Moyes So Far!

[RedRover]

If Moyes was winning or playing good football there would be some optimism.

He is doing neither. Red Rover makes some good points, I feel like he most likely doesn't rate the vast majority of players here and is working with what he has until next season. He has shown himself to be a poor man manager and you need it all at the highest level.

It is easier to do well/exceed expectations at a team that is not expected to be competing.

How do you exceed expectations at City, United or Chelsea? Winning is expected.

He may be a poor man manager - but it seems he had no issues at Everton. He was there for long enough and the players seemed to lie and respect him - he also got more out of a team than the sum of its parts.

Martinez has had success there immediately, but he had a strong settled and decent squad Moyes built over a number of years.

I suspect half the issue here is that the players are struggling to cope with Fergie not being there as they are suddenly under the microscope more than they were. They also know that big changes are imminent and a lot are either playing for their future, or know they are moving on at the end of the season. He's also had to deal with ructions from Rooney and other players with a couple of years left whose agenst want to know what's happening and whether they need to start looking for a new club. All that could have a big effect on morale, have players unsettled ands make Moyes job ten times harder.

Managing your own players islikely to be easier than managing somebody elses, especially when those players previously had the greates manager of all time in charge. As it is, we're in transition a number of our star players now probably moving on.

 

[Amir]

Oh yeah, him too.

Hmmm... None of says much about Fergie's ability at picking a good succesor.

That's another point scored by the "Moyes Out" camp!

I don't think Fergie chose Eriksson at all or had that much input in the decision. In fact, I think he wasn't keen on him.

 

[Sixpence]

Fair enough, what manager can we get ? Bearing in mind Anchelloti and Jose are unavailable and unlikely to leave their clubs. One of the big things thrown at Moyes is that he never won anything, so that rules Klopp out . .

What big manager is realisitically attainable and who has the "big name" status or credentials to instil the confidence back into the team?

I'd like to see a Van Gaal for maybe a couple of seasons just to get us competing again. Massive experienced, managed huge clubs and is certainly someone that would not put up with the shit we see week in week out from certain players. Only problem with him is whether he is too strict and that in itself might lead to more problems. Players would certainly respect him though and maybe that fear element would return. Hiddink is about 67 now and might not have it in him for such a big job at his age, though I'm sure he could manage a year or so. I think Van Gaal would jump at it.

 

[FineYoungCasual]

I don't think Fergie chose Eriksson at all or had that much input in the decision. In fact, I think he wasn't keen on him.

He probably wanted Strachan instead...

 

[Mersault]

Wasn't Hitzfeld being sounded out to replace Fergie in 2000? At the time he was one of the better managers around Europe. Was Fergie involved then too?

 

[kouroux]

That is low, even your expectations haven't been met.

I know, it hasn't been easy but I realize we don't have the exclusive right to compete for trophies every single season. I don't even wanna think about the rest of the season and all the matches left.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

If we were playing attractive football, then we would be sympathetic, that we know changes are needed next season and then we would improve. However we are playing cowardly football, hiding behind the barricades, except the barricades are being breached constantly. The football seems to be mirroring the image of the manager.

 

[bishblaize]

If we were playing attractive football, then we would be sympathetic, that we know changes are needed next season and then we would improve. However we are playing cowardly football, hiding behind the barricades, except the barricades are being breached constantly. The football seems to be mirroring the image of the manager.

Yeah, agreed. When I look at the football we're trying to play, I have little hope really. Its the football of the underdog, not the big dog.

 

[LonelyFire]

I agree,

I don’t think anyone expects us to play like Barcelona this season, but the way Barcelona, Munich, Real/Atletico Madrid play football is the future, in a way its bringing football back to grass roots, pass and move, keep possession, exploit the oppositions weakness and play to your teams strengths not the oppositions.

Unfortunately our football is as far away from that as you can get, play to the by-line, cross, repeat. We have some very technically gifted players in our squad, we don’t play to their strengths and it’s made us look like a week team, which is far from the truth.

