Moyes So Far!

[LonelyFire]

Just to add to the he's SAFs boy stuff - SAF is said to have watched the game with Charlie Stillitano in New York....Stillitano promptly appeared on radio following day ripping Moyes a new one. "Not good enough".

Coincidence?

 

[Empire]

Wtf?

I think he is trying to counter the arguments of the few remaining Moyes apologists that appointing Klopp or Simeone would be an equivalent gamble to the appointment of Moyes (or that appointing the 2004 version of Mourinho or the 1986 version of Fergie was an equivalent gamble). That is the two time Bundesliga winning, CL runner up Klopp, the UEFA cup and CL winning Mourinho and the Cup Winners Cup and Od Firm duopoly- breaking Fergie - as opposed to a bloke who won the 3rd division with Preston and finished fourth 9 years ago.

Who has said this?

I don't know - maybe you should ask him what he meant rather than rely on my interpretation. But there was certainly someone questioning Klopp's qualifications earlier (unaware he had won anything and being under the apparent impression BVB are some small club), and the incredibly tedious "Fergie needed time" argument is regularly trotted out despite the vastly different circumstances of United in 1986 vs 2013.

I did ask him what he meant.

I see lots of people making references to bizarre things like this people have said in Moyes' defence, but I don't see it for myself. People are either making it up or blowing it hugely out of proportion IMO.

Fair enough but the substance of his post is hard to argue with - as one of the world's 4 biggest clubs, we should be aiming a bit higher than "did a decent job at Everton".

It was Drummer earlier this afternoon who was coming out with the strange comments on Klopp. As for Fergie, we have all heard the "Fergie needed time too" justification. As regards Mourinho, I don't recall any comments to that effect so maybe Empire, as refracted through me, was over-egging the pudding. Simeone - I am not 100% convenced yet so I didn't use him as an example.

As for Moyes, what are the grounds for you being a supporter? That's not meant aggressively, I am just genuinely curious at to how you think he can still turn it round.

Yes Moskva, you basically explained it.

Drummer was the main person my reply was targeted towards. However, the point I made is that at the very least a highly promising young manager like Aberdeen Ferguson, Porto Mourinho or Dortmund Klopp should be targeted if we want somebody who will come for the long term. They in my opinion are a step up on Moyes.

However we are not Porto nor in the position of United prior to Ferguson or Dortmund prior to Klopp therefore there is nothing wrong with targeting a world class head coach who might leave after a few seasons, the director of football can provide stability providing the roles are clearly defined.

The question is how far does Moyes potential reach and how long will it take for him to achieve the level we require. So if we are to stick with him we must take a calculated risk.

Woodward has more information than I so I'm happy with what he chooses in the summer. I do think however if a top manager became available then it may be difficult to justify sticking with Moyes.

From Moyes supporters I ask merely for the logic of choosing Young and Valencia over Januzaj and Kagawa against Olympiakos. I cannot understand this because the two former players have been struggling whilst Januzaj has performed well this season and Kagawa too in the champions league at least. So not playing either one in a game where a 4-4 draw was better than a 0-0 is surprising.

 

[Empire]

David Moyes has pointedly refused Shinji Kagawa's offer to translate Japanese menu items during a team dinner at a sushi restaurant, preferring to rely on Ashley Young...

Moyes and his Manchester United players decamped on Wednesday night to Umezushi on Mirabel Street in an attempt to rebuild morale after their Champions League defeat to Olympiakos.

But the evening took an uncomfortable turn when Moyes consistently ignored Kagawa’s attempts to explain the various exotic foodstuffs on offer, instead asking England winger Young for his thoughts on the relative merits of inarizushi and gunkanmaki.

“It was really awkward,” a Manchester United player, speaking on condition of anonymity, told FourFourTwo. “Shinji’s mid-way through explaining that the negitoromaki might be a better bet than the funazushi on account of the latter being made with fermented carp, when the gaffer turns his back on him and asks Ashley for his thoughts on natto maki.

“When Ashley says he doesn’t know what natto maki is, we all assume he’s going to listen to Shinji. But instead he asks Antonio [Valencia] what namasu means. Antonio does his best, but they didn’t teach him that at Wigan.

“The situation’s crying out for Shinji, but the boss just asks Juan Mata the difference between maguro and otoro, which isn’t fair on Juan, especially since he’d told him that we were all going for tapas.

“In the end, he just gives the menu to Tom Cleverley and asks him to come up with the goods. Is it really a surprise that everyone ends up with a massive bowl of wasabi and a California roll?”

