[spiriticon]

My observation is that he does. The statistics on duels won, ball recoveries and so on show that he does.

However, like all players, Pogba makes mistakes. There will be one or two instances every match where he is not where he is meant to be, or he goes towards the ball when he should hold position. In that he is no different to any comparable #8 in world football today.

Yet with Pogba an inquest always follows. When Spain ship two late goals against Croatia to go into extra time in a game they were controlling, nobody questions if Pedri or Ruiz were doing enough defensive work. Its just accepted that sometimes midfielders, even elite level internationals, make mistakes. Pogba is just judged far more harshly for no real reason.

Perhaps his mistakes are too high profile then. For example, he is an absolute menace in the defensive penalty area. He hasn't quite grasped tactically when it is safe to take a risk and when it isn't. That's why I think if he really is not a natural defender, he is better off further up the pitch in the final third where it is safer to take risks, lose possession and no one notices. He will hate it because high up he can't spray balls around from deep like Pirlo, but it is safer for everybody in the long run.

Bruno loses the ball 1 million times a match but he loses it so high up the pitch it does not matter. Paul gets turned over one time in his own half and its a problem for all.

 

[JPRouve]

Perhaps his mistakes are too high profile then. For example, he is an absolute menace in the defensive penalty area. He hasn't quite grasped tactically when it is safe to take a risk and when it isn't. That's why I think if he really is not a natural defender, he is better off further up the pitch in the final third where it is safer to take risks, lose possession and no one notices. He will hate it because high up he can't spray balls around from deep like Pirlo, but it is safer for everybody in the long run.

Bruno loses the ball 1 million times a match but he loses it so high up the pitch it does not matter. Paul gets turned over in his own half and its a problem for all.

Bruno has lost the ball in our own half a bunch of times when he has regularly been asked to get the ball deep. That's actually a tactically issue that has been highlighted on the caf more than once where some players get rid of the double by putting the likes of Shaw, Pogba or sometimes Bruno into almost impossible situations. AWB used to do that all the time. Now Pogba isn't the most agile player in the world, he isn't built for quick turns and short burst, press resistant midfielders are generally quick with short center of gravity.

 

[#07]

Perhaps his mistakes are too high profile then. For example, he is an absolute menace in the defensive penalty area. He hasn't quite grasped tactically when it is safe to take a risk and when it isn't. That's why I think if he really is not a natural defender, he is better off further up the pitch in the final third where it is safer to take risks, lose possession and no one notices. He will hate it because high up he can't spray balls around from deep like Pirlo, but it is safer for everybody in the long run.

Bruno loses the ball 1 million times a match but he loses it so high up the pitch it does not matter. Paul gets turned over in his own half and its a problem for all.

I think Pogba's mistakes being high profile are because he is high profile.

As I said in an earlier post, part of the issue with Paul is that various people with an interest in marketing him have created this Pogba myth about 'unlocking' him. It makes people have crazy, high expectations of him.

In context, the mistakes he makes defensively aren't so different than the kind of errors that a Veratti or a Koke may make. However, neither Veratti or Koke have Pogba's profile. So their errors are more easily forgotten.

People want Pogba to be something more than what he is. He is a best in class #8. Compare him to any other #8 today and its hard to point to any that are obviously superior to him. That's how I judge him and how I think he should be judged. Expecting him to be like late 90s Zidane and Davids combined into one is where the disappointment comes in. He is not and will never be that.

 

[Harry190]

Apparently was getting torn apart by his colleagues on the field for the same reasons he gets torn apart at United. Everyone was having a go.

 

[spiriticon]

I think Pogba's mistakes being high profile are because he is high profile.

As I said in an earlier post, part of the issue with Paul is that various people with an interest in marketing him have created this Pogba myth about 'unlocking' him. It makes people have crazy, high expectations of him.

In context, the mistakes he makes defensively aren't so different than the kind of errors that a Veratti or a Koke may make. However, neither Veratti or Koke have Pogba's profile. So their errors are more easily forgotten.