Exactly. What barca do is not new - teams were doing it that way years ago. For a top team, our movement as a unit is pathetic. Moyes does not have the expertise to get this team playing in the manner they should.

One thing is for certain, his replacement wont be a gamble like he was - club will go with proven quality.

 

[Empire]

How do Moyes defendants explain choosing Young and Valencia over Kagawa and Januzaj against Olympiakos?

I don't understand the logic in that.

I'm not sure I can agree with them that Moyes is on the level of an Aberdeen Ferguson, Porto Mourinho, Dortmund Klopp, Athletico Simeone and I am sure there are many more examples.

Even then, we are a top club. We don't even need to target a young, up and coming manager.

I just find it hard to believe this summer there will not be better managers then Moyes available. It's as if Moyes ability of providing stability is more important than winning trophies.

It's simple.

Stable manager that can win things if available. Alternatively Director of Football who will provide the stability and ensure the future success of the club combined with a head coach that comes in and gets the most out of the current team.

The former option is preferred but such managers are rare and like Klopp will probably stay at their own club due to their desire to be a one club manager. The latter option is feasible and ensures investments are made in youth, youth players are developed, players are signed whilst managing finances well and signed players fit a footballing philosophy and team for the future (preventing a manager signing players for short term success at the expense of long term gain).

Clearly the football club requires stability however a manager is not the only way to achieve this.

 

[Kaos]

I don't buy the stability argument. Ironically, opting for the 'stable' choice in Moyes has had the opposite effect with the club's league position in freefall, fan confidence at all time low, share prices dropping dramatically and now reports of the dressing room being lost. Who would have thought the 'loyal' and 'stable' option would have destablised our club.

 

[Rowem]

I'm not sure I can agree with them that Moyes is on the level of an Aberdeen Ferguson, Porto Mourinho, Dortmund Klopp, Athletico Simeone and I am sure there are many more examples.

Wtf?

 

[MoskvaRed]

Wtf?

I think he is trying to counter the arguments of the few remaining Moyes apologists that appointing Klopp or Simeone would be an equivalent gamble to the appointment of Moyes (or that appointing the 2004 version of Mourinho or the 1986 version of Fergie was an equivalent gamble). That is the two time Bundesliga winning, CL runner up Klopp, the UEFA cup and CL winning Mourinho and the Cup Winners Cup and Od Firm duopoly- breaking Fergie - as opposed to a bloke who won the 3rd division with Preston and finished fourth 9 years ago.

 

[Rowem]

I think he is trying to counter the arguments of the few remaining Moyes apologists that appointing Klopp or Simeone would be an equivalent gamble to the appointment of Moyes (or that appointing the 2004 version of Mourinho or the 1986 version of Fergie was an equivalent gamble). That is the two time Bundesliga winning, CL runner up Klopp, the UEFA cup and CL winning Mourinho and the Cup Winners Cup and Od Firm duopoly- breaking Fergie - as opposed to a bloke who won the 3rd division with Preston and finished fourth 9 years ago.

Who has said this?

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Heard some reporter on the radio the other night suggest that Ferguson had selected Moyes as far back as '08. Wonder if there's any truth to it.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Who has said this?

I don't know - maybe you should ask him what he meant rather than rely on my interpretation. But there was certainly someone questioning Klopp's qualifications earlier (unaware he had won anything and being under the apparent impression BVB are some small club), and the incredibly tedious "Fergie needed time" argument is regularly trotted out despite the vastly different circumstances of United in 1986 vs 2013.

 

[Gladiator]

You're overstating their influence - saf and bobby.

There is not a chance in hell the glazers will let their cash cow continue to depreciate in value. The value drop was in the back if a decision made by saf and bobby - the same mistake wont be made again.

They are a lot of things, the glazers, but stupid ain't one. Every media outlet is now running with the "12 games to prove it" - that's briefed by Woodward....which is directly from the glazers.

