Ole in? Some surprising stats that reveal another side to Solskjaer's management performance

[Plant0x84]

Ole’s signed Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho and went backwards. We aren’t genuinely challenging while he’s our manager.

5-1 vs Leeds was our best performance so far this season . That was pre Ronaldo and pre Varane. Yes our performances have slipped, and we have had some disappointing results but you are making absolutely zero allowance for new players settling into the squad and the team learning to play together. Varane is learning a new league and style of play. Playing with CR7 up top is totally different to how we have been playing with inverted forwards and no central target man (martial always goes left).
Get Marcus back into form, get the new lads settled and our form will improve.

 

[the chameleon]

We can’t win every game, that’s just a fact of life. Sometimes the opponent is better, you get lucky calls and unlucky calls. Sometimes we are just shite. It happens. But I don’t believe we’re consistently shite, and the stat in OP proves it.
I don’t happen to think losing a European final 19-20 on sudden death penalties, finishing 2nd in the league or keeping pace at the top of the table this time around in mediocre.
And who gets paid to support their team? That sounds like an excellent gig…..
Maybe my opinion is different to yours, and just maybe it’s a little bit silly to take that difference so personally?

You’re contradicting yourself here. You just told someone to support Liverpool because they disagreed with you.

If you make statements, people will call you out. Simple. It’s not taking personally.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Your major differences are Liverpool during the transition were one of the best teams in Europe to watch along with Monaco and Tuchels Dortmund. You could see the progress and what they would become and I believe they dropped off badly later in the season due to sheer exhaustion and not being able to maintain the intensity they had started earlier in the season.

Nobody as such would be that worried about Ole and our position now if the performances over the last two seasons looked like they were heading somewhere. That is the problem, he had plenty of good will because of who he is and he still receives plenty of it but it’s getting really hard to turn a blind eye to the fact this team isn’t improving.

 

[Plant0x84]

Obviously it does not matter what he does, on a United forum there will always be someone underestimating him

Classic case of "If he walks over water, people will say he can't even swim"

This thread isn’t about doing Klopp down, he is clearly a brilliant and charismatic coach. But the purpose of the comparison is to show Ole isn’t as bad as everybody thinks. Klopp is the poster boy for comparison purposes, and Ole compares favourably. That’s all this is.

 

[youngrell]

Well, it does, actually. That's why SAF wasn't sacked early in his tenure. Turned out pretty well.

That was more to do with the board knowing the work being done behind the scenes and keeping the faith, was it not?

Probably more akin to what's going on at the moment. If what you're suggesting was true, Mourinho would probably be still here (or at least given longer).

 

[redshaw]

The issue with Manchester United is not based on individual quality, it's based on all the aspects the coaches are supposed to influence such as the shape, patterns, organisation, defensive positioning etc.

We have had ample opportunity to sign a midfielder and opted for other positions including signing youngsters that don't even play. Klopp had tried to VVD the year before and failed as he knew he was a missing piece. We signed VDB and don't play him so clearly we have no idea what the "missing piece" is and seem to just be going with the flow.
they came 4th in his 1st full season

Yeah I know, I've said what you've said many times for months and more and it was a rhetorical question for those wanting Ole to stay or assuming the club will back Ole. I've also gone on to explain I doubt that would work and laid out how these stats are misleading in the post you quoted.

 

[JPRouve]

This is actually a bad comparison for Ole. Klopp's first season and in particular the first months were very patchy in terms of results while Ole's first months were very successful. Just an example during the first 10 league games Liverpool won 4 games and had 3 lossess while United won 8 games and had 2 draws. The trajectories are opposite, one improved while the other regressed.

 

[imamuppet]

Stats prove everything unless they indicate Ole is decent. Then stats are meaningless.

Why can’t some of you get behind the manager and the team you profess to support? it is genuinely bizarre the need for anger and negativity from some here.

They need the dopamine fix so bad

 

[captaincantona]

This is actually a bad comparison for Ole. Klopp's first season and in particular the first months were very patchy in terms of results while Ole's first months. Just an example during the first 10 league games Liverpool won 4 games and had 3 lossess while United won 8 games and had 2 draws. The trajectories are opposite, one improved while the other regressed.

