No it’s not. Wenger never came anywhere near to the spending of clubs like United or Chelsea. Arsenal’s net spend under Arteta runs them close (and shits all over the rest of the league).
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
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Does he come close though? I think yes miles behind the top teams.
I don't understand the expectation of other people, but Arsenal's wage budget is ranked 5th in EPL so a finish from 4 to 6 is a reasonable expectation from the manager. Arsenal's transfer net spent for the past 5/past 10 season sits 3rd in the league so Arsenal did not do well in spending the transfer money wisely given the quality of the squads at the moment. We do not have the 3rd best squad in the league. I do not expect the manager do a miracle and punch above the weight of the club every year, which is exactly what Wenger did back then.
https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/
https://www.transfermarkt.us/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1
Transitioning to a successful high press takes time and coaching skill. He has less of that skill than Pep or Klopp so it will take him longer. But once he gets there he can expect to be top five - probably at our expense.
It's interesting how narratives can change so quickly. The start of the season for Arsenal was terrible and people were calling for Arteta's head. Now they've been on a good run and people believe it's a turning point at the club. In my opinion, Arsenal needs to push on now. If they have another midseason collapse like seasons' past, they'll be condemned to another finish outside the top 6, which considering the investment in the side and lack of European games this year, would be a failure.
Personally, I can't see Arteta being that guy to bring Arsenal back to being contenders. I think the bar has been set so low, that it's become acceptable for managers with no credentials to be given the responsibility of a club the size of Arsenal. It's literally the same issue we have a United.
Personally, I can't see Arteta being that guy to bring Arsenal back to being contenders. I think the bar has been set so low, that it's become acceptable for managers with no credentials to be given the responsibility of a club the size of Arsenal. It's literally the same issue we have a United.
This is exactly what I mean by expectations. A club who spend as much as Arsenal do, shouldn't be settling for anything less than top 6.
Top clubs assemble the best players they can get, as they have the most resources. Of course they must also hire the best managers. And the best managers are those that add something extra, make a team punch above the weight of the squad. That is exactly what Arsenal should demand of their manager, and it's not miracle work either. There's hundreds of professional managers out there, and some of them make teams punch above their weight, and some of those some would love to work for Arsenal.
It's madness that you make all this fuzz about signing players and which playres are how good and all, and then you hire a guy who has never coached before and go "oh it's alright, I'm not expecting miracles".
It hasn't, what's been posted has been posted over the last year or two. It's been fully predicted.
Difficult job, squad needs overhaul, will take time, backed this summer financially, now going into second full season, see how he does.
The problem was their net spend over 2010 to 2020 was half of the likes of City and United*. Combined with a lower wage bill, some really poorly thought out signings (Pepe for over 70m
) and generally bad squad building it resulted in the squad deteriorating to a really poor state. Emery (a good manager) did a brilliant job to get 5th, but by all the metrics they were a midtable side and this caught up with them, they finished the season in dreadful form, and then next season the club completely crashed.When judging a manager the context needs to be accounted for and it's often ignored. People keep mentioning Arteta finishing 8th twice, but the first one was when he took over at the end of December and points wise set a top 6 rate. His first full season he could only bring in Partey and Gabriel and couldn't overhaul the squad, he finished 8th but 6 points off 4th and finished the season very strongly.
*I've used planetfootball and givemefootball, cba to crunch the numbers on transfermarket to get a rough idea. But there's still a clear gulf despite Arsenal throwing money away towards the end of the decade.
In their last 26 league games they've won 15, they've drawn 5 and lost 6. The reason people were calling for Arteta's head after the first three games is because they've been calling for his head non-stop ever since he joined (not the media, general football fans). Just look at the lineups in those three games, they're completely different to what they have now because players were missing and signings hadn't been finalised. But people don't look closely at the situation, they just see the name Arsenal and where they are in the league and that's enough for them to make up their mind.
The expectation of punching above the weight every season is unrealistic in my opinion. Even Klopp couldn't do that with Dortmund, and he can't with Liverpool either. No one is claiming Arteta is an elite manager. He is still learning on the job. The board is happy with him right now and so be it. As long as he can deliver a top 6 finish i think he is fine.
Do you believe with backing from the board and an overhauled squad, Arteta can turn a club that has been deteriorating over the past couple decades, into a top 4 contender?It hasn't, what's been posted has been posted over the last year or two. It's been fully predicted.
Difficult job, squad needs overhaul, will take time, backed this summer financially, now going into second full season, see how he does.
