Ole & United vs. Frank & Chelsea: who will have the better season?

Yagami

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Is it not true that the manager wanted these players gone?

It was not as though Ed said sell Lukaku, Sanchez to get Maguire?
You're right, and Ole has to take his fair share of the blame, too. I said at the time it was daft of him to sell if we had no replacements lined up, but I do wonder what our spending limit was in regards to how much Ed would've been willing to spend for Ole in the window just gone as we could've spent a lot more than we did.
 

romufc

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You're right, and Ole has to take his fair share of the blame, too. I said at the time it was daft of him to sell if we had no replacements lined up, but I do wonder what our spending limit was in regards to how much Ed would've been willing to spend for Ole in the window just gone as we could've spent a lot more than we did.
There was clearly an option to sign one player that we did not take. Bruno Fernandes. A player wanting to leave, £60m would have got him and not many teams challenging us for him. The club inc Ole thought he is not good enough. A player who can shoot from distance and good at set pieces and can play CAM. What are we lacking the most?
 

Yagami

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There was clearly an option to sign one player that we did not take. Bruno Fernandes. A player wanting to leave, £60m would have got him and not many teams challenging us for him. The club inc Ole thought he is not good enough. A player who can shoot from distance and good at set pieces and can play CAM. What are we lacking the most?
Right now it feels like everything!
 

Sterling Archer

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Exactly, it is all about coaching. The funny thing is Ole keeps telling us he trusts youth.. but this isn't exactly true. From our young team, McT, Rash, Martial, Shaw were all established prior to Ole's arrival.

James is a new signing and AWB and the later is proven in PL.

He has given Greenwood a chance but apart from that, no one really. Gomes and Chong have been getting chances in EL and the cup.

Everyone keeps telling me Greenwood is too young he is only 18 and it isn't the right environment to start? But it is the right environment to use him after 60 mins?

Lampard has given the youth confidence - Mount, Tomori, Abraham in particular.

Mount and Abraham were criticised at OT and Lampard stuck with them, I don't think Ole is giving the same confidence to our youngsters because they all seem to think every opportunity they get they need to impress hence force things that are not natural to them.
Your first line says it all.

Lampard motivated a Championship side quite well. He may not have won anything but he showed the ability to get a team playing his way and elevate them.

Ole has not done that in a comparable environment. His time at Molde is not the same and his spell with Cardiff was bereft of any positives. The run with United as an interim manager had more to do with Jose leaving than Ole being there.

If we put our United bias aside, I think deep down most of us knew Lampard was the better manager. And that we would be in trouble sooner than later.
 

romufc

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Your first line says it all.

Lampard motivated a Championship side quite well. He may not have won anything but he showed the ability to get a team playing his way and elevate them.

Ole has not done that in a comparable environment. His time at Molde is not the same and his spell with Cardiff was bereft of any positives. The run with United as an interim manager had more to do with Jose leaving than Ole being there.

If we put our United bias aside, I think deep down most of us knew Lampard was the better manager. And that we would be in trouble sooner than later.
I think most of us knew it going into the summer after the end to our season.

But Ole's words and hope kept us going over the summer and into the first few games and missed penalties was something we were hiding behind.

It is not clear to see he is a poor manager who got the job way too early and now the only way out is to get sacked but the board will look too incompetent if they sack him too early.

This is because there is alot of Ex united players who are biased towards Ole because he is a nice guy and played with him.

If I saw improvement in the football, I would back him but at the moment why would you ? Nothing he does suggests he will improve?
 

AshRK

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It may be a bit prematurish but I have to say Lampard has turned around amazingly. I was critical of his style in the sense he lacked the defensive organisation but he is playing according to the strength of his attackers. Kudos to him
 

charlenefan

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Exactly, it is all about coaching. The funny thing is Ole keeps telling us he trusts youth.. but this isn't exactly true. From our young team, McT, Rash, Martial, Shaw were all established prior to Ole's arrival.

James is a new signing and AWB and the later is proven in PL.

He has given Greenwood a chance but apart from that, no one really. Gomes and Chong have been getting chances in EL and the cup.

Everyone keeps telling me Greenwood is too young he is only 18 and it isn't the right environment to start? But it is the right environment to use him after 60 mins?