This suggests what we all know to be true...good feelings round the club, right characters and passion...will only get you so far. At some point...an actual style of play has to develop in order to win games consistently. Over the past 3 years we have scraped so many wins through a piece of brilliance or straight out luck...our performances have stayed consistently hit and miss and I would argue that a vast majority of the “hits” (minus Leeds games and the freak Southampton result) we’re playing counter attacking football.

It’s clear after 3 years that is Ole’s forte and I would ask any fan on here to name 3 games in the last 3 years in which we came up against a deep sitting side and actually played well for the majority of the game, creating chances and winning convincingly. I can’t do it.

Oles talk of progression is based on league position. While it’s a barometer- no one could honestly say it’s an accurate one for where we really are either at PL or CL level. He has reached his full potential imo.

 

[JPRouve]

This suggests what we all know to be true...good feelings round the club, right characters and passion...will only get you so far. At some point...an actual style of play has to develop in order to win games consistently. Over the past 3 years we have scraped so many wins through a piece of brilliance or straight out luck...our performances have stayed consistently hit and miss and I would argue that a vast majority of the “hits” (minus Leeds games and the freak Southampton result) we’re playing counter attacking football.

It’s clear after 3 years that is Ole’s forte and I would ask any fan on here to name 3 games in the last 3 years in which we came up against a deep sitting side and actually played well for the majority of the game, creating chances and winning convincingly. I can’t do it.

Oles talk of progression is based on league position. While it’s a barometer- no one could honestly say it’s an accurate one for where we really are either at PL or CL level. He has reached his full potential imo.

While I don't disagree with your general point, it's important to debunk the idea that it's a question of style of play, it's not. It's about having the correct answers to occuring problems, Klopp changed his style, he changed his tactical approach, his Liverpool team doesn't play and isn't organized like his Dortmund team and he also tinkered his team depending on the characteristic of his players when he found the correct formula he stuck with it but he didn't actually impose his previous tactics to Liverpool players and he didn't stuck with things that didn't work.

 

[romufc]

Oles talk of progression is based on league position. While it’s a barometer- no one could honestly say it’s an accurate one for where we really are either at PL or CL level. He has reached his full potential imo.

I find this quite interesting. Ole used league position as his barometer for progress, will he use the same standards then if we finish 5th? Will he say he has regressed?

No, he will come out with a bunch of excuses like he always does. He keeps using unavailable players as an excuse, as if he doesn't have a big squad.

He has also forgotten that we enter in 4 competitions, he can't get out the CL groups, he cant win a trophy, he can't play good football.

 

[UnsungHero]

This comparison is always good for a laugh.

Let's start with Ole's previous managerial history compared to Klopp. No real comparison there, Klopp achieved a lot more at a much higher level.

In Klopp's next 123 league games (after these stats), he won 283 points at an average of 2.30 per game, up from 1.88.

Liverpool went to the next level.

By contrast, Ole is actually improving his squad, but performances and now results are going backwards.

The joy of it all.

 

[RUCK4444]

they did this ages ago and Neville acknowledged the huge coaching performance difference was down Klopps limited investment in comparison. No manager has had more to invest than Ole since he took over and has a team of nearly world stars. We should not be comparing ourselves to Liverpool. Should be more City. They also made the CL final whilst we may not get out of our group.

World stars? What world stars has Ole signed excluding last summer? Maguire? AWB?

You can say Bruno but we had no competition for him so he was hardly nailed on to have the impact he’s had, and on that point what we are good at is pointing out how managers like Klopp have bedded players in and brought them on to another level, well that’s exactly what Ole did with Bruno.
Unless it’s another case of ‘Bruno bailed Ole out’ instead of giving the manager any credit for identifying the player and helping him hit the ground running and even go to another level like he has.

Yes Liverpool bought extremely well and had the best coach in the world to bed them in. That should make this stat more impressive, not less.

I’m literally trying not to defend Ole here but the double standards on things like these stats and spending etc irks me because it doesn’t bode well for the next manager either.