The evening took a turn for the worse when Robin van Persie complained that everywhere he wanted to sit was already occupied by someone else, and deteriorated even further after an argument about the bill saw Moyes threaten the restaurant staff with an endless barrage of slow, looping crosses.


http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/moyes-ignores-kagawa-sushi-restaurant#yYvMsyW8hx3oJpSj.99

 

[Crackers]

 

[LonelyFire]

Hope not.... considering that 5 or 6 senior players could be on their way out next season. I m not a prophet but I cannot see someone coming in making miracles for these reasons:

- a number of players have already their minds turned up on the WC
- others know that by the end of the season they ll be gone so they lack motivation and nothing could change that
- I cannot see any other manager gaining the same respect as Fergie had on the squad (not even Fergie himself), especially on the senior players
- biggest mistake was done during the summer - the clear out should have started then but it was very difficult for a new manager to get rid of "champions" plus Woody fecking up things.

I understand your point, however, just a couple of things to consider:

1. None of your points address Moyes personal failures tactically.
2. Do you seriously think a proven quality manager would have been treated the same way by the players? I don't think so - they doubted Moyes cause of his record...or lack of. Everything post his appoint,net has only reinforced their opinion.
3. Don't blame Woodward solely for the summer. Moyes made some huge mistakes this summer.

Can understand your point. None of us want player power to succeed in most cases, however, in this case I think the players are correct.

 

[Crackers]

I've decided the only way to endure this mess is to make it funny. I'm at a loss how to do that though. Any suggestions?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/podca...es_keep_his_job_Chelsea_also_catch_the_CL_bug

Andy Mitten interview after the Olympiakos match, it provides an insight into the prevailing sentiment amongst United's away contingent and how close they are to turning on Moyes.

Mitten or at least some of the travelling fans don't appear to hold the likes of the Caf in high regard though.

Apologies if this has already been posted.

 

[dev1l]

I understand your point, however, just a couple of things to consider:

1. None of your points address Moyes personal failures tactically.
2. Do you seriously think a proven quality manager would have been treated the same way by the players? I don't think so - they doubted Moyes cause of his record...or lack of. Everything post his appoint,net has only reinforced their opinion.
3. Don't blame Woodward solely for the summer. Moyes made some huge mistakes this summer.

Can understand your point. None of us want player power to succeed in most cases, however, in this case I think the players are correct.

re: tactics I m not an expert but from my experience with football coaches, if you ask 10 coaches about tactics in a particular game, each and everyone of the 10 will tell you something different. Anyway due to my "inexpertise" I wont go into that.

Re: transfers. Most of the big transfers take some to complete - usually 4 or 5 months. In all probability most of the work on next summer transfers has been done so it was very difficult for Moyes to sign big name players. The club also made a mistake of changing its CE at the same time, which does not make sense unless there is something we dont know of.

 

[Gladiator]

He would have had that influence but value of their asset is now impacted - they will take actions themselves. As for it being briefed by Woodward - it just so happened to come on back of CL defeat when Woodward would have been on same flight plan as many manchester hacks....they've all went with similar stories because its came from the same person.

The Mirror, Independent, The Sun, and Telegraph have all went along the same lines - he's effectively now on probation. He will not survive past the city/pool games.

But I'm saying how do we know that person is Woodward? Couldn't it also be possible that Woodward briefed the Guardian which gave a more positive spin in Moyes' direction? If Liverpool and City games go south then we'll see what happens. My hunch is that Moyes will remain.

 

[Amir]

Just to add to the he's SAFs boy stuff - SAF is said to have watched the game with Charlie Stillitano in New York....Stillitano promptly appeared on radio following day ripping Moyes a new one. "Not good enough".

Coincidence?

Do not do this to me. I can deal with the despair but the hope is killing me.

 

[LonelyFire]

re: tactics I m not an expert but from my experience with football coaches, if you ask 10 coaches about tactics in a particular game, each and everyone of the 10 will tell you something different. Anyway due to my "inexpertise" I wont go into that.

Re: transfers. Most of the big transfers take some to complete - usually 4 or 5 months. In all probability most of the work on next summer transfers has been done so it was very difficult for Moyes to sign big name players. The club also made a mistake of changing its CE at the same time, which does not make sense unless there is something we dont know of.

Mate, this isn't true at all. If you pay the money, deals get done quick - it's that simple. See Willian, Salah at Chelsea - god we signed Nani in one day!