Lampard has given the youth confidence - Mount, Tomori, Abraham in particular.

Mount and Abraham were criticised at OT and Lampard stuck with them, I don't think Ole is giving the same confidence to our youngsters because they all seem to think every opportunity they get they need to impress hence force things that are not natural to them.
Apples and Oranges when comparing Chelsea's 'young' players to ours though. Abraham, Mount and Tomori all 21 years old and above (ok Mount is 3 months away from 21). Compare that Greenwood, Gomes and Chong all 19 and below. All 3 of Chelsea's players have had seasons worth of first team experience (granted at a lower level) whereas all our 3 players have ever known is under 23's and below. The Chelsea players are simply ready for PL football whereas ours are not

The fact we're having to rely on so many 19 year old's is a massive feck up by the club
 

amolbhatia50k

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I'm seeing from Lampard what I wanted to see from Ole. He looks a promising young manager (albiet small sample size). Ole appears to be a disaster.
 

Josep Dowling

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Apples and Oranges when comparing Chelsea's 'young' players to ours though. Abraham, Mount and Tomori all 21 years old and above (ok Mount is 3 months away from 21). Compare that Greenwood, Gomes and Chong all 19 and below. All 3 of Chelsea's players have had seasons worth of first team experience (granted at a lower level) whereas all our 3 players have ever known is under 23's and below. The Chelsea players are simply ready for PL football whereas ours are not

The fact we're having to rely on so many 19 year old's is a massive feck up by the club
This is a big point that a lot of people are missing. Chelsea's youngsters are way further into their development than ours and that's why our youngsters look out of depth whilst Mount, Abraham and Tomori are flourishing.
 

UweBein

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Not backed? He spent nearly £150 million!
The rebuilding job at United is immense. There is so much deadwood, I can't believe Mata, Rojo, Fred, Matic, Lingard are still playing for the club.

Fans really need to get over this not backed thing, we spent the 2nd most in the transfer window.
It was a massive rebuilding job... and it still is. Hence, why I say that he was not backed enough....
 

romufc

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The rebuilding job at United is immense. There is so much deadwood, I can't believe Mata, Rojo, Fred, Matic, Lingard are still playing for the club.
Yes it is but it was the managers decision to keep Fred, Lingard, Mata. Matic is there for numbers only and so is Rojo.

Ole loves Lingard since the time he was reserves manager.
 

Cassidy

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This is a big point that a lot of people are missing. Chelsea's youngsters are way further into their development than ours and that's why our youngsters look out of depth whilst Mount, Abraham and Tomori are flourishing.
They wouldn't be flourishing at our club under Ole. Maybe Lampard is actually a good manager
 

romufc

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Apples and Oranges when comparing Chelsea's 'young' players to ours though. Abraham, Mount and Tomori all 21 years old and above (ok Mount is 3 months away from 21). Compare that Greenwood, Gomes and Chong all 19 and below. All 3 of Chelsea's players have had seasons worth of first team experience (granted at a lower level) whereas all our 3 players have ever known is under 23's and below. The Chelsea players are simply ready for PL football whereas ours are not

The fact we're having to rely on so many 19 year old's is a massive feck up by the club
Okay so Mount is 20, Reece James is 19, Hudson Odoi is 18.

Gomes and Greenwood are 18. But I guess it is a huge difference because 2 of them are actual starters for Chelsea. Gomes, Greenwood are squad players for us.
 

charlenefan

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Okay so Mount is 20, Reece James is 19, Hudson Odoi is 18.

Gomes and Greenwood are 18. But I guess it is a huge difference because 2 of them are actual starters for Chelsea. Gomes, Greenwood are squad players for us.
James and Odoi have barely featured this season so not sure why you're mentioning them?
 

romufc

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James and Odoi have barely featured this season so not sure why you're mentioning them?
I said 2... Mount is a starter and now that Hudson Odoi is back he has been starting.. He was injured and has come straight into the team at 18.

Lampard actually has the cojones to drop a Pulisic, Pedro, Willian who of one is a £50m signing, and other 2 have been good performers compare to Ole who cannot drop his golden boy Rashford.

If Ole was true to his word about trusting youngsters he would have dropped Rashford by now.
 

