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RobinLFC

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He apparently turned down more money from the Steelers to learn under Brees and Payton, with an outlook at a starting job at a great team once Brees called it a day. Would've had an easy path to the Steelers starting job as well though, but I guess it definitely makes sense for him.


Had to laugh at this one though.
 

Rado_N

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He apparently turned down more money from the Steelers to learn under Brees and Payton, with an outlook at a starting job at a great team once Brees called it a day. Would've had an easy path to the Steelers starting job as well though, but I guess it definitely makes sense for him.


Had to laugh at this one though.
That’s a superb stat :lol:
 

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Draft grades before you see them play in the NFL are an exercise in futility and sort of pointless, but I sort of like them anyway.

Winners: Vikings, Cowboys, Ravens, Cards, Bengals
Losers: Packers, Packers fans, Aaron Rodgers


 

HTG

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Draft grades before you see them play in the NFL are an exercise in futility and sort of pointless, but I sort of like them anyway.

Winners: Vikings, Cowboys, Ravens, Cards, Bengals
Losers: Packers, Packers fans, Aaron Rodgers


I still struggle to understand that draft by the Packers. Not in the sense that I’d have acted differently, but in the sense that I genuinely can’t fathom the thought process going into this draft.
 

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This is by far the most excited I have been to be a Dolphins fan since....ever
 

HTG

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McCaffrey a D+ draft pick?
Yeah. There’s no value in a running back picked that high. I’m not doubting his ability, though. He’s a tremendous player. But drafted far too soon.
 

Rado_N

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Yeah. There’s no value in a running back picked that high. I’m not doubting his ability, though. He’s a tremendous player. But drafted far too soon.
Generally agree about the idea of drafting a RB too early, but there’s no chance that justifies a D+ grading.
 

HTG

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Generally agree about the idea of drafting a RB too early, but there’s no chance that justifies a D+ grading.
Why not? It’s a horrible reach that makes no sense from a cap perspective, ambition wise or any other way. It’s almost impossible for a player at that position to ever justify the value invested in him. You might as well draft a punter in the third round. It doesn’t matter how good he turns out, it doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t represent value.
 

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Yeah. There’s no value in a running back picked that high. I’m not doubting his ability, though. He’s a tremendous player. But drafted far too soon.

If the player is top quality then you get him. The past five RBs taken top 10 (Barkley, Fournette, McCaffery, Zeke, and Gurley) have all done very well, in fact you'd have to go back 8 years to find the last bust in Trent Richardson.
 

HTG

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If the player is top quality then you get him. The past five RBs taken top 10 (Barkley, Fournette, McCaffery, Zeke, and Gurley) have all done very well, in fact you'd have to go back 8 years to find the last bust in Trent Richardson.
Johnny Hekker is one of the best players to ever play his position. Where would you draft him now, knowing how good he is?
 

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Johnny Hekker is one of the best players to ever play his position. Where would you draft him now, knowing how good he is?
This can be applied to any good player. All we can do is look back at recent history to see how good these guys turned out to be and make smart decisions based on it. If 5 out of the past 6 RBs have been very good, then we will continue to see RBs getting taken top ten if the teams/GMs need to strengthen at the position.
 

HTG

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This can be applied to any good player. All we can do is look back at recent history to see how good these guys turned out to be and make smart decisions based on it. If 5 out of the past 6 RBs have been very good, then we will continue to see RBs getting taken top ten if the teams/GMs need to strengthen at the position.
I‘m asking where you’d draft him, if you knew for sure that he would be that good. Would it be a wise decision, just hypothetically, to pick him first overall? After all, he’s a generational talent at his position. Maybe the best, there ever was.
 

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I‘m asking where you’d draft him, if you knew for sure that he would be that good. Would it be a wise decision, just hypothetically, to pick him first overall? After all, he’s a generational talent at his position. Maybe the best, there ever was.
It would depend on the specific needs of the team and which positions the GM and staff prioritized before the draft. Punters, kickers, and long snappers would probably not be #1 priorities for any team, so to answer your original question, no.
 

HTG

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It would depend on the specific needs of the team and which positions the GM and staff prioritized before the draft. Punters, kickers, and long snappers would probably not be #1 priorities for any team, so to answer your original question, no.
Why wouldn’t they be a priority, though?
I mean, which team wouldn’t want Johnny Hekker?
 

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Why wouldn’t they be a priority, though?
I mean, which team wouldn’t want Johnny Hekker?
Because punters, placekickers, returners, and longsnappers are ancillary players. They only play once every few dozen plays and wouldn't warrant the sort of investment teams typically make in high first round picks. There's a massive difference between justifying a massive contract on a player who may see the field on about 5-6 plays per game and one who will see the field about 120-140 times in a game.
 