The problem was their net spend over 2010 to 2020 was half of the likes of City and United*. Combined with a lower wage bill, some really poorly thought out signings (Pepe for over 70m
When judging a manager the context needs to be accounted for and it's often ignored. People keep mentioning Arteta finishing 8th twice, but the first one was when he took over at the end of December and points wise set a top 6 rate. His first full season he could only bring in Partey and Gabriel and couldn't overhaul the squad, he finished 8th but 6 points off 4th and finished the season very strongly.
*I've used planetfootball and givemefootball, cba to crunch the numbers on transfermarket to get a rough idea. But there's still a clear gulf despite Arsenal throwing money away towards the end of the decade.
In their last 26 league games they've won 15, they've drawn 5 and lost 6. The reason people were calling for Arteta's head after the first three games is because they've been calling for his head non-stop ever since he joined (not the media, general football fans). Just look at the lineups in those three games, they're completely different to what they have now because players were missing and signings hadn't been finalised. But people don't look closely at the situation, they just see the name Arsenal and where they are in the league and that's enough for them to make up their mind.
I understand there are positives to take from the work he has done so far, but I just can't see someone who is still learning on the job being an overall success.
An Arsenal fan was having a pop at work today. An ARSENAL FAN. Christ almighty.
During this same period of time Arsenal were limply failing to defeat Villareal over two games.
It's pretty bad to miss both CL and EL qualification. Finishing very strongly doesn't change that. Arsenal have no business finishing 8th in a normal season.
I think if he carries on the direction he has been, he's done reasonable and set up the club with good youth. To me that's what I want to happen at United.
I don't know, we have to find out.
I think top 6 is the target this season, but I think they're likely to get 4th.
I agree that a manager learning on the job is going to have a tough time. We do have plenty of managers who had success in their first managerial roles, but it's a hard proposition.
I'm confused by what you're trying to say? They went out 2-1 in the semifinals, to a team that went on to win the competition.
Regarding the bolded, I've been over this so many times in the thread that I cba to go into it in detail. Short summary is that they were 6 points off 4th, with a squad that needed overhauling and Arteta hadn't been backed yet to do so.
tl;dr people keep judging on the name and not the quality of the squad.
Edit: I went to check the lineup to remind myself of the side they played.
Xhaka left back, Mari and Holding, and Chambers right back.
This is what I mean.
This is really the most important thing and also the factor most often ignored by people with agendas (including many Arsenal fans who hate Arteta).
Arteta inherited a complete dumpster fire, both in terms of the squad but also in terms of the footballing structure above him.
There was very little young or prime age talent on the team, a large contingent of players in midfield and defense who weren't nearly good enough and who had been assembled by a hodgepodge of 5-6 different managers and footballing executives over the previous couple years without any logic or footballing vision whatsoever, and the attack the previous season had been held up by a striker exiting his prime (Aubameyang), a midfielder who had just left the club on a free (Ramsey), and a declining and malcontented playmaker on disgusting wages (Ozil).
Add to this the fact that superagents like Kia Joorabchian and Jorge Mendes had come to see the club as a cash cow and the sporting director was eight months away from getting pushed out over (alleged) dodgy kickbacks in a deal where we bought a 20-30m player for 70m.
Then Arteta gets immediately told by the higher ups that there is no money to buy players his first January window, and the best they can do is land a couple cheap punts (who coincidentally have the right agents) like Cedric and Pablo Mari. And of course then Covid hits, which has made it very difficult for every club - not just Arsenal - that was in a rebuilding phase where they needed to turn over the roster, because its virtually impossible to sell anybody.
Arteta has made his share of mistakes and you can reasonably argue that he is lucky to still be in the job given where the club stood last December. But the club is in a massively better position right now than when he took over. Its one of the youngest teams in the top five leagues, the players have been recruited with a clear system and footballing vision in mind, they're largely a pretty likeable group of players the supporters can really get behind, and its just obvious that things are moving in the right direction after a long period from roughly 2015-2020 that was essentially a total disaster from the standpoint of recruitment, squad building, and overall club management.
All that said, results still matter. Arteta got the players he wanted and he needs to show that he can get the results. The minimum expectation for this year should be top six and real positive signs of improvement on the field (playing good stuff, implementing a successful system, showing the signs of being able to develop further with the right additions). Then we should really be looking to break into the top four next season.
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Completely agree with everything you've said!