People want Pogba to be something more than what he is. He is a best in class #8. Compare him to any other #8 today and its hard to point to any that are obviously superior to him. That's how I judge him and how I think he should be judged. Expecting him to be like late 90s Zidane and Davids combined into one is where the disappointment comes in. He is not and will never be that.

I don't think it's about marketing or expectation at all. The criticism comes because people know he is talented but can't figure what role he has in the team. He isn't good enough defensively to be a #6 so he is criticised, and not good enough offensively to be #10 so he is criticised again. So the easy way out for the fans is to say he is a #8, where he doesn't have to defend as much as a #6 or score as much as a #10. But that leaves a feeling of unfulfillment, so he is criticised.

Another problem is I don't see many teams in the current times needing that sort of player. Is there a real need for another player to play in the line between the CM and AM? It really is adding tactical complexity for the sake of it.

If he is an #8 and ONLY an #8, then I am sad to say that United may not be the best club for him.

Edit: It also doesn't help that he is very patchy player in terms of form, so even if you do play him as an #8 it does not guarantee you a Pogboom performance. So he is criticised again.

 

[thepolice123]

I don't think it's about marketing or expectation at all. The criticism comes because people know he is talented but can't figure what role he has in the team. He isn't good enough defensively to be a #6 so he is criticised, and not good enough offensively to be #10 so he is criticised again. So the easy way out for the fans is to say he is a #8, where he doesn't have to defend as much as a #6 or score as much as a #10. But that leaves a feeling of unfulfillment, so he is criticised.

Another problem is I don't see many teams in the current times needing that sort of player. Is there a real need for another player to play in the line between the CM and AM? It really is adding tactical complexity for the sake of it.

If he is an #8 and ONLY an #8, then I am sad to say that United may not be the best club for him.

You are probably the only one here who can't figure out what is his best role and creating polarising arguments and false narratives.

Its been firmly established that he plays best in a three man midfield as a #8 as shown in this Euros for France.

#8s are everywhere in football, what are you going on about? Kroos, Gundogan, Barella, Tielemans, Sanches, Koke, need I say more?

 

[spiriticon]

You are probably the only one here who can't figure out what is his best role and creating polarising arguments and false narratives.

Its been firmly established that he plays best in a three man midfield as a #8 as shown in this Euros for France.

#8s are everywhere in football, what are you going on about? Kroos, Gundogan, Barella, Tielemans, Sanches, Koke, need I say more?

Polarising arguments and false narratives? Bloody hell. The point is that HE played best in this Euros but to the detriment of his team. He played a firm #6 in the WC and got no plaudits but his team won the World Cup.

Fine fine, I give. Pogba is an amazing #8. His teams always win so much when he plays there.

 

[kouroux]

Polarising arguments and false narratives? Bloody hell. The point is that HE played best in this Euros but to the detriment of his team. He played a firm #6 in the WC and got no plaudits but his team won the World Cup.

Fine fine, I give. Pogba is an amazing #8. His teams always win so much when he plays there.

Firm 6 ? You really sure about that ?

 

[JPRouve]

Polarising arguments and false narratives? Bloody hell. The point is that HE played best in this Euros but to the detriment of his team. He played a firm #6 in the WC and got no plaudits but his team won the World Cup.

Fine fine, I give. Pogba is an amazing #8. His teams always win so much when he plays there.

He didn't play as a 6 at the WC, he was also a #8 and Pogba wasn't a problem for France, Mbappé missing every single chances and doing nothing without the ball or all the left backs getting injured is closer to the truth when it comes to what happened to France.

 

[thepolice123]

Polarising arguments and false narratives? Bloody hell. The point is that HE played best in this Euros but to the detriment of his team. He played a firm #6 in the WC and got no plaudits but his team won the World Cup.

Fine fine, I give. Pogba is an amazing #8. His teams always win so much when he plays there.

Good example of a false narrative right there.

 

[kouroux]

No plaudits too

 

[spiriticon]

Firm 6 ? You really sure about that ?

I watched every match of his and he sat deep and disciplined. I definitely saw his performances more like a 6.