Moyes had plenty of time to make signings but, true to form, wouldn't make a quick enough decision. No doubt changing CEO at same time had an impact but idea Moyes couldn't act cause he didn't start until July 1st is nothing but an excuse in his part.

 

[dev1l]

Mate, this isn't true at all. If you pay the money, deals get done quick - it's that simple. See Willian, Salah at Chelsea - god we signed Nani in one day!

Moyes had plenty of time to make signings but, true to form, wouldn't make a quick enough decision. No doubt changing CEO at same time had an impact but idea Moyes couldn't act cause he didn't start until July 1st is nothing but an excuse in his part.

Sorry mate but I dont believe that.

 

[LonelyFire]

But I'm saying how do we know that person is Woodward? Couldn't it also be possible that Woodward briefed the Guardian which gave a more positive spin in Moyes' direction? If Liverpool and City games go south then we'll see what happens. My hunch is that Moyes will remain.

Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree....but I am 99% certain that briefing came from Woodward.

Who wrote The Guardian article? Jamie Jackson? Wouldn't take note of that at all. If Danny Taylor then that's a different matter.

As I said, I think you'll see an utterly dire performance in the city/pool games and it will cost Moyes.

 

[LonelyFire]

Sorry mate but I dont believe that.

Well, that's what Quieroz said. We were in Portugal to sign Anderson and were alerted to possibility on nani through quieroz's connections. Club done deal on his recommendation.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/podca...es_keep_his_job_Chelsea_also_catch_the_CL_bug

Andy Mitten interview after the Olympiakos match, it provides an insight into the prevailing sentiment amongst United's away contingent and how close they are to turning on Moyes.

Mitten or at least some of the travelling fans don't appear to hold the likes of the Caf in high regard though.

Apologies if this has already been posted.

Mitten described the travelling fans as "people who don't go ranting on the internet after every bad game" so yeah, that's true. You'd get right up their nose.

 

[RedRover]

Yes. A few good points in there RR.

That team is firmly in a rebuilding phase, that would have made things harder for Moyes. Remember he would have been sort of like a Fergie figure to the players at Everton too, a long time manger, his imprint was all over the place. He was also one of the most respected managers in the league. What he did at Everton is not enough to get the respect of our players. We have no idea how he played it, but I have a feeling he tried to do a Benitez at Inter and it just didn't work.

Martinez is using mainly a Moyes defence but the attack and midfield is all him, they are playing nice football, the kind of stuff Moyes' teams never replicated. With the players we have I just don't see it being a stretch that he wouldn't have AT LEAST had us playing better football. Maybe the results would not have been much better (I doubt that too) but the fans would have been able to cope with a man with vision. Lie someone stated earlier Moyes seems to be playing 'percentage football' this team has reached a new multiple times this season. That lays at the feet of Moyes.

He talked of giving everyone a chance, which he didn't and he just lacks balls imo. Own up, be a man about it. He has pointed the finger so often that the times when we really had bad luck mainly Stoke that excuse was already played out.

How about Moyes' tactical failings? The football is dire right now, there has been no improvement in that regard.

I assume you still want to give him more time.

He was a risky appointment and I just don't think it will work out.

Managers will always try and lessen the blow after a defeat and I have no problems with what he's said. He seems to be fairly honest. After the Fulham game he made criticisms of the team which were fair, and it wasnt a scathing attack. It was a better comment in the circumstances than saying we were "unlucky".

In terms of the foobtall being played its been worse since Christmas - when its probably been made clear that a lot of players time at the club could be up in the summer - maybe that has an effect.

I have no particular love for Moyes - but he has been placed in a pressure cooker situation, he hasnt got the players in he wanted and he's having the difficult job of being the "bad guy" in moving on a number of players who are no doubt well liked and well respected by fans and players alike. He's al;so trying to get the best out of a squad and develop a system even ythough hlaf of them could be out of the first XI next year.

He hasn't made the most of what he has, but I think he deserves a chance to bring in the players he wants (and he looks like targetting very good players if the press reports are right). It will be easier to see how he sets up, what he intends and if the football and results improve - if not then the club have a decision to make.

 

[kundalini]

Also, does anybody know how the Glazer's run their American sports team? Do they have a track record of firing/hiring? Just curious as I know very little about that.

Buccaneers general managers and head coaches seem to get 2 years before getting fired; that's been the pattern over the last decade. The Glazers have occasional moments of spending big on Tampa Bay but typically are well below the salary cap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers

 

[Diabo_Sam]

Just to add to the he's SAFs boy stuff - SAF is said to have watched the game with Charlie Stillitano in New York....Stillitano promptly appeared on radio following day ripping Moyes a new one. "Not good enough".