I also agree about the bolded. In some of my earlier posts one of the things I criticised was how dull it was sometimes watching Arsenal. Which of course was going to be a struggle with the makeup of the squad but he could be very pragmatic, it's something I think he's improved on though, as while not fully dominating they've started having moments now and they're definitely moving in the right direction. It's definitely more apparent what he's trying to do while watching them. It's nice to see Smith Rowe being a big part of this too. They've still got the capability to go pragmatic when needed though and it's a useful quality.
That's how you lose credibility while making points using arbitrary timelines to beef up your argument , you accuse others of being stubborn not being able to see the bigger picture while you may actually be the one ignoring the evidence to the contrary because you had a different take initially .It hasn't, what's been posted has been posted over the last year or two. It's been fully predicted.
Difficult job, squad needs overhaul, will take time, backed this summer financially, now going into second full season, see how he does.
The problem was their net spend over 2010 to 2020 was half of the likes of City and United*. Combined with a lower wage bill, some really poorly thought out signings (Pepe for over 70m
When judging a manager the context needs to be accounted for and it's often ignored. People keep mentioning Arteta finishing 8th twice, but the first one was when he took over at the end of December and points wise set a top 6 rate. His first full season he could only bring in Partey and Gabriel and couldn't overhaul the squad, he finished 8th but 6 points off 4th and finished the season very strongly.
*I've used planetfootball and givemefootball, cba to crunch the numbers on transfermarket to get a rough idea. But there's still a clear gulf despite Arsenal throwing money away towards the end of the decade.
In their last 26 league games they've won 15, they've drawn 5 and lost 6. The reason people were calling for Arteta's head after the first three games is because they've been calling for his head non-stop ever since he joined (not the media, general football fans). Just look at the lineups in those three games, they're completely different to what they have now because players were missing and signings hadn't been finalised. But people don't look closely at the situation, they just see the name Arsenal and where they are in the league and that's enough for them to make up their mind.
Fully agreed. I think Arsenal are pretty entertaining to watch right now but we were honestly horrifying last fall. We literally went two months without scoring from open play in league matches, it was completely absurd and almost impossible to stomach.
Not sure what you’re saying, the 26 games was too point out why it was silly to write him off because of the three games at the start of the season. And I’m not accusing anyone of being stubborn, just bad at football takes
Regarding the bolded, what different take did I have initially?
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He's technically in his 2nd season with the players he wants. Please don't bury your head in sand and think that Covid-19 had ZERO effect on football clubs. And as I said, who would you replace him with at this time? Is there a top class manager with a great record readily available? Or are you just wishful thinking at this point? The team is in a development, not a transformation and it's clear that the club/board has given him the time to rebuild the culture and the squad. It's like post-Fergie hasn't taught you anything.
I'm not saying it's impossible. This is his first season with the players he wants. Why not wait and see how the team performs then?
If you combine their managerial reigns at their respective clubs, you have one EPL winner and one relegated chump.
The Tuchel Example.
It's not an example, it's more of an exception. But because the exception is most spectacular, it has people convinced that a quick fire and hire even if the current manager is doing an ok/good job, is a surefire way to increase the odds of success. I'm not so convinced, and history would back up my skepticism.
This does not apply to Ole, before anyone asks.
Tuchel inherited an amazing squad of players. Arteta inherited players like Mustafi, et al....
Arsenal failed to qualify for Europe for the first time in a gazillion years. That is a basic goal for a team of their size, and they simply failed at it, twice over.
They were terrible in that EL semifinal. It's not like Villareal played amazingly or anything.
You mention that they were 6 points off 4th. That would be nice if they'd finished 5th, but they didn't; they finished 8th.
Arsenal are doing decently right now, but there's no need to rewrite history to make it look like there was a clear path to now. There wasn't. They sucked.
Noted. I'm saying that regardless of squad quality, fans will now apply Tuchel's example to every situation. Regardless of whether they are right or wrong (moreso wrong than right)
This is a great post.
Yes, but it's completely irrelevant to me when I'm assessing how a manager has done. The team he's managing might be called Arsenal but that doesn't mean shit if you have to play Xhaka at LB, Chambers at RB and Mari and Holding in the middle. You look at his squad, his competition, his transfers, and how the team is progressing. One of the biggest problems Arteta had was that the team was called Arsenal and not Everton.
Villareal were a decent side, and Arsenal had a truly shocking backline. You're either underestimating Villareal or overrating that Arsenal side if you think Arsenal losing a semifinal 2-1 to Villareal is some massive indictment of Arteta.