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HTG

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Because people like punters, placekickers, returners, and longsnappers are ancillary players. They only play once every few dozen plays and wouldn't warrant the sort of investment teams typically make in high first round picks. There's a massive difference between justifying a massive contract on a players who may see the field on about 5-6 plays per game and one who will see the field about 120-140 times in a game.
So different positions carry a different value. And that’s the case with running backs. Just because we’re used to seeing them being drafted at the top of the first round, doesn’t mean it’s not complete idiocy. Their production is easily replaceable and their rookie contracts are extremely expensive compared to other players at the position. They also have short careers and are often injured. There’s no value in running backs at the top of the draft. It’s simply bad business. Like drafting a punter high. It doesn’t matter how good they are, teams are better off for drafting them late or not at all and invest in more valuable positions. Players like CMC, Gurley, Barkley and Zeke can be as good as they want, it just doesn’t matter. They were all drafted too high.
 

Eboue

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Because punters, placekickers, returners, and longsnappers are ancillary players. They only play once every few dozen plays and wouldn't warrant the sort of investment teams typically make in high first round picks. There's a massive difference between justifying a massive contract on a player who may see the field on about 5-6 plays per game and one who will see the field about 120-140 times in a game.
taking the 10 ten running backs by snap count, they averaged 53 snaps per game. mccaffrey was first with 66.
 

RobinLFC

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McCaffrey is an A+ player at his position but he was a D+ (ish) draft pick.

The two teams in the Super Bowl last year had UDFAs as their starting RBs.
 

lsd

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If the player is top quality then you get him. The past five RBs taken top 10 (Barkley, Fournette, McCaffery, Zeke, and Gurley) have all done very well, in fact you'd have to go back 8 years to find the last bust in Trent Richardson.

Do running backs win you a superbowl though ? I rate Barkley a lot probably better than Zeke even but he has made no difference to the Giants .

Zeke got a huge contract last season on top if the huge contract he was already on and Cowboys still finished nowhere and to be honest he looked little better than Tony Pollard a lot if the time who came in the 6th round of the draft i think .

I have always felt Running backs are way overrated in terms of actually winning you things . I would rather trust in a top quality Quarterback and Reciever as far as offence goes
 

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Do running backs win you a superbowl though ? I rate Barkley a lot probably better than Zeke even but he has made no difference to the Giants .

Zeke got a huge contract last season on top if the huge contract he was already on and Cowboys still finished nowhere and to be honest he looked little better than Tony Pollard a lot if the time who came in the 6th round of the draft i think .

I have always felt Running backs are way overrated in terms of actually winning you things . I would rather trust in a top quality Quarterback and Reciever as far as offence goes
Ultimately, its a team game so it would be hard to make the case that any one position wins you a SB - and I would include QBs in that as well since we've had backup QBs repeatedly lead their teams to SB wins over the years.

As for RBs - very good ones are pivotal in accomplishing two of the main objectives all head coaches want to achieve - wearing opposition defenses down by controlling the line of scrimmage and being able to control the clock down the stretch. No one other than Centers and QBs touch the ball more, so for me its hard to make the case that they are in any way overrated, especially when we are now seeing players like McCaffery and Barkley eclipsing or coming near 1000 yards rushing and 100 receptions in the same year.
 

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Chris Jones had 1 fumble forced, 1 fumble recovered and 6 passes deflected. Blake Bell had 15 receptions. Its absurd that the Chiefs are putting the franchise tag on Jones, he barely even touches the ball.
 

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If the player is top quality then you get him. The past five RBs taken top 10 (Barkley, Fournette, McCaffery, Zeke, and Gurley) have all done very well, in fact you'd have to go back 8 years to find the last bust in Trent Richardson.
He played against my high school and I remember not being impressed with him. It was then I knew he'd have a hard time in the NFL.
 

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Draft grades before you see them play in the NFL are an exercise in futility and sort of pointless, but I sort of like them anyway.
Losers: Packers, Packers fans, Aaron Rodgers
:lol: Yup. But funny seeing it written down

Thanks. Would have thought it's tough to say whether a 20 year old will be good enough come 22 as they change so much. No-one had Joe Burrow as no.1 pick a year ago?

And from what I've read, Love's not deemed special, so why not see what 2021 brings, though I realise each year is a year closer to Rodgers end and that's a gamble.

Lots of reports saying some top QBs next year (Justin Fields, Trevor Lawrence... probably means something to college football watchers) and they might have a higher draft no next year (Vikings apparently had a good draft) or trade up.

Complicated?
Im guessing there is a thought process that Packers wont be getting one of those QBs unless they tanked this season. Which would take some doing, but even then, they still picked a QB so yeah :lol:
Im guessing they want Love there to watch and learn the playbook. It does seem the draft was with the intention of long-term planning away from rodgers and moving to a more running game, and when needed, look for Rodgers to hit Adams to make the big gains (but thats a risk as you then hope others can exploit space once Adams is double teamed)

Its all going to be hard to see the plan until it plays out I guess, if there is one.
 