 

[red4ever 79]

Points per game in the PL

2018-19 1.9

2019-20 1.74

2020-21 1.95

2021-22 1.75

Win % in all comps

2018-19 55.2

2019-20 54.1

2020-21 57.4

2021-22 45.5

Goals per game in all comps

2018-19 1.6

2019-20 1.8

2020-21 2.0

2021-22 1.7

Goals conceded per game in all comps

2018-19 1.2

2019-20 0.8

2020-21 1.1

2021-22 1.3


Semi Finals Won 1/5

Finals Won 0/1

Trophies Won 0

Clearly there is no progression this season. We have gone backwards in all areas. The end to last season and beginning to this is pretty bad actually when you look at it like that. People are now moving the goalposts and saying if Ole gets top 4 it will be a success. With the outlay and players at his disposal he must challenge this year for the league and champions league.

 

[captaincantona]

While I don't disagree with your general point, it's important to debunk the idea that it's a question of style of play, it's not. It's about having the correct answers to occuring problems, Klopp changed his style, he changed his tactical approach, his Liverpool team doesn't play and isn't organized like his Dortmund team and he also tinkered his team depending on the characteristic of his players when he found the correct formula he stuck with it but he didn't actually impose his previous tactics to Liverpool players and he didn't stuck with things that didn't work.

Completely agree...that is what I was getting at.

When we have the ball around the opponents box we seem to move it so slowly and look for that one incisive pass to allow one of the big guns to get a shot off. By style of play I meant a more co-ordinated and consistent way of attacking and finding ways to score. Ole seems to leave this up to the individuals to figure out as opposed to any well drilled alternatives.

 

[Lemon Moon]

Ole > Klep (Klopp & Pep love child)

 

[VivaJesperBlomqvist]

How about this stat?

I have lost count on how many times I have fallen asleep while watching Ole's United.

Klopp play exciting modern attacking football right from the start. After 3 years, Ole still can't implement a style of play let alone attacking football which he promised when promoted from interim to permanent manager.

You say this is an almost sardonic manner, but I have genuinely fallen asleep watching us so many times. I was sock on in the second half against Everton. I can’t keep watching us go to the wing, then full back, then slow down, then shit pass, then players stop still, then lose the ball and hope for a fast counter next time.

 

[Daengophile]

There once was a story of Ole and Klopp
Where Klopp was the maestro
And Ole was plop
As the season wore on it was turned on its head
With Ole at the wheel
And the duo McFred

Only joking!

 

[Coxy]

Klopp had worst players (in that era) than us so hardly surprising?

He inherited a much worse team - and had less money than us to improve it too.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Reminds me of some other stats I saw this week: 'Average points per match of Dutch Barcelona coaches in La Liga'

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

The guy who posted this works for Opta. So the fact that there was a 2 point per win system back in the day is taken into account.

Is this the Rinus Michels that many consider to be better than even Fergie?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Was about to post something similar but was too lazy to post actual stats. I’d like to see a comparison of first 81 vs second 81 of those 162 games. I’m sure you’d see solid evidence of progression under Klopp and very little under Ole (whose win rate in the first half of his reign was inflated by a spectacular post-Mourinho bounce)

Games 81-162

Klopp – 48 wins, 14 losses, 19 draws (59.2%)

Ole – 43 wins, 19 losses, 18 draws (53%)


Now, let’s also remember that by this stage (162 games) Klopp had a run to the Champions League final, he wasn't getting free wins in the Europa League versus FC Copenhagen, Linz, Granada.

Klopp’s win percentage starting from his third full season (game 156) was on a vertical trajectory, with games 155-162 having a 100% win rate, compared to Ole’s 28.5% win rate for games 155-162.
Klopp would end that season with a 71.7% win rate in all competitions from 53 games, a 97 points Premier League season and Champions of Europe. Ole's currently on a 45.5% win rate for his 3rd full season in all competitions.

"Stats innit"

 

[stefan92]

Is this the Rinus Michels that many consider to be better than even Fergie?

Exactly that one. Just shows how useless these stats are when comparing very different eras. Fergie himself would not win titles with the point totals he got during his title wins, as City and Liverpool raised the bar even more.

This is not meant as a dig on SAF, I absolutely think prime SAF could raise United's level up to that if he was managing today,it is just the evolution and growing gap between absolute top teams and the rest.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Benefited from the 140 Couthino sale and his


The point being Liverpool has also had significant investment in the squad, just offset by big sales. And you had a better squad to work with than Ole when he first started.