That's not true though. The guardian have taken a completely different angle to that. How do we know that's been briefed by Woodward anyway? Maybe I am overstating SAF's influence but when you bring someone to your house and tell them they're going to the next Man United manager, that seems to suggest some high influence. I wouldn't be surprised if we still remain with Moyes even if we underperform for the rest of the season. It's becoming farcical

 

[Rowem]

I don't know - maybe you should ask him what he meant rather than rely on my interpretation. But there was certainly someone questioning Klopp's qualifications earlier (unaware he had won anything and being under the apparent impression BVB are some small club), and the incredibly tedious "Fergie needed time" argument is regularly trotted out despite the vastly different circumstances of United in 1986 vs 2013.

I did ask him what he meant.

I see lots of people making references to bizarre things like this people have said in Moyes' defence, but I don't see it for myself. People are either making it up or blowing it hugely out of proportion IMO.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Heard some reporter on the radio the other night suggest that Ferguson had selected Moyes as far back as '08. Wonder if there's any truth to it.

That would actually have made more sense (although not totally logical). It's Everton's stagnation since 2009 (when they fluked past our B team in the semi-final) that should have set alarm bells ringing.

 

[JaffyJoe]

That's a fair point and it might help get a couple of Dortmund players to boot . .

One can only wish

 

[Tomalonge]

Who was that Moskva, I'm still a Moyes supporter and even I think that's ridiculous.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I did ask him what he meant.

I see lots of people making references to bizarre things like this people have said in Moyes' defence, but I don't see it for myself. People are either making it up or blowing it hugely out of proportion IMO.

Fair enough but the substance of his post is hard to argue with - as one of the world's 4 biggest clubs, we should be aiming a bit higher than "did a decent job at Everton".

 

[FineYoungCasual]

I don't buy the stability argument. Ironically, opting for the 'stable' choice in Moyes has had the opposite effect with the club's league position in freefall, fan confidence at all time low, share prices dropping dramatically and now reports of the dressing room being lost. Who would have thought the 'loyal' and 'stable' option would have destablised our club.

Quite a few of us really.

Loads of intelligent United fans viewed Moyes' appointment as a massive and dangerous gamble from the get-go.

I started a thread in September/early October down in the new members forum calling for Top 6 predictions and dozens upon dozens of people correctly predicted our current reality.

It was just so painfully obvious that employing a perennial 2nd tier manager who'd never tasted blood (silverware) to run the big, red beast and compete against Mourinho, Wenger and Man City was never, ever gonna work.

It was a negligent decision to say the least.

I think the media buzz-phrases 'safe pair of hands', 'cut from the same cloth', 'continuity' etc that were endlessly drilled out from June - September did a lot to hoodwink a fair number of fans initially. But it was just just hype.

 

[Raoul]

I don't buy the stability argument. Ironically, opting for the 'stable' choice in Moyes has had the opposite effect with the club's league position in freefall, fan confidence at all time low, share prices dropping dramatically and now reports of the dressing room being lost. Who would have thought the 'loyal' and 'stable' option would have destabilized our club.

The long term stability argument only works if Moyes had a reasonably good start to his United tenure. If we were in 3rd of 4th, battling it out with the likes of Chelsea, City, Arsenal, and Liverpool - that would probably have been seen by most as a decent start that could be built on through time, momentum, and transfers this coming summer. Unfortunately for everyone, few predicted the calamitous, cringeworthy mess that we've witnessed this year, which has basically destabilized the club far more than an Abramovich style yearly swapping of managers could have done. Fergie deserves much of the credit for this.

 

[Kaos]

Quite a few of us really.

Loads of intelligent United fans viewed Moyes' appointment as a massive and dangerous gamble from the get-go.

I started a thread in September/early October down in the new members forum calling for Top 6 predictions and dozens upon dozens of people correctly predicted our current reality.

