There are many, many great managers out there, and I'm not saying Solskajer does or does not belong to that category, however, there's only 4 trophies up for grabs at any one season and usually the teams that have spent the most and had consistency and continuity tend to win them regularly.
Of course not, but there are normally (if not always) signs that show there's something quite special there. After managing for a decade or so, it's hard to say that about Ole, other than his man management seems to be top notch. Whatever the case, this season is obviously a huge one for him.
How is it unfair? He's won 3 trophies in 11 years. That's a very poor record for an 'elite' manager. Also, it's not as easy as saying he wasn't playing at a team that had the level to compete because the level of the league is was far lower.
Because who has he managed in that time to actually win a major trophy? It's like saying Pochettino has managed since 2009, what has he won?
Not straight at jumping in to being manager of the biggest club in the world you dont no, you have to prove yourself first, achieve something with a smaller team in a big League, thats the opportunity you get, unless you are an ex united player that is.
A Molde team which since his inclusion should have been there or thereabouts. He won a few trophies with them, to then suggest they're not good enough to win silverware goes against that fact. Unless you're suggesting that the trophy win was purely down to the team rather than his exploits as a manager? Furthermore, they won the league the exact same year Ole joined us as a manager, did they not? Hardly a promising sign for a manager who supposedly was competing in a team that had no hope of winning silverware.
Modle won the league after spending a tonne of money (for a Norwegian team) which allowed them to recruit better and break the monopoly on the league. They didn't maintain that kind of spend to continue to compete though. He did well with the resources provided and managed to break a monopoly, he's also got a job for life there now as a result.
No, the teams who spend big and have the appropriate coaches to get the most out of the squad win things. Chelsea's squad didn't change at all when Tuchel came in, but they amassed a higher point tally than us in his time, alongside getting to an FA cup final and winning the Champions league. Given how their circumstances were looking before Tuchel joined, no-one would have guessed they'd finish as strongly as they did.
There were plenty of signs that he could step up early in his career. His performances with our reserves were drawing plenty of plaudits on this very same forum back in the late noughties/early 10s. He then broke Rosenborg's monopoly when he went to Molde and when he returned from Cardiff he rebuilt the team and set it up for the next man to come in and win the league (which he absolutely would have done if not for Utd coming calling in 2018).
I agree we overpay for players who are simply not the best. I don't know what the reason is.
Agreed.
Pochettino transformed Southampton, and built a very exciting side that overperformed based on talent and resources available. At Tottenham, he also came very close, built a very strong team and helped propel many players to great heights like Kane and Son Heung-min. We can see how much Tottenham are regretting their decision to sack him and how they've fallen backwards from the accomplishments he brought to that football club. At PSG, he already has 2 trophies in half a season and has a phenomenal win percentage rate. Of course now he has frightening resources available, so we can fully expect him to make use of these resources.
Agreed but I’m not saying we should have got rid. I’m simply saying that I think a one year contract with one year possible extension made more sense when this is such a pivotal season. We finished 5 points ahead of Liverpool who were without their best player and had a truly terrible season. I don’t think last year was as cut and dried as some think. Ole did a good job yeah. But I don’t think it’s proof that we’re the second best team in England. It was exceptional circumstances that we just handled better than most and had fewer injuries despite not really rotating. I think this season is a big test and if he did well this year with a good squad fair enough. But 1+1 made more sense in terms of not having to pay off if he fails.
I don't think that's true at all. I think it's because he's not looked like he's a tactically progressive manager who can read games as they go and react quickly and proactively. And people are waiting to see if he has that within him, to show courage and transmit that to his team and elevate it beyond the sum of its parts (which is what great managers do, even before they get their big breaks in management). He still seems to me to be conservative and reactive, despite the talk by him and the club. The man management side has been great, the atmosphere has been majorly improved, but the football is still not at a level and I keep thinking about how much of a difference Bruno has made through his extraordinary stats.
