellaini could do the job as well as him.
 
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Whatever I'm going say next is pretty much a moot point, since I don't think we're ever gonna see those players take that deep lying role in place/instead of Carrick but I won't say it's as clear cut to say they can't. Schneiderlin's time here has been a massive failure but you can't say he doesn't have the ability. He played in a Poch and Koeman team that looked to dominate possession by controlling games on the ball and via pressing; he was a big part of that.
He didn't play as the anchor there though, he played a more advanced role ahead of Wanyama.
As for Fellani, there's not too many examples but the Liverpool @ Anfield, although a skewered example gives a bit of perspective. Before the game, many were pointing out that the Liverpool attack would run rings around him and he'll be the liability out of the 3. Of course the context was that we conceded possession and looked to all-out defend so that possibly made him look good but at the same time, whenever he had the ball, he never looked lost or did the wrong things against a buzzing Liverpool press etc.
The game were he played in a double pivot with Herrera and we couldn't keep the ball (35% possession and 75% passing accuracy) and failed to get out attack involved in the game at all?

I'd say that game exemplifies exactly why Fellaini should never wear a United shirt again. You need players who can pass out of a press, Fellaini is utterly incapable of doing that.
 
Think Carrick has actually been below par the last couple of games but shows us his importance that it allows the team to play better. He is the glue to our team and I'm sure Jose will recognise this and find make his replacement a top requirement.
Completely agree with this.
 
I think you've gone too far, but essentially I do agree with the basic point that Carrick's presence as a sitting midfielder just adds a lot to this team and that any person sitting in that position would give the team something it didn't have before hand.

But to say Carrick has been easily replaceable this season is just wrong. The only player who might be able to have a similar impact is shunned out of the side. I'm far from Carrick's biggest fan, but you'd have to be a fool to think Fellaini could do the job as well as him.

Never said easily replaceable just think we have and should look to other options/try different dynamics because we're still not functioning as well as we should be. Again that's not entirely on Carrick. For all the possession we try to hold onto, as soon as the other team has the ball, it's down to players like Herrera, Valencia and occassionally Pogba, who are trying to actually affect the ball in that first phase; we're not doing enough as a team to shut down those moments enough and Carrick's position is a cupable reason.

He didn't play as the anchor there though, he played a more advanced role ahead of Wanyama.

The game were he played in a double pivot with Herrera and we couldn't keep the ball (35% possession and 75% passing accuracy) and failed to get out attack involved in the game at all?

I'd say that game exemplifies exactly why Fellaini should never wear a United shirt again. You need players who can pass out of a press, Fellaini is utterly incapable of doing that.

Not going to look into the statistics but pretty sure in the Schneiderlin thread, it's been proved he was as deep as Wanyama and out-does him in passes, tackles, interceptions etc.

That game was clearly tactical and one of the first games after the City defeat, that we were emerging to find some confidence and consistency again. I'm glad you mentioned and reminded me, he played in a double pivot because Pogba was essentially a second striker that game. So in a game where he was set up to fail, he actually did very well. Look at the post match and Fellani's own thread for that game.

In context look at our possession in the recent game against Spurs at home.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38199123

An on form Utd team with a proper 3 man midfield yet we still concede possession.

I mean we're moving the goal posts here but I'll repeat what I said above 'We constantly need energy, technique and creativity in the middle. Carricks' technique is replaceable with other's energy imo. That's what it fundamentally boils down to for me.'

and

'The function will of course not be the same but a destroyer brings other qualities, which I think will benefit our team more in a different way.'

I'm not saying Carrick is crap and needs to go, I'm saying he's definitely not as irreplaceable as you'd think and if/when someone else can stand in, you'll see different qualities we've been missing.
 
The point is you can't just replace quick release of the ball with energy. You can add energy to a quick release of the ball (which is what Kante is so good at), but if they can't do the work on the ball it just becomes dysfunction as we have seen literally every time Carrick has been out of the side since Scholes retired.
 
I don't think we've ever properly played in a midfield three consistently without Carrick and to get the best out of him now, we have to play in a three; it's not really, 'we've been sh|t if Carrick doesn't play', it's more 'we're usually sh|t because we insist on playing a two (and have no other options)'.

And also, I don't buy Carrick as the be and end all of 'dictating' play. In this current set up, like I've said many times, whilst he brings his own qualities to our game, his position is a glorified ball recycler because we're on the front foot more and have more possession (when we choose to) higher up the field. I'd rather we try a pure destroyer so the other better creative/attacking players have less to do defensively.

This criticism doesn't stop at Carrick. Herrera (my 'favourite' current-player) has been poor imo for his past standards and I'd hazard a guess is that he's very tired from the amount of work he's done. Imagine someone next to him with more energy, our midfield would be in theory much stronger defensively and that'll leave more of the onus/ball recycler to him/partner, who in turn can feed it to the likes of Miki and Pogba faster.
 
Been amazing this season, but I'm glad Mourinho's decided (not pictured at the Lowry) to rest him tomorrow. West Ham away is much more difficult, we'll need him at the bottom of the midfield. I'm positive we can beat Boro with

Herrera----
-----Pogba
---Mata---​

Carrick's experience will be needed on Monday.
 
I don't think we've ever properly played in a midfield three consistently without Carrick and to get the best out of him now, we have to play in a three; it's not really, 'we've been sh|t if Carrick doesn't play', it's more 'we're usually sh|t because we insist on playing a two (and have no other options)'.

And also, I don't buy Carrick as the be and end all of 'dictating' play. In this current set up, like I've said many times, whilst he brings his own qualities to our game, his position is a glorified ball recycler because we're on the front foot more and have more possession (when we choose to) higher up the field. I'd rather we try a pure destroyer so the other better creative/attacking players have less to do defensively.

This criticism doesn't stop at Carrick. Herrera (my 'favourite' current-player) has been poor imo for his past standards and I'd hazard a guess is that he's very tired from the amount of work he's done. Imagine someone next to him with more energy, our midfield would be in theory much stronger defensively and that'll leave more of the onus/ball recycler to him/partner, who in turn can feed it to the likes of Miki and Pogba faster.


Time to test your theory today then.

I'm not confident. :nervous:
 


and now he misses the game....cheers Michael for another 90 minutes of Fellaini.
 
Time to test your theory today then.

I'm not confident. :nervous:

LOL. Knew this would happen when I saw the team news.

Fingers crossed. If it goes smoothly, Fellani should have a decent game and we'll see more of Herrera.

I mean I'd prefer an in-form Schneiderlin but yeah in theory today's line up is what I was talking about.
 
A replacement needs to be priority in the summer. It's a dangerous game to be so reliant on a 35 year old, especially when the backup is Fellaini.
 
LOL. Knew this would happen when I saw the team news.

Fingers crossed. If it goes smoothly, Fellani should have a decent game and we'll see more of Herrera.

I mean I'd prefer an in-form Schneiderlin but yeah in theory today's line up is what I was talking about.
Not even trusted at the base of the 3. Telling that he's gone for the better passer.
 
Has proven maybe just has important or even more important than zlatan and pogba in terms of making our best formation 433 work like a charm
 
we really missed his figure on the midfield for yesterday match. sigh.. we really need to get his replacement asap.
 
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