Orc

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James and Odoi have barely featured this season so not sure why you're mentioning them?
Tbf, both have just come back from long term injuries within the past two weeks.

Both will play huge roles this season. CHO already has a goal and 3 assists, James a goal and an assist. Won't be long before they're both nailed on starters.
 

3KDré

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Lampard actually has the cojones to drop a Pulisic, Pedro, Willian who of one is a £50m signing, and other 2 have been good performers compare to Ole who cannot drop his golden boy Rashford.

If Ole was true to his word about trusting youngsters he would have dropped Rashford by now.
Mate what are you on about? Our starting striker, Martial is injured. Lampard would never and should ever start Mason Greenwood up top for Chelsea. He has a relatively experienced striker up top who has proven he can score goals. Lampard has the balls to drop those 3 wingers because he has a lot more options than Ole. If Ole drops Rashford he has a 17 year old kid in Greenwood. If he drops Pereira he has to start either the same kid or Chong who is simply not good enough. He drops Matic and he has Fred. Lampard drops Pulisic and he's got Odoi. If he drops Barkley he's got Kovacic both of whom would walk into our team right now. The two scenarios aren't remotely comparable.
 

duffer

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James and Odoi have barely featured this season so not sure why you're mentioning them?
Because they've been out injured until a couple of weeks ago. They've both featured since they were available.
 

romufc

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Mate what are you on about? Our starting striker, Martial is injured. Lampard would never and should ever start Mason Greenwood up top for Chelsea. He has a relatively experienced striker up top who has proven he can score goals. Lampard has the balls to drop those 3 wingers because he has a lot more options than Ole. If Ole drops Rashford he has a 17 year old kid in Greenwood. If he drops Pereira he has to start either the same kid or Chong who is simply not good enough. He drops Matic and he has Fred. Lampard drops Pulisic and he's got Odoi. If he drops Barkley he's got Kovacic both of whom would walk into our team right now. The two scenarios aren't remotely comparable.
You have outdone yourself here.

Martial is our main striker - can you tell me how many games eh has played there for United?

Experienced player in the championship?

And again.. Pulisic what experience? CHO what experience?

What are you talking about experience? CHO has barely played half a season.

Also while you are out there defending Ole's choices - Don't forget Ole is the one who said he trusts the youngsters and that Greenwood is ready. He is 18 btw.

Rashford was a starter at 18..

What happened to age is just a number hey? only when it suits arguments that phrase is used.
 

Bestofthebest

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He has a striker who played in the Championship scoring goals compared to one who has Prem experience.?
I believe Rashford would score goals playing for Chelsea because there are better players in the team/squad but still think he would not score as many as Abraham because he is a "natural" striker. He is not top drawer yet but he will be a better player then Rashford at the end of his career because of this natural talent. Rashford will score goals in a good side but will not be as prolific as Abraham. I think that time in the Championship has helped because you are not under such scrutiny as in the Prem and Rashford is still working out how to handle that pressure. Time will tell who is the better striker but I don't think Lamps could coach Rashford into a better player in a short period of time.
 

TheeAma12

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Guys you need to put things into perspective Chelsea has the best academy in England and one of the best in Europe, they have routinely won trophies both domestically and in Europe to prove that.

Our top players bar Ruben and Callum are sent out on loan at 18 to play first team football Mount, Tammy, Tomori, James, Hudson had the potential to be good squad players this season. With Mount and Tammy we saw that they could push for starting spots due to their time out on loan.

'Compare that with united youngsters where they have no first team football, their potential is rather unknown and the support structure around them is failing. If Tammy performs bad we can throw in Michy or Giroud, If Mount performs bad we have Kova or Barkley can throw in. Who does united have?

Also the pressure is somewhat off of Chelsea this season, Frank has been given time to develop these players and finish top 4 but with the ban we are not favorites for anything. Ole got spent money he has to finish top 4
 
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Champagne Football

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The Chelsea squad man for man is twice better than ours.

Their super kids have already started in The Championship and are ready to explode in the Premier league
Our kids need to go out on loan.

Chelsea have 3 World class players - Kante, Jorginho, Kepa. We only have 1 who has seen a major dip in form in past year.
 