Ok
Am I rewriting history, or am I standing by exactly what I've said throughout his time at Arsenal? These are from 2020 and the start of 2021
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This was the point I was making prior to this season, he needs time. He was getting written off too early and being made out to be doing horrendously, yet when you ask people what they truly expect from this Arsenal squad..it wasn't far off what Arteta is doing.
Then the Emery card gets played, but it is absolutely irrelevant. Whether he was doing better or not, they took their choice and have gone in a very different direction with an inexperienced manager so it has to be judged for what it is. In the long run it is going to have completely different results to Emery but you have to be prepared to see it through.
They also hadn't managed to do much in the market until this summer, and they're in a position where they have to wait for the fruit to ripen, if it ever does. They really have no alternative which lends itself to having some degree of patience. It's not a click your fingers job at Arsenal like Chelsea can be, who have a whole host of appealing players.
Then the Emery card gets played, but it is absolutely irrelevant. Whether he was doing better or not, they took their choice and have gone in a very different direction with an inexperienced manager so it has to be judged for what it is. In the long run it is going to have completely different results to Emery but you have to be prepared to see it through.
They also hadn't managed to do much in the market until this summer, and they're in a position where they have to wait for the fruit to ripen, if it ever does. They really have no alternative which lends itself to having some degree of patience. It's not a click your fingers job at Arsenal like Chelsea can be, who have a whole host of appealing players.
I don't think anyone is denying the fact that Arsenal under-performed for the past 2 seasons. Whether the responsibility lies on Arteta is another story. The board is obviously happy with Arteta in the summer and they spent a big sum of money in arsenal standard to rebuild the squad with the input from Edu and Arteta. I am a very patient fan and happy to see Arteta stay as Arsenal head coach/manager. I am happy to see young players are getting chances in the first team at the moment.
6 points of fourth is a bit flattering tbh. It was that "close" because they went on a run once it was too late and we had half an eye on our biggest game for years.
The gap was 12 when we mathematically 'secured' the finish above Arsenal.
Fair point!
One of the posts I quoted from myself above was actually in part reply to you, and I'm wondering if you still feel the same way.
I find myself agreeing with you a lot on here, but as I stated I thought you were badly mistaken at the time, and still do (I also think you were wrong with the squad assessments but that's a different argument!)
I like a manager who sticks to their convictions and likes to set up the team to play their distinct brand of football. But it's not the only way to do things, and a manager coming into a very difficult job is well within his rights to assess the squad and decide on an approach he feels would be the most beneficial. I don't think that means they'll be anchored to that one approach forever. I could actually name many, many managers who have changed their approach over their careers. Even at Chelsea you have someone like Tuchel who has changed and developed his systems depending on club and players throughout his career.
As this is the Arteta thread to focus solely on him, I think we can see how he's developed his system over his time at Arsenal, and how the new players have directly impacted this.
One of Arteta's consistent approaches is playing it out from the back. Arteta has bought in Ben White, Gabriel, Tomiyasu and Raumsdale for the backline (There is Tavares as well but he needs more minutes before I can get an idea of what sort of player he is). I think it's notable that he's obviously gone for a specific type of player, these players are all young and have good ball distribution. There all comfortable on the ball and the three defenders are all able to pick out forward passes when needed, sometimes being able to find a midfielder in the half spaces. Raumsdale is able to bypass this now and then and has pulled off some beauties when picking out players high up. He's also like the others very competent with the ball at his feet, so is a real positive when it comes to playing it out of the back. When you compare these replacements to their predecessors, they're much better at playing the kind of football Arteta wants to. This is just one aspect of how personnel has changed both the competency of the football but also how nice it is on the eyes.
There's a lot more to go into, both in terms of how the new additions have changed the football, but also the changes he's made as he's looked at what works and what doesn't. But I'm not going to get too deep into it because I don't want to be the new Amadeus but instead my tongue is up Lego man's ass.
You might disagree with me of course and think the football is the same as it ever was. Personally speaking though I much prefer watching his side now than I did earlier on in his tenure, and while I still think there's room for improvement in this aspect I think there are promising signs. I also think his ability to set up pragmatically is still going to be very useful, both when defending a lead and when playing strong sides. I think at Anfield for example we're going to see Arsenal attempting to be defensively aware and trying to ensure there are no easy goals, but they also have the ability to land a punch going forward.