It was just so painfully obvious that employing a perennial 2nd tier manager who'd never tasted blood (silverware) to run the big, red beast and compete against Mourinho, Wenger and Man City was never, ever gonna work.

It was a negligent decision to say the least.

I think the media buzz-phrases 'safe pair of hands', 'cut from the same cloth', 'continuity' etc that were endlessly drilled out from June - September did a lot to hoodwink a fair number of fans initially. But it was just just hype.

Preaching to the choir.

Funny enough the whole 'cut from the same cloth' quote came directly from the club and not the media.

 

[Kaos]

The long term stability argument only works if Moyes had a reasonably good start to his United tenure. If we were in 3rd of 4th, battling it out with the likes of Chelsea, City, Arsenal, and Liverpool - that would probably have been seen by most as a decent start that could be built on through time, momentum, and transfers this coming summer. Unfortunately for everyone, few predicted the calamitous, cringeworthy mess that we've witnessed this year, which has basically destabilized the club far more than an Abramovich style yearly swapping of managers could have done. Fergie deserves much of the credit for this.

Precisely, which is why the whole 'stability' argument has fallen flat on its face.

A lot of caftards, the media and senior club figures wouldn't have wanted Jose because he allegedly would have only given us 3-4 years max. Wonder how many would revisit that opinion.

 

[JaffyJoe]

He may be a poor man manager - but it seems he had no issues at Everton. He was there for long enough and the players seemed to lie and respect him - he also got more out of a team than the sum of its parts.

Martinez has had success there immediately, but he had a strong settled and decent squad Moyes built over a number of years.

I suspect half the issue here is that the players are struggling to cope with Fergie not being there as they are suddenly under the microscope more than they were. They also know that big changes are imminent and a lot are either playing for their future, or know they are moving on at the end of the season. He's also had to deal with ructions from Rooney and other players with a couple of years left whose agenst want to know what's happening and whether they need to start looking for a new club. All that could have a big effect on morale, have players unsettled ands make Moyes job ten times harder.

Managing your own players islikely to be easier than managing somebody elses, especially when those players previously had the greates manager of all time in charge. As it is, we're in transition a number of our star players now probably moving on.

Yes. A few good points in there RR.

That team is firmly in a rebuilding phase, that would have made things harder for Moyes. Remember he would have been sort of like a Fergie figure to the players at Everton too, a long time manger, his imprint was all over the place. He was also one of the most respected managers in the league. What he did at Everton is not enough to get the respect of our players. We have no idea how he played it, but I have a feeling he tried to do a Benitez at Inter and it just didn't work.

Martinez is using mainly a Moyes defence but the attack and midfield is all him, they are playing nice football, the kind of stuff Moyes' teams never replicated. With the players we have I just don't see it being a stretch that he wouldn't have AT LEAST had us playing better football. Maybe the results would not have been much better (I doubt that too) but the fans would have been able to cope with a man with vision. Lie someone stated earlier Moyes seems to be playing 'percentage football' this team has reached a new multiple times this season. That lays at the feet of Moyes.

He talked of giving everyone a chance, which he didn't and he just lacks balls imo. Own up, be a man about it. He has pointed the finger so often that the times when we really had bad luck mainly Stoke that excuse was already played out.

How about Moyes' tactical failings? The football is dire right now, there has been no improvement in that regard.

I assume you still want to give him more time.

He was a risky appointment and I just don't think it will work out.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Who was that Moskva, I'm still a Moyes supporter and even I think that's ridiculous.

It was Drummer earlier this afternoon who was coming out with the strange comments on Klopp. As for Fergie, we have all heard the "Fergie needed time too" justification. As regards Mourinho, I don't recall any comments to that effect so maybe Empire, as refracted through me, was over-egging the pudding. Simeone - I am not 100% convenced yet so I didn't use him as an example.

As for Moyes, what are the grounds for you being a supporter? That's not meant aggressively, I am just genuinely curious at to how you think he can still turn it round.