Coincidence?

Spoiler

 

[Gladiator]

Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree....but I am 99% certain that briefing came from Woodward.

Who wrote The Guardian article? Jamie Jackson? Wouldn't take note of that at all. If Danny Taylor then that's a different matter.

As I said, I think you'll see an utterly dire performance in the city/pool games and it will cost Moyes.

Why not? Do you discount jackson's sources? I'm expecting a dire performance as well. We shall see though. If he is sacked what do you think would happen? Would Round and co leave with him too?

 

[LonelyFire]

Why not? Do you discount jackson's sources? I'm expecting a dire performance as well. We shall see though. If he is sacked what do you think would happen? Would Round and co leave with him too?

I don't rate Jackson at all. Ogden, Taylor, Herbert, and Ducker are all ones to take heed of when it concerns Utd.

If Moyes goes, they all go - full clean out. I would expect Giggs to get the nod until the end of the season with the club throwing everything at Klopp.

That's just my thoughts.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I don't know - maybe you should ask him what he meant rather than rely on my interpretation. But there was certainly someone questioning Klopp's qualifications earlier (unaware he had won anything and being under the apparent impression BVB are some small club), and the incredibly tedious "Fergie needed time" argument is regularly trotted out despite the vastly different circumstances of United in 1986 vs 2013.

Trouble is these threads get that long and convoluted that nobody can remember who said what and when.

 

[FineYoungCasual]

I've decided the only way to endure this mess is to make it funny. I'm at a loss how to do that though. Any suggestions?

Try this...

Moyes celebrates winning the 'Most Crosses Ever' Cup.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Mitten described the travelling fans as "people who don't go ranting on the internet after every bad game" so yeah, that's true. You'd get right up their nose.

That wasn't the part i meant as it happens, although it should come as no surprise to me that you would use it to criticise or make sweeping generalisations.

Having heard the opinions of some of these "proper supporters" they can be every bit as reactionary as someone speaking on the internet, with their own preferred scapegoats for times of woe.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Hope not.... considering that 5 or 6 senior players could be on their way out next season. I m not a prophet but I cannot see someone coming in making miracles for these reasons:

- a number of players have already their minds turned up on the WC
- others know that by the end of the season they ll be gone so they lack motivation and nothing could change that
- I cannot see any other manager gaining the same respect as Fergie had on the squad (not even Fergie himself), especially on the senior players
- biggest mistake was done during the summer - the clear out should have started then but it was very difficult for a new manager to get rid of "champions" plus Woody fecking up things.

We don't need players who are going and were intending of going no matter what happened this year deciding the destiny of our club.

 

[LonelyFire]

That wasn't the part i meant as it happens, although it should come as no surprise to me that you would use it to criticise or make sweeping generalisations.

Having heard the opinions of some of these "proper supporters" they can be every bit as reactionary as someone speaking on the internet, with their own preferred scapegoats for times of woe.

Spot on. Cleverley being their main source of vitriol

 

[FineYoungCasual]

Mitten described the travelling fans as "people who don't go ranting on the internet after every bad game" so yeah, that's true. You'd get right up their nose.

So would you though, wouldn't you?

You're on here ranting after every bad game, no?

 

[bishblaize]

That wasn't the part i meant as it happens, although it should come as no surprise to me that you would use it to criticise or make sweeping generalisations.

Having heard the opinions of some of these "proper supporters" they can be every bit as reactionary as someone speaking on the internet, with their own preferred scapegoats for times of woe.

As someone who a) grew up in spitting distance of the ground and b) someone who has attended games all their life, I can say with certainty that uniteds fans, including the away contingent, are not a bunch of Buddhist like zen masters , full of endless patience and with infinite foresight. While our fans rarely boo in the ground, and chanting for managers to be sacked is unheard of, don't think that when we're in the pubs afterwards that the fans are pulling any punches. A space is a spade and it will be called so.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So would you though, wouldn't you?

You're on here ranting after every bad game, no?

Going out on a limb here but I think he was referring to people going on the internet to moan about the team and manager after every bad game.

You knew that though, didn't you?

 

[Moriarty]

As someone who a) grew up in spitting distance of the ground and b) someone who has attended games all their life, I can say with certainty that uniteds fans, including the away contingent, are not a bunch of Buddhist like zen masters , full of endless patience and with infinite foresight. While our fans rarely boo in the ground, and chanting for managers to be sacked is unheard of, don't think that when we're in the pubs afterwards that the fans are pulling any punches. A space is a spade and it will be called so.