He didn't play as a 6 at the WC, he was also a #8 and Pogba wasn't a problem for France, Mbappé missing every single chances and doing nothing without the ball or all the left backs getting injured is closer to the truth when it comes to what happened to France.

I'm not really here to talk about Mbappe. Yes he let Pogba down more than you can imagine by not scoring his 100 chances. But I'm thinking more of why France's defensive shape was not ideal this tournament. Perhaps the injuries had a toll, but really what I saw was that Pogba was less disciplined. I don't blame him totally for France's exit, but since we here to debate Paul's performances I just say what I see.

 

[spiriticon]

Good example of a false narrative right there.

I just gave you a Guardian link to show you that people can see that when Paul is disciplined, France does better. It is not just a 'false narrative' from me. It is observable.

Jeez you guys are really protective of him. So much so that I now wonder whether I actually hate him now

 

[JPRouve]

I watched every match of his and he sat deep and disciplined. I definitely saw his performances more like a 6.



I'm not really here to talk about Mbappe. Yes he let Pogba down more than you can imagine by not scoring his 100 chances. But I'm thinking more of why France's defensive shape was not ideal this tournament. Perhaps the injuries had a toll, but really what I saw was that Pogba was less disciplined. I don't blame him totally for France's exit, but since we here to debate Paul's performances I just say what I see.

Well if you want to talk about France shape we will have to talk about the front three and in particular Mbappé. Here you are just giving more ammunition to thepolice123 and #07 points, you made up a narrative about the WC and the EURO in order to blame Pogba. Pogba did his job to a good standard unlike some of his teammates who shat the bed, with some them even making Pogba's contribution pointless because they couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo.

 

[spiriticon]

Well if you want to talk about France shape we will have to talk about the front three and in particular Mbappé. Here you are just giving more ammunition to thepolice123 and #07 points, you made up a narrative about the WC and the EURO in order to blame Pogba. Pogba did his job to a good standard unlike some of his teammates who shat the bed, with some them even making Pogba's contribution pointless because they couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo.

Is it really that hard to accept that he played with a lot more control in the WC than in this EUROs? How is that a false narrative? Even his teammates are not happy with his defensive contributions this time round.

I'm not saying he had a terrible Euros. He did not. He was France's best player in attack and I will happily give him the trophy for that. But I'm saying in being so good in attack, he lost other parts of his game that was there in 2018 and that did not help France this time round. Yes, everybody else also had a shitty tournament and that did not help. But that does not absolve Pogba of his share of defensive blame. He is part of the team.

 

[JPRouve]

Is it really that hard to accept that he played with a lot more control in the WC than in this EUROs? How is that a false narrative? Even his teammates are not happy with his defensive contributions this time round.

I'm not saying he had a terrible Euros. He did not. He was France's best player in attack and I will happily give him the trophy for that. But I'm saying in being so good in attack, he lost other parts of his game that was there in 2018 and that did not help France this time round. Yes, everybody else also had a shitty tournament and that did not help. But that does not absolve Pogba of his share of defensive blame. He is part of the team.

You literally said that his game at the EURO was to the detriment of the team, which means that he was responsible for the team not winning compared to the WC which is wrong. Also Pogba had good defensive stats during this EURO and fairly close to his WC stats, so again none of what you say watch with reality.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

What a player, he's an absolute joy to watch in a team that plays with an actual structure and patterns.

france have been absolute rubbish mate ahhahahahahaha

 

[thepolice123]

I think in his mind he has created an image of Pogba from everything he dislikes about the modern footballer. He probably thinks Pogba is an extremely narcissistic footballer and that just being a part of a cup-winning team isn't enough anymore, he wants to take center-stage now.

Come the Euros he sees Pogba sauntering around the pitch doing somberos, nutmegs, rainbow flicks for the cameras and screaming "look at me, look at me!" while France flounders behind, struggling to cover for him defensively as the opposition pour waves of attack upon them.

 

[littleman]

Is it really that hard to accept that he played with a lot more control in the WC than in this EUROs? How is that a false narrative? Even his teammates are not happy with his defensive contributions this time round.