AshRK

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Fans really need to get over this not backed thing, we spent the 2nd most in the transfer window.
Ole is clearly doing a below par job but let us not rewrite history here. He was never backed the way he should have. Our net spend was less than many teams. We signed just 3 players of which one was directly from championship. As weird as it may sound we needed to spend more.
 

romufc

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I believe Rashford would score goals playing for Chelsea because there are better players in the team/squad but still think he would not score as many as Abraham because he is a "natural" striker. He is not top drawer yet but he will be a better player then Rashford at the end of his career because of this natural talent. Rashford will score goals in a good side but will not be as prolific as Abraham. I think that time in the Championship has helped because you are not under such scrutiny as in the Prem and Rashford is still working out how to handle that pressure. Time will tell who is the better striker but I don't think Lamps could coach Rashford into a better player in a short period of time.
Yes the good old if he had better players around him. Rashford is not a striker, he has Pogba, Martial to feed off too and a better back 5.

Why do people use things to suit their argument? Rashford has had 4 years at the top level, playing under pressure, playing world cups so he should be used to this pressure it is nothing new.

He has had the chance to play second fiddle to Rooney, Zlatan and Lukakus so it is clear Rashford is close to hitting his ceiling now.

I am frustrated because I believed he would be a top top player.
 

romufc

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Ole is clearly doing a below par job but let us not rewrite history here. He was never backed the way he should have. Our net spend was less than many teams. We signed just 3 players of which one was directly from championship. As weird as it may sound we needed to spend more.
We may never know what conversations went on with Ole and the board but it was very clear he was after British talent.

There was Bruno Fernandes, Lozano, Ziyech all available but Ole has come out and said the quality and right person was not available. Why do we automatically point the blame to Ed Woodward?
 

Classical Mechanic

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Our top players bar Ruben and Callum are sent out on loan at 18 to play first team football Mount, Tammy, Tomori, James, Hudson had the potential to be good squad players this season. With Mount and Tammy we saw that they could push for starting spots due to their time out on loan.
This is an important point. Tomori's first loan was a disaster, his second of no note and it was only his third where he found his feet and won player of the season.

Tammy was great at Bristol, struggled in in his first season in the PL with Swansea and dropped a level last year to get guaranteed playing time.

Mount was great at Vitesse then he found it a lot harder in The Championship with Derby but playing in such a competitive league was good for him.
 

Pow

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The Chelsea squad man for man is twice better than ours.

Their super kids have already started in The Championship and are ready to explode in the Premier league
Our kids need to go out on loan.

Chelsea have 3 World class players - Kante, Jorginho, Kepa. We only have 1 who has seen a major dip in form in past year.
Nah.
Kante is
Rudigers a top player
Kepa needs huge improvement
Jorginhos had a great start
And willians played himself back in form
The rest are kids or good players.
 

Champagne Football

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Nah.
Kante is
Rudigers a top player
Kepa needs huge improvement
Jorginhos had a great start
And willians played himself back in form
The rest are kids or good players.
Super kids. Tammy Abraham and Mount already look like the new Harry Kane and Frank Lampard. Hudson Odoi looks ready for their first team too. Tomori also looks class. They have a golden generation coming through right now.
In 2 years, Greenwood and Garner should be making the kind of impact that the Chelsea kids are making now.
 

AshRK

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We may never know what conversations went on with Ole and the board but it was very clear he was after British talent.

There was Bruno Fernandes, Lozano, Ziyech all available but Ole has come out and said the quality and right person was not available. Why do we automatically point the blame to Ed Woodward?
You yourself answered the question. Why should I trust this board who has been nothing but incompetent. I am not denying Ole's flaws and maybe he should have kept Lukaku so yes Ole is not blameless but to say he was backed is an incorrect assessment. For a guy who was saying in April that there will be major changes in April to saying we will get 2 or 3 more additions in July after we signed AWB, to just come up with one more player in August doesn't add up. Surely Ole wouldn't have wanted just 3 players after being so vocal back in APril and even in summer.
 

romufc

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You yourself answered the question. Why should I trust this board who has been nothing but incompetent. I am not denying Ole's flaws and maybe he should have kept Lukaku so yes Ole is not blameless but to say he was backed is an incorrect assessment. For a guy who was saying in April that there will be major changes in April to saying we will get 2 or 3 more additions in July after we signed AWB, to just come up with one more player in August doesn't add up. Surely Ole wouldn't have wanted just 3 players after being so vocal back in APril and even in summer.
Yep, then it begs the question, if you want to be back to the top and won't back the manager? why have him as the manager?