 

[Adisa]

A better statistic would be a graph of how the average PPG progressed over the 162 games or a moving average. I seriously wish someone could plot that graph.
I am not totally sure (because it hasn't been done) but I could bet Klopp's chart has an upward curve while Ole's is up and down. That would be a much better use of numbers.

 

[B. Munich]

While that is all true, even a lack of identity or clear overreaching plan does not mean you cant try to move on players who are clearly redundant.

Jones being the prime example. How many starts have he had under Ole? 1? 0? Even with a lack of style or identity i dont see a single scenario where Jones suddenly would become valuable to the team

No philosophy how the club wants to play definitely makes buying players harder. I think also selling is affected as there aren't players who can thrive in system. At United rather individual brilliance and form are important. As these aren't that consistent you always have purple patches where different players outperform like Martial, Bailly, Fred, Pogba or even Lindgard. But these purple patches are rather short lived and followed by longer patches where the same players underperform. However, the purple patches are remembered and people think these players will eventually perform more consistently. So the club hesitates to sell these players. Unfortunately, this won't happen without a clear playing philosophy and system.
Many here believe you are one CB away then one more RB away and now one more DM away. I believe Manchester United has no system and long-term strategy, which is the real problem not the players.
Kovac tried to change the philosophy and system at Munich and failed miserably. Lots of player underperformed. He blamed it on the players famously saying if you have a VW Golf you can't compete with a Porsche.
Then came Flick who reverted this system and the rest is history....

 

[Stacks]

World stars? What world stars has Ole signed excluding last summer? Maguire? AWB?

You can say Bruno but we had no competition for him so he was hardly nailed on to have the impact he’s had, and on that point what we are good at is pointing out how managers like Klopp have bedded players in and brought them on to another level, well that’s exactly what Ole did with Bruno.
Unless it’s another case of ‘Bruno bailed Ole out’ instead of giving the manager any credit for identifying the player and helping him hit the ground running and even go to another level like he has.

Yes Liverpool bought extremely well and had the best coach in the world to bed them in. That should make this stat more impressive, not less.

I’m literally trying not to defend Ole here but the double standards on things like these stats and spending etc irks me because it doesn’t bode well for the next manager either.

I'm more referring to this season. We are expected to kick on with the current players we have not go backwards.

 

[Hansi Fick]

A better statistic would be a graph of how the average PPG progressed over the 162 games or a moving average. I seriously wish someone could plot that graph.
I am not totally sure (because it hasn't been done) but I could bet Klopp's chart has an upward curve while Ole's is up and down. That would be a much better use of numbers.

Why bother though. Something tells me that people actually entertaining this kind of comparison are not meaning to be convinced.

 

[LoneStar]

I'm convinced. Petition to fly this banner over Old Trafford for the Pool game. Gotta show those Ole haters who the real OG is.

 

[MadMike]

Why bother though. Something tells me that people actually entertaining this kind of comparison are not meaning to be convinced.

Pretty much. They're just looking for an obscure stat that puts Ole in the same ballpark as superior managers and then use it as a reason to say "support the manager, if you don't then you're not a real fan".

Conveniently ignoring every single other stat that shows he is well short of the man United need him to be. Any single usable stat outweighs everything else when you're dogmatic.

 

[B. Munich]

This suggests what we all know to be true...good feelings round the club, right characters and passion...will only get you so far. At some point...an actual style of play has to develop in order to win games consistently

Absolutely correct and this philosophy with a clear system is missing. Manchester City, Liverpool, Barcelona, and Bayern all have a philosophy longer-term.
To Ole defense i don't think it's the manager's task to choose and implement the best philosophy for the club but it's the board's responsibility. Simply because the philosophy has to remain even a manager is fired.
Arsenal and Manchester United have this responsibility to their long-term managers for that's why they struggle so much once SAF and Wenger left.

Actually United reminds of Real Madrid between 2002 and 2010 with their galictico approach, which failed miserably despite featuring a team packed with world class talents

 

[ashneel]

If there is a CafGoesIntoMeltdown thread anywhere, this will be gold..