Perish the thought.

 

[Empire]

Try this...

Moyes celebrates winning the 'Most Crosses Ever' Cup.

I'm not a psychologist but surely he should not be experiencing such high excitement but relief at the fact we scored. Considering he was reliant on crosses he should have been disappointed that it took 80 for us to score a goal, and even then it wasn't a cross.

He didn't look like a disappointed man, he looked like a man who set up his team to be a battering ram and succeeded, if only temporarily. I'm not sure being a battering ram is the way forward at the most elite level of football management.

 

[Timdbro]

Didn't get the one about the crosses though, can't see any joke there..

 

[FineYoungCasual]

Going out on a limb here but I think he was referring to people going on the internet to moan about the team and manager after every bad game.

You knew that though, didn't you?

No, I really wasn't being sarcastic.

You're ranting on the internet after every game, and you've certainly been bemoaning the team.

I don't think the fact that you want to keep Moyes here makes any difference to that, does it?

Going by Mitten's description, you would get right up his nose. Not that it matters.

 

[Nighteyes]

I'm not a psychologist but surely he should not be experiencing such high excitement but relief at the fact we scored. Considering he was reliant on crosses he should have been disappointed that it took 80 for us to score a goal, and even then it wasn't a cross.

He didn't look like a disappointed man, he looked like a man who set up his team to be a battering ram and succeeded, if only temporarily. I'm not sure being a battering ram is the way forward at the most elite level of football management.

Yes, he should be disappointed that his team scored 2 goals in a few minutes. There are a world of reasons to have a go at Moyes but that's not one of them.

 

[kundalini]

But I'm saying how do we know that person is Woodward? Couldn't it also be possible that Woodward briefed the Guardian which gave a more positive spin in Moyes' direction? If Liverpool and City games go south then we'll see what happens. My hunch is that Moyes will remain.

If you listen to Andy Mitten on that Irish Radio show (it's not worth listening to), he states that Woodward was briefing the press after match. Mitten's interpretation is that the United board want to retain Moyes and intend to spend big in the summer but they didn't expect things to be this bad and that the situation is fluid. Some of the papers emphasized the first part, others the fluidity; lots of them mentioned the new super transfer database and scouts with Ipads.

 

[LonelyFire]

If you listen to Andy Mitten on that Irish Radio show (it's not worth listening to), he states that Woodward was briefing the press after match. Mitten's interpretation is that the United board want to retain Moyes and intend to spend big in the summer but they didn't expect things to be this bad and that the situation is fluid. Some of the papers emphasized the first part, others the fluidity; lots of them mentioned the new super transfer database and scouts with Ipads.

As I said...

 

[Rowem]

I'm not a psychologist but surely he should not be experiencing such high excitement but relief at the fact we scored. Considering he was reliant on crosses he should have been disappointed that it took 80 for us to score a goal, and even then it wasn't a cross.

He didn't look like a disappointed man, he looked like a man who set up his team to be a battering ram and succeeded, if only temporarily. I'm not sure being a battering ram is the way forward at the most elite level of football management.

I can't imagine a reaction that could display relief better than his reaction there.

 

[Dominos]

The Mirror, Independent, The Sun, and Telegraph have all went along the same lines - he's effectively now on probation. He will not survive past the city/pool games.

The question marks over his future almost seem like a token gesture given how bad the results have gotten - if you read the articles, they all say he's still got the backing from the glazers and the rest is just their personal criticism of performances and results.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No, I really wasn't being sarcastic.

You're ranting on the internet after every game, and you've certainly been bemoaning the team.

I don't think the fact that you want to keep Moyes here makes any difference to that, does it?

Going by Mitten's description, you would get right up his nose. Not that it matters.

Of course it makes a difference. You obviously don't understand the context. Maybe listen to the fecking thing.

 

[gormless]

Try this...

Moyes celebrates winning the 'Most Crosses Ever' Cup.

That just makes me feel sorry for him. He's clearly really trying his hardest, he's passionate about it, he seems like a decent guy, he just doesn't happen to be good enough. I feel bad for him

 

[Getsme]

That just makes me feel sorry for him. He's clearly really trying his hardest, he's passionate about it, he seems like a decent guy, he just doesn't happen to be good enough. I feel bad for him

Couldn't agree more.
It's bad when you start to feel sorry for the manager of Manchester United.