Pogba simply because we have nothing to lose by keeping him and testing out our theory that he's shit under a new manager.
Mourinho or Pogba?
- Thread starter VP89
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Pogba, of course.
I will always respect Jose for what he did for Chelsea, but he's clearly past his prime and his methods/ideas aren't working anymore.Even back when his managing style was effective, he was regularly running out of steam by roughly his third season in charge at any given club and things would start to unravel on and off the pitch. He's always been the 'short term winner' type of a manager but at least in the past he was able to win something big early in his reign. I doubt Europa League and EFL were what Woodward had in mind when he hired him.
Pogba may be a wanker with a huge ego, but he's also a world class talent, who's got his best years still ahead of him. Replacing him without downgrading in a current market is near impossible. If anything, United's transfer dealings in the last few years proved that it's very difficult to obtain genuine quality even if you have plenty of money.
In the end, it becomes a question of who's more important for the club's future. If the board feels Jose has done enough to be backed at the expense of the club's most talented and marketable player, then Mourinho it is. But somehow I doubt it.
I will always respect Jose for what he did for Chelsea, but he's clearly past his prime and his methods/ideas aren't working anymore.Even back when his managing style was effective, he was regularly running out of steam by roughly his third season in charge at any given club and things would start to unravel on and off the pitch. He's always been the 'short term winner' type of a manager but at least in the past he was able to win something big early in his reign. I doubt Europa League and EFL were what Woodward had in mind when he hired him.
Pogba may be a wanker with a huge ego, but he's also a world class talent, who's got his best years still ahead of him. Replacing him without downgrading in a current market is near impossible. If anything, United's transfer dealings in the last few years proved that it's very difficult to obtain genuine quality even if you have plenty of money.
In the end, it becomes a question of who's more important for the club's future. If the board feels Jose has done enough to be backed at the expense of the club's most talented and marketable player, then Mourinho it is. But somehow I doubt it.
Did he manage to turn Chelsea fans against the players too like he is doing with us? Some people here think that players are spineless backstabbers who aren't doing their jobsbut I remember Chelsea players doing the same thing under him in his third season. Do you think fans are right to question the players' commitment when another world class squad that would go on to win the league in the next season had similar meltdown under Mourhino?
Its not just Pogba. Everyone seem to regress from Martial to Sanchez right to Rashford, Smalling, Lingard and even Lukaku. The special one has past his 3rd season expiry date.
Manager has to go, but so do some of the players. Until a manager comes in and has the balls, the balls, to ship out Valencia, Young, Jones, Lindelof, Rojo and Sanchez we are screwed. These guys are literally stealing a living at old trafford.
Let them both take the hike, neither is worth the hassle.
Not really an either or anymore, more of a both when question.
Indeed.
Jose, like any ambitious individual, has a tremendous ego and in the past it helped him succeed because his self-belief was so infectious it lifted a team spirit and boost the players' confidence and morale. But downside to his personality is that he's simply unable to handle failure. Once things start unraveling, he's unraveling with them and his ego becomes poisonous, he starts to turn on people, the atmosphere in the dressing room suffers , etc etc.
The players aren't blameless in that, just like they weren't when he had a meltdown at Chelsea. Ideally, if you're a professional footballer under contract, you should give your best in every game under any manager, simply because it's your job, and a well paid one at that and under no circumstances it's okay to just down your tools and not care. But the reality of the professional football is quite different. Top players know their value to the club and know they can manipulate and influence those in charge. And in most cases, it's the manager who gets the boot.
World class players are more valuable to a club than any manager. Do you think Chelsea would sacrifice Hazard to please Sarri? I bet Levi would feed Pochettino to the sharks the moment he falls out with Kane and if things don't improve and fast, United would sack Mourinho in hope that a new manager would find a way to keep Pogba happy off the pitch and dominating on it.
I don't think players consciously went out yesterday to play badly. The reality is that when atmosphere is so toxic and there is so much negativity surrounding the club than players cannot perform at their best and the blame solely lies with the manager in that regard.
Pogba has maybe a handful of games for us where he has dominated. Many glimpses but he is far from the player we thought we were getting when he came back. I think Pogba is done at United whether Jose stays or not. I just cannot see him staying long term. Him and Raiola want to cash in, and I can see a move to Barca happening in the near future.