RobinLFC

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Is it? Seems pretty meaningless in and of itself.
You don't need a WR in the first round to be great or win (Adams was a 2nd or 3th round pick IIRC) but it does show the Packers' unwillingness to surround Rodgers with elite talent.

I don't know what percentage of first round WRs is considered a success in the NFL vs WRs in the later rounds though. If that is basically the same, then yeah it might not matter much.
 

Rado_N

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You don't need a WR in the first round to be great or win (Adams was a 2nd or 3th round pick IIRC) but it does show the Packers' unwillingness to surround Rodgers with elite talent.

I don't know what percentage of first round WRs is considered a success in the NFL vs WRs in the later rounds though. If that is basically the same, then yeah it might not matter much.
Well Jordy Nelson springs to mind as an elite receiver who Rodgers linked up with and he was a second rounder.

The premise of the tweet is reliant on draft rounds as an indicator of talent, which kind of falls apart when Brady was drafted in the 6th round (and Brees in the 2nd).
 

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You don't need a WR in the first round to be great or win (Adams was a 2nd or 3th round pick IIRC) but it does show the Packers' unwillingness to surround Rodgers with elite talent.

I don't know what percentage of first round WRs is considered a success in the NFL vs WRs in the later rounds though. If that is basically the same, then yeah it might not matter much.
This may be true to an extent as long as Aaron Rodgers is your QB, but how many teams such a luxury ?

Also, the NFL has in recent years become a very pass heavy league, so it would make sense for teams to prioritize drafting WRs, which is why so many were chosen in the 1st round.
 

RobinLFC

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The premise of the tweet is reliant on draft rounds as an indicator of talent, which kind of falls apart when Brady was drafted in the 6th round (and Brees in the 2nd).
There are always outliers (late bloomers or lack of opportunity in college), but I think draft rounds are definitely an indicator of talent.

This is a comparison between Pro Bowlers taken in the 1st round vs Pro Bowlers in 2nd, 3th and 4th round combined:

2011: 16 vs 10
2012: 14 vs 15
2013: 12 vs 15
2014: 17 vs 8
2015: 10 vs 9
2016: 11 vs 13
2017: 10 vs 11
2018: 8 vs 6
2019: 2 vs 1

A lot of times, the upper half of the first round is stacked with Pro Bowlers (and perennial All-Pros), while the other category mainly consists of high 2nd round picks and some additional 3th round ones.
 

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So different positions carry a different value. And that’s the case with running backs. Just because we’re used to seeing them being drafted at the top of the first round, doesn’t mean it’s not complete idiocy. Their production is easily replaceable and their rookie contracts are extremely expensive compared to other players at the position. They also have short careers and are often injured. There’s no value in running backs at the top of the draft. It’s simply bad business. Like drafting a punter high. It doesn’t matter how good they are, teams are better off for drafting them late or not at all and invest in more valuable positions. Players like CMC, Gurley, Barkley and Zeke can be as good as they want, it just doesn’t matter. They were all drafted too high.
As mentioned before, if its a quality player and the team has a strong need at the position, then they are likely to pull the trigger irrespective of which round, and especially if the player may be instead picked up by a rival in the same division. This would apply more to "high skill players" like QB, RB, WR, an Edge Rushers than others, and with special teamers prioritized the least for the aforementioned reasons.

The entire "RB's shouldn't be drafted in the top 10" narrative is more so a debate among aspiring twitter statisticians and online/tv pundits than it is among professionals who actually make these decisions with their own jobs on the line. The GMs and coaches who have access to far more data and analytics continue to draft the best players on the board relative to positional needs.
 

Rado_N

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There are always outliers (late bloomers or lack of opportunity in college), but I think draft rounds are definitely an indicator of talent.

This is a comparison between Pro Bowlers taken in the 1st round vs Pro Bowlers in 2nd, 3th and 4th round combined:

2011: 16 vs 10
2012: 14 vs 15
2013: 12 vs 15
2014: 17 vs 8
2015: 10 vs 9
2016: 11 vs 13
2017: 10 vs 11
2018: 8 vs 6
2019: 2 vs 1

A lot of times, the upper half of the first round is stacked with Pro Bowlers (and perennial All-Pros), while the other category mainly consists of high 2nd round picks and some additional 3th round ones.
2019 figures are very interesting!
 

RobinLFC

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2019 figures are very interesting!
Nick Bosa and Josh Allen as top 10 picks vs Mecole Hardman as mid 2nd round, although I think he was picked as punt returner instead of WR.

Last year's first round looks very weak in hindsight, although there's room for improvement of course.
 
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