Everyone on here knew long term Ole is not the one for us anyway
 

amolbhatia50k

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This is a big point that a lot of people are missing. Chelsea's youngsters are way further into their development than ours and that's why our youngsters look out of depth whilst Mount, Abraham and Tomori are flourishing.
We also have Rashford, Martial, Shaw, Tuanzebe and Periera who are just as far into their careers. James looks pretty hardened as well by the championship.

I'd like to see how Lampard's Chelsea look come the end of the season but he looks to be a very promising young manger. Remains to seen if this is just the start or a strong reflection of his qualities as a coach. Ole after a good early run has looked out of place at this level, really.

What I like about the Lampard is how clearly his team seem to be playing the way he wants them.
 

antihenry

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The rebuilding job at United is immense. There is so much deadwood, I can't believe Mata, Rojo, Fred, Matic, Lingard are still playing for the club.

It was a massive rebuilding job... and it still is. Hence, why I say that he was not backed enough....
They've been rebuilding since SAF left, don't think that could still be used as an excuse. The problem is, they've spent a tremendous amount of money on good, but not great players and a bunch of just shit players. In terms of not getting value for money spent, United are worse off than even us with Morata, Bakayoko,Zappacosta and the like. We're doing better now because the youngsters have adapted surprisingly fast, but it's a long season and it's far too early to predict which side is going to do better by the time season ends.
 

SirReginald

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For those of you who are comparing Chelsea's youth to Uniteds.

It is obvious that our academy is the best in England. The results and ability of the players coming through now speak for themselves. We only supplement our academy with the odd foreign youngster, the rest are scouted and developed locally. You will see more British players coming through our academy in the next few years as evidence of that.

But this is not something that's happened overnight, it's taken 10 years of planning. Roman made it one of his top priorities in the first couple of years to have a sustainable system and not rely so much on his wealth.

The academy is not just developing players, its developing coaches and managers, Roger and Clarke for example and its filled with ex players and players that havent quite made it into professional football. Heck we even had Sam Hutchinson for a while before he came back to play for Sheffield Wednesday.

The loan system has its downsides and in part may be down to revenue for financial fair play however the teams are all scouted and handpicked by a group of coaches, ideally to find a suitable club for that player. Like the one on loan at Charlton and reece James last year.

There is so much more to it than just their age and experience. It's an entire operation in it's own right from the club, professionally managed and bred to give players the best chance to succeed at whatever level they end up at.

This is something that will go beyond the boys in the first team right now and that is something I dont think you are remotely comparable with.
 
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charlenefan

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I said 2... Mount is a starter and now that Hudson Odoi is back he has been starting.. He was injured and has come straight into the team at 18.

Lampard actually has the cojones to drop a Pulisic, Pedro, Willian who of one is a £50m signing, and other 2 have been good performers compare to Ole who cannot drop his golden boy Rashford.

If Ole was true to his word about trusting youngsters he would have dropped Rashford by now.
CHO is 19 next month. He's essentially 2 years older than Greenwood who's just turned 18 (like in the last few days).
 

Vargo Hoat

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I'm surprised by this Chelsea side. Before the season I had them as the weakest of the big clubs and possibly behind Leicester, Wolves and Everton. Lampard seems a good manager though, and it's easy to like this version of Chelsea. Young, english talent playing attacking (albeit naive at times) football. Right now I have them as favourites for 3rd.
 

romufc

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CHO is 19 next month. He's essentially 2 years older than Greenwood who's just turned 18 (like in the last few days).
Essentially 2 years?

are you clinching on days to suit your agenda?

7th November 2000 is Hudson Odoi
1st October 2001 is Greenwood.

if that is essentially 2 years, I must be very bad at maths.
 

charlenefan

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Essentially 2 years?

are you clinching on days to suit your agenda?

7th November 2000 is Hudson Odoi
1st October 2001 is Greenwood.

if that is essentially 2 years, I must be very bad at maths.
I'm the one with the agenda? Seriously? Have you read back what you've been typing?