I would always prefer to back the manager, but yesterday he made me question that for the first time. That midfield was so lacking on creativity, and part of me thinks he purposely hamstrung Pogba by not putting any runners in and around him. That way he can say he played Pogba after the bust up, and then he still hasn't delivered for him. Also why did McTominay stay on when he takes Lindelof off? Surely it would have made more sense to keep and actual defender playing in defense?
If it's one or the other then I'd say that we bin off Pogba, cash in and take whoever comes in for him to the cleaners. Despite his lackluster performances we should be able to command a 120 million + fee for him.
Jose is another question for me. He's got to do better and get us playing football, but apart from Zidane who is there to replace him with? Zidane isn't the answer for me, which sounds insane after 3 CLs on the spin, but I think others have already stated the reasons against his appointment. Poch has won nothing and Levy won't sanction him leaving during the season. Jardim get mentions but I don't see it. I like Allegri but he is in a good place with a much better squad. Conte is free but just as combative and destructive as Jose on last seasons showing.
I can't see either being here by the start of next season the way things are going right now.
I would always prefer to back the manager, but yesterday he made me question that for the first time. That midfield was so lacking on creativity, and part of me thinks he purposely hamstrung Pogba by not putting any runners in and around him. That way he can say he played Pogba after the bust up, and then he still hasn't delivered for him. Also why did McTominay stay on when he takes Lindelof off? Surely it would have made more sense to keep and actual defender playing in defense?
If it's one or the other then I'd say that we bin off Pogba, cash in and take whoever comes in for him to the cleaners. Despite his lackluster performances we should be able to command a 120 million + fee for him.
Jose is another question for me. He's got to do better and get us playing football, but apart from Zidane who is there to replace him with? Zidane isn't the answer for me, which sounds insane after 3 CLs on the spin, but I think others have already stated the reasons against his appointment. Poch has won nothing and Levy won't sanction him leaving during the season. Jardim get mentions but I don't see it. I like Allegri but he is in a good place with a much better squad. Conte is free but just as combative and destructive as Jose on last seasons showing.
I can't see either being here by the start of next season the way things are going right now.
I can't see how Mourinho can stay at the club given some of our performances this season but Pogba too has a lot to prove to the fans because his attitude is appalling at the moment. He's certainly not helped Mourinho out by trying to undermine him and their issues should have been dealt with internally and not in the media. If Jose stays, he needs financial backing from Woodward otherwise what is the point in carrying this mediocre run on any longer than it has to.
So far I have seen a; Pogba should go, Mourinho should go, the players should go, Woodward should go, Glazers should go, the scouts should go etc. Huh we can as well just close down the club.
All permutations seem to be some kind of scenario involving Jones leaving.
To me (still angry from the game yesterday) both can just leave.
I have never bothered about the negativity in the media about us but when so many players cant be bothered to give a fight against teams who should be scared of us, its just feels its enough.
I have never bothered about the negativity in the media about us but when so many players cant be bothered to give a fight against teams who should be scared of us, its just feels its enough.
This
Pogba to leave first. 89 million on a player who only turns it on 2/5 games and goes sulking when the going gets tough, or spits his dummy out. He might be frustrated with the players around him, the measure of man is how to deal with it, do you roll your sleeves up and get stuck in, or throw a tantrum and go crying to the press and Instagram?
Mourinho at the end of the season. I only say that because it might be less expensive?
Mourinho at the end of the season. I only say that because it might be less expensive?
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Go Go Man Utd.
That's true.
It is impossible to know for sure but I strongly think that he wouldn't pull any shit if he was playing under a manager/tactics that he enjoyed and the team enjoyed and most importantly that got results.
Last season and the season before, our football was dreadful but Pogba was quiete-ish because we were still reaching some goals (EL, League Cup, 2nd place) but results can only get you so far.
If he were to be sold in the near future, I know I won't miss him. I would still enjoy the player for France but too much drama at United drives me nuts
I don't think there would be a problem under the new manager either if we're doing well. I'm just worried that he could potentially be getting in the way of the manager doing his job if we're strugling or something isn't to his liking. But as you say, we can't know.
It would be a shame to lose him, he is our best player after all. But if we can get a huge sum for him, we could possibly either bring one world class player or two very good ones. I'm only concerned that potential buyers will perceive him as a difficult player and try to use that as a reason to reduce the price.