I'm not saying he had a terrible Euros. He did not. He was France's best player in attack and I will happily give him the trophy for that. But I'm saying in being so good in attack, he lost other parts of his game that was there in 2018 and that did not help France this time round. Yes, everybody else also had a shitty tournament and that did not help. But that does not absolve Pogba of his share of defensive blame. He is part of the team.

None of the Pogba fans are having this. Anytime he plays remotely well they come creaming in their pants.. "UNPLAYABLE", "THE BEST" etc.

There's no reason with them. Any slight against the great Poggers is UNFAIR, A FALSE NARRATIVE, CONDITIONALS, RACIST.

"It doesn't matter if Pogba made a mistake, EVERYONE MAKES MISTAKES."

Just utter drivel that even Redcafe staff who are fans of Pogba subscribe to.

 

[spiriticon]

You literally said that his game at the EURO was to the detriment of the team, which means that he was responsible for the team not winning compared to the WC which is wrong. Also Pogba had good defensive stats during this EURO and fairly close to his WC stats, so again none of what you say watch with reality.

Yes, I do think it was to the detriment of the defensive shape of the team. But I never said he was responsible for France not winning jesus christ... A lot of things were detrimental to France this time. Mbappe being shit was one of them too. The left back issue was another.

And although I'm dubious about his defensive stats being as good as WC, I'm talking about being tactically controlled and not taking silly risks, which does not have a stat linked to it.

 

[spiriticon]

I think in his mind he has created an image of Pogba from everything he dislikes about the modern footballer. He probably thinks Pogba is an extremely narcissistic footballer and that just being a part of a cup-winning team isn't enough anymore, he wants to take center-stage now.

Come the Euros he sees Pogba sauntering around the pitch doing somberos, nutmegs, rainbow flicks for the cameras and screaming "look at me, look at me!" while France flounders behind, struggling to cover for him defensively as the opposition pour waves of attack upon them.

Apart from the fact that I've repeatedly stated in this thread that Pogba is the most talented player at United....You can even scroll back 100 pages if you want. It's somewhere there.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes, I do think it was to the detriment of the defensive shape of the team. But I never said he was responsible for France not winning jesus christ... A lot of things were detrimental to France this time. Mbappe being shit was one of them too. The left back issue was another.

And although I'm dubious about his defensive stats being as good as WC, I'm talking about being tactically controlled and not taking silly risks, which does not have a stat linked to it.

Which silly risks did he took that he didn't take at the World Cup? What would you say if I told you that he has the exact same amount of lost possessions per 90 at the Euro and at the WC?

 

[golden_blunder]

I think Pogba's mistakes being high profile are because he is high profile.

As I said in an earlier post, part of the issue with Paul is that various people with an interest in marketing him have created this Pogba myth about 'unlocking' him. It makes people have crazy, high expectations of him.

In context, the mistakes he makes defensively aren't so different than the kind of errors that a Veratti or a Koke may make. However, neither Veratti or Koke have Pogba's profile. So their errors are more easily forgotten.

People want Pogba to be something more than what he is. He is a best in class #8. Compare him to any other #8 today and its hard to point to any that are obviously superior to him. That's how I judge him and how I think he should be judged. Expecting him to be like late 90s Zidane and Davids combined into one is where the disappointment comes in. He is not and will never be that.

He’s not really an 8 though because his best work is passing the ball. He’s not really B2B.
I’m honestly stumped what he would be classed as other than a tactical nightmare

 

[kouroux]

@JPRouve Some people like avoiding asnwering like when doing a euro step.

 

[Jeppers7]

I’ve never seen a player have such a good tournament and be subjected to this level or criticism. It’s completely unwarranted as it is for his performances in the last six months and in general over his time at the club. People seem to be jumping up and down banging the same drum as they do when he has a bad game, and when he has a bad game they bang the drum louder and their mates join in…..and when he has a good game they bang the drum louder and their mates join in.

Get a rest Paul lad, then chose your next club and enjoy. Thanks for some good memories and the only couple of trophies we’ve won for years. All the best.