Style wise I'm not convinced there's been such a drastic change, obviously the form of the players are allowing better results at this point. The second half against Leicester was straight from their post lockdown form of sitting back and their keeper playing a blinder (which in part led to the initial hype in the first place), at Stamford Bridge at the back end of last season it was similar backs to the wall stuff where they had little intention to attack us once they scored, fair enough it worked on the night but still. He does add the playing from the back element granted but so did Nuno at Wolves and I don't think anyone will argue he's an attacking manager.
I could be wrong and if I am I'll hold my hands up but hypothetically speaking if he ends up a top manager I think he'll end up closer to the style of George Graham than peak Arsene.
I don't think he'll be in the mould of Wenger either, as I think Arteta is happy to sometimes focus on disrupting the opponents and making life difficult for them, even in the way he'll sometimes clog up the middle and force the opponents to either go wide or try and break down banks. Whereas Wenger was fully committed to making the opponents adjust to them, and often playing the same way regardless of the opponent and their strength.
That doesn't mean I personally don't think Arsenal are starting to play some nice stuff. You mention the Leicester game and the way they played in the second half, but that was after obtaining a two goal lead. They played some nice stuff in the first half and went into the break with a much better xg and worth their lead.
I focused on the backline but I think there's a lot more to it than that, both stemming from having a squad more suited to him and choices he's made. With the new backline and hopefully a settled midfield with Partey, Odegaard, Smith Rowe and the likes of Saka adding width on the right and Tierney/Tavares holding the left flank just naturally plays some nicer stuff than when he was forced into using combinations of Elneny, Xhaka, with the likes of Chambers, Luiz, Holding, Sokratis etc. While attacking now Arteta has lifted the handbrake a little, sometimes they'll fill the box with the likes of Saka coming in from the right, Auba hovering in there, Smith Rowe and Odegaard running in and the LB surging down the left. I think this is often when they play some of their best football, but it's still very patchy and it happens in spurts.
I don't really disagree with what you've said, I think he's often pretty happy to hold on to a lead if he gets one, the Leicester two halves had such a different approach and it's risky when you have 45 minutes to play. I always think this will often balance out over a while if you're constantly risking being bombarded or facing a high xg, but I actually think he's quite good at eking out these kinds of games. When he first took over he decided to deal with the goals they were conceding, and he put together a decent run of wins and draws in tightly fought games where Arsenal could/should have lost many of them. I think as he's gotten better players, and a settled side more suited to his game he is progressing in his style of play, and I think if he sees out the season and hits his goals, he'll feel even more confident about playing on the front foot,
This period from now until the new year will give us a better idea of how this season will go for him. I've said it before but if he now goes back to shit and is sacked by Jan I'm going to get a lot of stick in this thread, and it'll be well warranted.
That you believe that he is a good manager who was dealt poor hand and are using this good stretch of form as confirmation for that while some of us thought otherwise and it's just quirk of fixture list and would even out as more and more matches are played .Not sure what you’re saying, the 26 games was too point out why it was silly to write him off because of the three games at the start of the season. And I’m not accusing anyone of being stubborn, just bad at football takes
Regarding the bolded, what different take did I have initially?
Ah ok I see what you mean.
My argument has never been that he was a good manager from the start, and neither am I using this stretch of confirmation, as I said that in direct reply to the comment about being people calling for his head after the first three losses this season. I've just stated pretty consistently in this thread that people underestimated the task of the job, and he was being written off by posters in this thread far too early.
My position has always been consistent. As for him being a good manager, it's still too early to tell. He's a first time manager who has never managed before, he's obviously had an idea from the start about how he wants to play and I like to see young managers do well. I think he's doing a good job so far and I'm interested in seeing how he does.
Arteta won two trophies within his first 18 months of his first job as manager. How many managers can say that? Klopp finished 8th in his first full season at Liverpool. Trashing Arteta despite his record so far and with his team currently in top form simply makes no sense at all. You probably just dislike the guy.
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An emotional outburst?
What facts? Afaik, they finished 6th under Wenger. He was sacked. 5th under Emery. He was sacked. Arteta has had two 8th place finishes. What fact suggests he's a good manager?
Arteta finished twice in a row 8th. They've been absolutely diabolical at times to watch. If it wasn't for the covid empty seat stadiums im almost 100% he'd have be sacked last year. Stop with this reactionary shit. Why not wait a few months before going on about how amazing? This reactionary stuff on this forum is hilarious to watch at times. Imagine he finishes 8th again?
To be fair, this full forum is over reactionary. You're always 90 mins away from being brilliant or utter sh!t.
Is it reactionary if that very poster has defended Arteta over the last two years and made arguments about how poor the squad was etc. He was arguing the case long before the recent good run.
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