If anyone wants evidence look at how hazard played under him before his firing, since Jose left hazard and Chelsea have not done too badly
Pogbinho!
I would previously have sided with the manager against any player when Sir Alex was at the helm but not now. I still think there should be a healthy level of respect from players but I think that Jose is not doing himself any favours by 'throwing players under the bus' and making excuses instead of being able to take a scrap of blame is unhealthy for the club. The amount of blame he is willing to apportation to anybody besides himself is terrible and is dragging the team down and this may cause players to lose some of the respect for him which they previously had. I can see Jose going sooner rather than later but I hope that Pogba does not go before him. I think Pogba could play well under another manager and develop into the player I thought he would become when he first came here.
Is neither an acceptable answer?
I'm not a Mourinho fan, but this is not the point of their "fight".
I remember when Zlatan was at Ajax, the season just started, he had a big fight with Van der Vaart, Juventus came, and he was sold. Cost us dearly, as we had no replacement.
Fast forward a couple of years, and there was the Juventus scandal were they were relegated. There were recorded telephone conversations. One bycatch was a phone conversation between the Juventus chairman and Zlatan, just after the transfer. They were laughing and congratulating themselves for designing the fight with Van der Vaart and getting the transfer, at a good price.
TLDR; Pogba and his agent are designing a transfer to Barca. Mourinho is a means. Would have picked another fight if Mourinho wasn't there. ManUtd is wise to pick Mourinho's side in this case, you can't allow that no matter who is the current manager.
I had never heard about the conversation between the Juventus chairman and Zlatan, thank you for enlightening me. I thought that some dodgy things went on in football but this shocked me as I have a great amount of respect for Zlatan. Not just as a footballer but as a man. As I like the way he conducts himself in interviews. Although to some he may come across as arrogant I believe this is just super confidence.
On the Pogba front I hadn't thought of it that way but I have believed that for a while that Mino Raiola seemed to have too much influence over Pogba and had been trying to poison his mind. Since reading more about the man, I can now see why Sir Alex said that him and Raiola get on like "Oil and water".
What makes me dislike Mino Raiola even more now is since I found out that he was Zlatan's agent who brokered the deal to Juventus. It makes me think that he was the one who was not only trying to poison Pogba's mind but trying to poison Zlatan's and he has been pulling these strokes for a very long time. He seems like a very shady character who is only interested in lining his pockets while claiming he has clients best interests at heart.
Mourinho to go, 100%. Pogba has nothing to pass to, no runs, no movement, nothing.
'I've been told I'm not allowed' - Pogba not speaking to media amid reports of Man Utd ban
http://www.goal.com/en/news/ive-bee...t-speaking-to-media/9hxp7d4gbxzz1p31ri1qmju70
http://www.goal.com/en/news/ive-bee...t-speaking-to-media/9hxp7d4gbxzz1p31ri1qmju70
I saw that comment. He could just have held his head down and powered through the mixed zone or just said «no comment». Those words just stoke the fire even more.
Needs to keep quiet now. Everyone is tired. Just get on with playing and wait for the manager to go.
The boy just can't keep his trap shut. Almost like he has been coached by Mou or Raiola on how to keep feeding the media to have your way.
Ditto.
Almost like the man he hates ironically.
You could just say "no comment" you gobshite but no, you have to fuel the fire even more. Man I hate this guy.
Pogbas been decent this season overall I'd say. Easily our best performing attacking player and along with Shaw our best outfield players this season. Which is funny, considering all the constant shite going on between him and Mourinho, it looks like hes decided to say "feck you Mourinho I'll shit on you but make you pick me anyway". Also gives me more belief that he can actually come good under a new manager. We'll see though.
People blaming Pogba are having a laugh though. Nothing changes when hes out of the side, sometimes hes our only good player when in the side... its blatantly Mourinhos coaching that I'd the #1 problem here.bat least for direct footballing matters. Yes you can blame Woodward for plenty, but I'd say the main job of the manager is get the best out of the players he has at his disposal and coaching a quality side and proving he needs more players to get more out of the team. Nobody is going to back a manager who has everyone underperforming and who has ruined every new signing so far.