 

[spiriticon]

Which silly risks did he took that he didn't take at the World Cup? What would you say if I told you that he has the exact same amount of lost possessions per 90 at the Euro and at the WC?

God do I have to watch all his three matches again and point out individual instances? Nah I'd rather not. I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole of criticising his individual positioning and decisions in the 3-3 vs Switzerland or 2-2 vs Portugal. Because no doubt I'd get jumped on by at least 10 of yous and it would be a damn long night.

On the second point, I would say ok but where did he lose it (in his own half?), when did he lose it (was it in a critical moment of a game?) and how did he lose it (did he lose it trying a through ball and it didn't work, or did he get tackled trying to run through 3 players?) And also you seem to use a lot of stats, you sure your source is trustworthy? Every stat site gives different stats.

 

[#07]

He’s not really an 8 though because his best work is passing the ball. He’s not really B2B.
I’m honestly stumped what he would be classed as other than a tactical nightmare

I don't believe an #8 needs to be a box to box player. Paul Scholes in his latter years certainly played as an #8 to Carrick's #6 most of the time and he didn't go box-to-box in his twilight years.

The role of an #8 changes depending on tactics and squad composition. Pogba is not going to be a Paul Ince type #8, box-to-box for 90 minutes. However, he is very much in line with the type of #8 that's common in many teams. For example, in Chelsea's 3-4-3, the two centre midfielders are often Kante and Kovacic. Is Pogba better as an #8 than Kovacic? In my opinion, he's much better.

The problem for Man Utd is what we want/expect/need Pogba to do. For Pogba to play as an #8 our team just needs to be better. For example, having at least one centre back that excel in 1v1 situations against pace. Scholesy had that in 2007 with Rio. Paul doesn't. Therefore it makes more sense for us to have a worker type #8 than what Paul is. However, Paul is undoubtedly one of the best #8's in world football.

 

[saivet]

I’ve never seen a player have such a good tournament and be subjected to this level or criticism. It’s completely unwarranted as it is for his performances in the last six months and in general over his time at the club. People seem to be jumping up and down banging the same drum as they do when he has a bad game, and when he has a bad game they bang the drum louder and their mates join in…..and when he has a good game they bang the drum louder and their mates join in.

Get a rest Paul lad, then chose your next club and enjoy. Thanks for some good memories and the only couple of trophies we’ve won for years. All the best.

Yeah it's crazy really. I thought he was brilliant against Switzerland, while performing to a very high standard in the group games.

While he lost the ball for the equaliser, he received a pass surrounded by Swiss players, with no obvious pass available to him. It was awful from Kimpembe and a brilliant assist from Xhaka. Still a mistake from Pogba but the reaction to it is hugely overblown.

 

[Sir Marcus]

I don't believe an #8 needs to be a box to box player. Paul Scholes in his latter years certainly played as an #8 to Carrick's #6 most of the time and he didn't go box-to-box in his twilight years.

The role of an #8 changes depending on tactics and squad composition. Pogba is not going to be a Paul Ince type #8, box-to-box for 90 minutes. However, he is very much in line with the type of #8 that's common in many teams. For example, in Chelsea's 3-4-3, the two centre midfielders are often Kante and Kovacic. Is Pogba better as an #8 than Kovacic? In my opinion, he's much better.

The problem for Man Utd is what we want/expect/need Pogba to do. For Pogba to play as an #8 our team just needs to be better. For example, having at least one centre back that excel in 1v1 situations against pace. Scholesy had that in 2007 with Rio. Paul doesn't. Therefore it makes more sense for us to have a worker type #8 than what Paul is. However, Paul is undoubtedly one of the best #8's in world football.

I think I agree with this, good post.

Would be interesting to consider what Pogba might’ve played like next to Carrick or even both Carrick/Scholes (with as you rightly say, Rio behind them) - sounds pretty brilliant!

 

[golden_blunder]

I don’t doubt his talent, I doubt that we are the right team for it though. We just can’t find the balance

 

[JPRouve]

God do I have to watch all his three matches again and point out individual instances? Nah I'd rather not. I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole of criticising his individual positioning and decisions in the 3-3 vs Switzerland or 2-2 vs Portugal. Because no doubt I'd get jumped on by at least 10 of yous and it would be a damn long night.