 

[scorgasm]

I've noticed a lot of people are now saying they never thought he was the right man. That has changed in the last month or so, notably since the Fulham and Olympiakos games. Of course, it's fundamentally because people want to tow the whole "told you so" line.

Anyway, it made me think what position in the league would be acceptable for Moyes? If we assume that most United fans now want him out, if he was third let's just say behind Manchester City and Chelsea and we were playing terrible stuff, would you still want him out? I think the answer is probably yes, people would but nobody will admit to it. A lot of you never wanted him and regardless of results would have wanted him out anyway (unless we were top and doing well in the cups).

I'd give him until December myself. If things have not improved by December, then it's time to get somebody new (and proven) in. They will then have the January transfer window and the summer to shape the team as they please. That would be two years of obscurity. Not ideal but it's the position we find ourselves in.

Also, does anybody know how the Glazer's run their American sports team? Do they have a track record of firing/hiring? Just curious as I know very little about that.

 

[bishblaize]

Martinez is using mainly a Moyes defence but the attack and midfield is all him.

We on the other hand have a Fergie defence and a Moyes midfield and attack

 

[LonelyFire]

That's not true though. The guardian have taken a completely different angle to that. How do we know that's been briefed by Woodward anyway? Maybe I am overstating SAF's influence but when you bring someone to your house and tell them they're going to the next Man United manager, that seems to suggest some high influence. I wouldn't be surprised if we still remain with Moyes even if we underperform for the rest of the season. It's becoming farcical

He would have had that influence but value of their asset is now impacted - they will take actions themselves. As for it being briefed by Woodward - it just so happened to come on back of CL defeat when Woodward would have been on same flight plan as many manchester hacks....they've all went with similar stories because its came from the same person.

The Mirror, Independent, The Sun, and Telegraph have all went along the same lines - he's effectively now on probation. He will not survive past the city/pool games.

 

[LonelyFire]

Quite a few of us really.

Loads of intelligent United fans viewed Moyes' appointment as a massive and dangerous gamble from the get-go.

I started a thread in September/early October down in the new members forum calling for Top 6 predictions and dozens upon dozens of people correctly predicted our current reality.

It was just so painfully obvious that employing a perennial 2nd tier manager who'd never tasted blood (silverware) to run the big, red beast and compete against Mourinho, Wenger and Man City was never, ever gonna work.

It was a negligent decision to say the least.

I think the media buzz-phrases 'safe pair of hands', 'cut from the same cloth', 'continuity' etc that were endlessly drilled out from June - September did a lot to hoodwink a fair number of fans initially. But it was just just hype.

Correct. Those who know me on here know I was saying same things - even when discussing SAF replacement prior to the announcement.

 

[Crackers]

He would have had that influence but value of their asset is now impacted - they will take actions themselves. As for it being briefed by Woodward - it just so happened to come on back of CL defeat when Woodward would have been on same flight plan as many manchester hacks....they've all went with similar stories because its came from the same person.

The Mirror, Independent, The Sun, and Telegraph have all went along the same lines - he's effectively now on probation. He will not survive past the city/pool games.

I hope to go you're right.

 

[LR7]

Heard some reporter on the radio the other night suggest that Ferguson had selected Moyes as far back as '08. Wonder if there's any truth to it.

My Dad swears by this and points to the team we put out in the FA cup semi in '09 as evidence that he was trying to help Moyes to his first trophy. I always told him he was talking rubbish. I never ever thought Moyes would be our manager though. He'd be quids in if he had put a bet on Moyes becoming our next manager back then.

I can't see it being a last minute decision though because when weighing up our options, apart from longevity and Scotishness Moyes doesn't outperform many of those who would have been rival candidates.

 

[Pexbo]

Right now it's a much bigger gamble on the clubs future and "stability" sticking with Moyes than it is sacking him and bringing in proven quality.


Bringing in a top quality manager now would breath a huge sigh of relief through this squad and would give a lot of the quality players having second thoughts and looking for an exit this summer something to think about.