People blaming Pogba are having a laugh though. Nothing changes when hes out of the side, sometimes hes our only good player when in the side... its blatantly Mourinhos coaching that I'd the #1 problem here.bat least for direct footballing matters. Yes you can blame Woodward for plenty, but I'd say the main job of the manager is get the best out of the players he has at his disposal and coaching a quality side and proving he needs more players to get more out of the team. Nobody is going to back a manager who has everyone underperforming and who has ruined every new signing so far.
I used to really like Pogba, that has eroded.
It's the club that will be telling him to shut it not just the manager, he's just a disruptive employee at this point. Ship him to Barca if they pay up.
It's the club that will be telling him to shut it not just the manager, he's just a disruptive employee at this point. Ship him to Barca if they pay up.
He knows Barca will not pay him over the top. He seems to be hoping that his talk will make Ed sell him on the cheap. Looks coached by his agent to play the game.
Both can go. Fed up with them both. Fergie was spot on in his comments about Pogba/Raiola years ago.
I do think we can replace him with a quality player for cheaper. In terms of natural talent, there’s barely anyone better but I’m not convinced he’ll ever fulfill his potential properly until his mindset radically changes. I’m also fed up of him undermining our club.
He posted a tweet last night saying ‘Let’s keep fighting United’. Maybe it is addressed to Raiola
Mourinho has taken us forward. We’re back in the CL. We won the Europa. Finishing second was way better than we probably deserved last season. However, he just engenders so much bad will and negativity and the typical Jose 3rd season implosion doesn’t seem like it will be fixed any time soon. The football is static, tumescent and old fashioned and I don’t think he’s good for the long term health and prestige of Man Utd.
We desperately need a good Director of Football in and to go for a positive, modern coach. I like Eddie Howe a lot. Worried by Bournemouth’s propensity to get drubbed occasionally but think overall he’s earned a chance at a higher level. Plus there really isn’t any outstanding options who are easily available. I’m not convinced about Zidane outside of Real Madrid and lots of Spanish football experts aren’t either so that concerns me when he is linked.
Mostly I want a manager and players in who will put their heart into this club and show the utmost respect. I realise this is quite archaic and that it can seem like the old school English mentality of passion trumping all else. However, I believe our club has been so undermined and bereft of spirit that we need a shot in the arm emotionally. Love him or hate him, Klopp immediately struck a heart chord with the Kop and his side certainly harnesses the emotional power of their loyalty.
We need our identity back. We need quality, yes, but less of the mercenary or ridiculously passive personalities that currently make up our dressing room.
Ed Woodward is superb on the commercial side and must be kept in his lane where he does truly excel. Not on the football side where he perpetuates the emotionally disconnected culture that is poisoning our club.
I do think we can replace him with a quality player for cheaper. In terms of natural talent, there’s barely anyone better but I’m not convinced he’ll ever fulfill his potential properly until his mindset radically changes. I’m also fed up of him undermining our club.
He posted a tweet last night saying ‘Let’s keep fighting United’. Maybe it is addressed to Raiola
Mourinho has taken us forward. We’re back in the CL. We won the Europa. Finishing second was way better than we probably deserved last season. However, he just engenders so much bad will and negativity and the typical Jose 3rd season implosion doesn’t seem like it will be fixed any time soon. The football is static, tumescent and old fashioned and I don’t think he’s good for the long term health and prestige of Man Utd.
We desperately need a good Director of Football in and to go for a positive, modern coach. I like Eddie Howe a lot. Worried by Bournemouth’s propensity to get drubbed occasionally but think overall he’s earned a chance at a higher level. Plus there really isn’t any outstanding options who are easily available. I’m not convinced about Zidane outside of Real Madrid and lots of Spanish football experts aren’t either so that concerns me when he is linked.
Mostly I want a manager and players in who will put their heart into this club and show the utmost respect. I realise this is quite archaic and that it can seem like the old school English mentality of passion trumping all else. However, I believe our club has been so undermined and bereft of spirit that we need a shot in the arm emotionally. Love him or hate him, Klopp immediately struck a heart chord with the Kop and his side certainly harnesses the emotional power of their loyalty.
We need our identity back. We need quality, yes, but less of the mercenary or ridiculously passive personalities that currently make up our dressing room.
Ed Woodward is superb on the commercial side and must be kept in his lane where he does truly excel. Not on the football side where he perpetuates the emotionally disconnected culture that is poisoning our club.