Well said. The issue is the lack of progressive football. We aren't seeing signs of football that elevate the level of the squad, we are still very much dependent on our individual ability. The argument was always he would need better players - but when Klopp and Pep joined their respective teams, even though the players weren't good enough to win, the football they were going for was very evident. They then signed the players which turned that football into trophies. We are still very much a pragmatic team under him, regardless of what some say. A team with our resources etc. shouldn't have to sit back and counter against any team that can play football, shouldn't have to look laboured and predictable in our passing and movement, shouldn't have a terrible, unorganised press. These are all issues that are specific to coaching and management, not calibre of player.
If that is the case, then what does that say for the 18 other managers in the league last season, or the 17 other managers the season before? Even if it is true, and tbh I don't believe it is to the extent that you hold it to be, does it actually matter? At the top level, man management goes a heck of a long way further towards having sustained success than tactical acumen does. Just look at Pep's CL record, and compare it to Zidane's: which one would you rather have? If the likes of Sancho and Varane are tempted and persuaded by the project we have (of which Ole is absolutely the sole visionary of, btw) then quite frankly who the feck are we to poo poo it? Even the very best tactical managers need the tools to ensure their systems work. Klopp's Liverpool were going nowhere and were reaching their plateau of 4th until fate intervened and Barca gave them £150m for Coutinho, which was reinvested into Alisson, VVD, and Fabinho, to add to their clever purchase of Salah, and to a lesser extent Mane (I say lesser extent, because to me, he was an obvious player to get, and I couldn't believe how many on here were turning their noses up at him when we were linked the season before). Yet, for all the good that Klopp has done, when just one or two of those important cogs were missing, his team went to absolute shit without them in circumstances that were much less trying for his team than they were for others (of which we are the best example of).
Let's wait till Ole has signed 11 players for the starting XI, he should have the chance to build his team.
A dead team requires a new team. It's not rocket science to understand which ones are deadwood and which ones are not deadwood after being given many years of chances.
He already has. Only players he hasn't signed or given a contract extension to in our first eleven are Shaw and Fred, and I'm sure that'll be in the pipeline this season.
Don't be condescending mate.
Great post.
Let's strawman a strawman, strawman. Strawman!
The initial argument on that was that Ole keeps bottling up. If the club is investing heavily this year then that had to change. Klopp won a league title and a CL title with Liverpool. So honestly I can't see why he keeps popping up into arguments to defend someone who till now had been a serial loser.
Sorry, I forgot the white text.
I don't think that there are anyone who doesn't like Ole. Even Roy Keane likes him and he acts like a pitbull with rabies whose been mistreated for all his life and has been left to starve for 3 days.
Great & fair post.
What?! You already told me there’s no ifs, buts or maybes. What’s the point in dialogue when you’ve already decided.
Firstly I don't think three years is a long contract.
Like Pep did?
and Zidane?
How are you judging his coaching ability? It is, probably, the one aspect of a manager's skillset that is most difficult to judge from the outside. You have no idea what goes on the training field and similarly what other managers can or can not do. What has been perfectly evident, however, is the immense improvement in Shaw, Rashford, Fred, Lindelof and McTominay, to name a few. But I guess that's not due to coaching, probably just a change in diet?
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If he is unable to read games how come we were the best team in the PL when it comes to comebacks? Is there a better measurement than that?
You judge a manager's coaching ability by the trophies they've won and their ability to implement a particular style. Approaching 3 years in and we are still a pragmatic team who struggle to break down low blocks and result in counter attacking against any decent side. Coupled with the fact that he hasn't won a trophy in like 7 years, despite playing in a very low quality league - and we can start to get an idea of the approach we'll have with Ole
So, judging by the trophies, Klopp should've been sacked after 3 seasons with Liverpool, right?
Great post.. You enlighten a perspective many people seem to disregard.
We finished second due to the level of other teams, our point tally has us 4th or 3rd most seasons, Chelsea under Tommy accumulated more points than us since his arrival, Liverpool with a whole 9 players to choose from all season were on our tails for a good part of the season.
That was a lot to dig into. Let's just say that my view isn't so favourable, where everything is counted to his benefit, such as LVG being a top class manager, he wasn't then, and it's questionable whether the squads previously were better than what Ole had - for one thing, you don't want a bloated squad with overpaid players as it's harder to man manage. Ole sold some, and lost Herrera whom he'd presumably kept given the choice, as his preferred functional midfield was Herrera - Matic - Pogba.