 

[youmeletsfly]

The simple difference between them is that Klopp actually won something while Ole won jack shit and invested a lot more. This should be the end of the discussion.

I know that the initial post was sarcasm, but the comparison is 100% pointless.

 

[MrBest]

5-1 vs Leeds was our best performance so far this season . That was pre Ronaldo and pre Varane. Yes our performances have slipped, and we have had some disappointing results but you are making absolutely zero allowance for new players settling into the squad and the team learning to play together. Varane is learning a new league and style of play. Playing with CR7 up top is totally different to how we have been playing with inverted forwards and no central target man (martial always goes left).
Get Marcus back into form, get the new lads settled and our form will improve.

Ronaldo knows this league and is a generational talent, Varane is world class and Sancho has had a bit role so far. Our style of play is exactly how we played last year so im not sure what adjusting players have had to do. Shaw looks a shadow of last year, Bruno needs a rest already, was massively overplayed last season, Ole still dont rotate his squad.

I get your point, I like your positivity, but times uo for Ole, sooner we take the hit, the sooner we can rebuild our season. This is year 3, he spent 450m plus so far, we are playing like mercenaries still. Excuses no longer hold any substance, in my opinion, that is all we have been giving him for years.

 

[Tom Cato]

Cool. A stat that no one cares about actually.

I'm not going to bother spending time in this thread. But the point is that it compares someone to someone the Caf gives imaginary passionate blowies to every time Mo Salah totally doesnt do individual brilliance.

Please don't take it as a defense of Ole, just as a reminder that comparing someone to someone else is a fun activity and sometimes helpful to get your head out of that cesspool of complaints its currenlty in.

But obviously Klopp is a manager with a significantly better pedigree, no one has ever argued that.

 

[Tom Cato]

constantly on an upward trajectory.

You'll be happy to know what so we been have over the last 3 years Every season better than the last, this one is no different at this stage.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

This suggests what we all know to be true...good feelings round the club, right characters and passion...will only get you so far. At some point...an actual style of play has to develop in order to win games consistently. Over the past 3 years we have scraped so many wins through a piece of brilliance or straight out luck...our performances have stayed consistently hit and miss and I would argue that a vast majority of the “hits” (minus Leeds games and the freak Southampton result) we’re playing counter attacking football.

It’s clear after 3 years that is Ole’s forte and I would ask any fan on here to name 3 games in the last 3 years in which we came up against a deep sitting side and actually played well for the majority of the game, creating chances and winning convincingly. I can’t do it.

Oles talk of progression is based on league position. While it’s a barometer- no one could honestly say it’s an accurate one for where we really are either at PL or CL level. He has reached his full potential imo.

Also the league position was under unusual circumstances. No crowds will have affected some teams. This affected some teams badly, others it was a bonus, the pressure was off them. Don't think the Varane signing was a problem, but adding Ronaldo could become a big problem, especially as he now has Cavani as well.Sancho is notorious for slow starts to the season. I also think he need freedom, which Ole isn't giving him. Klopp built his team to fit his system. We just sign who they think will make the fans happy, even though it is making us completely dysfunctional.

 

[flappyjay]

Some surprising stats that show how Ole compares to the almighty Klopp after 162 games...and lo and behold, the Norwegian has a higher win rate.

Can we also see how much money each manager had spent by that 89nth game?

 

[Flexdegea]

The funny thing about right now is the folk who all want rid of Ole ASAP, will literally be saying the same points people are saying about Ole right now, to defend the new manager in 6 months time..........and the vicious circle will keeping going round and round.


Until we actually have a proper plan in place, I'm not sure sacking right now is a wise option if it's just to bring in anyone.


Let's see how the next month pans out, and we access it from there.

 

[RUCK4444]

I'm more referring to this season. We are expected to kick on with the current players we have not go backwards.

We are indeed but we are to a large extent trying to force 3 players into our starting 11 with next to no bedding in time, one of which provides zero energy, this is highlighting the issues in midfield as we've nothing to hold it all together and are so weak through the middle.

 

[sugar_kane]

"Red Cafe experts HATE him, stat number 6 will SHOCK you..."