The time is now to sack him. Give everyone a lift and get that positive atmosphere back in the club for the upcoming Champions League second leg. Bring the belief back.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I've noticed a lot of people are now saying they never thought he was the right man. That has changed in the last month or so, notably since the Fulham and Olympiakos games. Of course, it's fundamentally because people want to tow the whole "told you so" line.

Anyway, it made me think what position in the league would be acceptable for Moyes? If we assume that most United fans now want him out, if he was third let's just say behind Manchester City and Chelsea and we were playing terrible stuff, would you still want him out? I think the answer is probably yes, people would but nobody will admit to it. A lot of you never wanted him and regardless of results would have wanted him out anyway (unless we were top and doing well in the cups).

I'd give him until December myself. If things have not improved by December, then it's time to get somebody new (and proven) in. They will then have the January transfer window and the summer to shape the team as they please. That would be two years of obscurity. Not ideal but it's the position we find ourselves in.

Also, does anybody know how the Glazer's run their American sports team? Do they have a track record of firing/hiring? Just curious as I know very little about that.

We are way beyond the question of whether 3rd or fourth is acceptable (personally I think 3rd would have been reasonable, although even that represents a downgrading of expectation - I would have expected a genuine title challenge under Mourinho). The issue is lack of progress in performances, or, even more worryingly, regression. Our form since New Year is more "reach 40 points to survive" rather than that of reigning champions. Although we don't have a mole, it looks like several of the players have given up on him and I fear the rest of the season will not be any better. In brief, he has not earned the right to more time either through past achievement or in the last 8 months. There is no reasonable grounds for belief that he can win the title or the CL - sure, we will get better if we hire $200 million of new signings over the summer but then anyone could do that, and we would still have a manager liable to be out-thought in the big head-to-head matches.

 

[Tomalonge]

It was Drummer earlier this afternoon who was coming out with the strange comments on Klopp. As for Fergie, we have all heard the "Fergie needed time too" justification. As regards Mourinho, I don't recall any comments to that effect so maybe Empire, as refracted through me, was over-egging the pudding. Simeone - I am not 100% convenced yet so I didn't use him as an example.

As for Moyes, what are the grounds for you being a supporter? That's not meant aggressively, I am just genuinely curious at to how you think he can still turn it round.

I would go into it mate but I don't want to get dragged into this on here again. I think you can search for my posts in certain threads and I've posted in most Moyes threads, hope you find them interesting at least.

 

[LonelyFire]

I hope to go you're right.

There has been a clear sea change in opinion on Moyes - both in fans and the media. Club then release stories saying he's safe but has to show improvement - coincidence? Nope.

Also have to consider fact that he clearly doesn't have the support of sections of the squad. They are not stupid and will understand that the manager is on the ropes - do we suddenly expect they will improve their performances? I fully expect the opposite....they will get worse. They know what's at stake and will take advantage. We may not like it but unfortunately player power will win.

 

[Crackers]

I'm going to hide my head in the sand until May so.

 

[dev1l]

There has been a clear sea change in opinion on Moyes - both in fans and the media. Club then release stories saying he's safe but has to show improvement - coincidence? Nope.

Also have to consider fact that he clearly doesn't have the support of sections of the squad. They are not stupid and will understand that the manager is on the ropes - do we suddenly expect they will improve their performances? I fully expect the opposite....they will get worse. They know what's at stake and will take advantage. We may not like it but unfortunately player power will win.

Hope not.... considering that 5 or 6 senior players could be on their way out next season. I m not a prophet but I cannot see someone coming in making miracles for these reasons:

- a number of players have already their minds turned up on the WC
- others know that by the end of the season they ll be gone so they lack motivation and nothing could change that
- I cannot see any other manager gaining the same respect as Fergie had on the squad (not even Fergie himself), especially on the senior players
- biggest mistake was done during the summer - the clear out should have started then but it was very difficult for a new manager to get rid of "champions" plus Woody fecking up things.