On the second point, I would say ok but where did he lose it (in his own half?), when did he lose it (was it in a critical moment of a game?) and how did he lose it (did he lose it trying a through ball and it didn't work, or did he get tackled trying to run through 3 players?) And also you seem to use a lot of stats, you sure your source is trustworthy? Every stat site gives different stats.

You made a comparison between his performances in two competitions, so I would hope that you can point to silly risks. The third goal from Switzerland comes from a back pass from Benzema to Pogba where he was surrounded by 4 opponents, he didn't take silly risks, if anything Benzema took a calculated risk that backfired mainly because Rabiot and Kimpembe were totally out of position for no good reason.

 

[Heinzesight]

When he came back, most of us thought he’d be the main man for us but the toppest of top Pogba fans need to accept he’s never going to be that guy for us. He’s had a lot of chances and still hasn’t delivered consistently for United. He has a run of three, four decent games or scores a belter and we all get sucked in...but deep down we all know how that run of ‘form’ ends.

Pogba has everything in his locker to be world class but he doesn’t learn from his errors, he hasn’t ironed out the mistakes and elements of his game which negate a lot of the good stuff he does. The split in the fan base tells us all we need to know.

From everything you hear about him, he’s supposed to be a great lad, but there comes a time you just have to cut your losses if you want the team to move on. I just hope we can get a bit of cash for him. The leeches might even put some of the fee into a new lick of paint at OT.

 

[spiriticon]

You made a comparison between his performances in two competitions, so I would hope that you can point to silly risks. The third goal from Switzerland comes from a back pass from Benzema to Pogba where he was surrounded by 4 opponents, he didn't take silly risks, if anything Benzema took a calculated risk that backfired mainly because Rabiot and Kimpembe were totally out of position for no good reason.

Yeah I can, but it would be time consuming for me. And since I'm not Gary Neville and I don't get paid large amounts of cash to dissect his positioning and decisions in great detail all night long and moreover would have to make video clips to make my point clear to all, I'm just going to pass on this one.

In that instance as you mentioned though, I was thinking he could take the safe option of just passing it back to Benzema first time, knowing he was not in a good position himself. But hey ho. BUT before anyone jumps on me again, I don't blame him for that goal. The defence was out of position only because the turnover was so sudden whilst France was on the attack. The fault lies with Benzema for choosing a crowded Pogba to pass to when there were other better options.

 

[Mainoldo]

Yeah I can, but it would be time consuming for me. And since I'm not Gary Neville and I don't get paid large amounts of cash to dissect his positioning and decisions in great detail all night long and moreover would have to make video clips to make my point clear to all, I'm just going to pass on this one.

In that instance as you mentioned though, I was thinking he could take the safe option of just passing it back to Benzema first time, knowing he was not in a good position himself. But hey ho. BUT before anyone jumps on me again, I don't blame him for that goal. The defence was out of position only because the turnover was so sudden whilst France was on the attack. The fault lies with Benzema for choosing a crowded Pogba to pass to when there were other better options.

So Benzema plays it to Pogba because he’s under pressure and Pogba’s first thought is to give it him back under pressure?

Football not your game I take it.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah I can, but it would be time consuming for me. And since I'm not Gary Neville and I don't get paid large amounts of cash to dissect his positioning and decisions in great detail all night long and moreover would have to make video clips to make my point clear to all, I'm just going to pass on this one.

In that instance as you mentioned though, I was thinking he could take the safe option of just passing it back to Benzema first time, knowing he was not in a good position himself. But hey ho. BUT before anyone jumps on me again, I don't blame him for that goal. The defence was out of position only because the turnover was so sudden whilst France was on the break. The fault lies with Benzema for choosing a crowded Pogba to pass to when there were other better options.

Three players were between him and Benzema while the other was behind him. The safe option was an unnatural one and hoof it forward but I don't think that he realized that the player behind him had anticipated Benzema's pass and was ready to tackle the second he touched the ball. In that particular action the problem is first the pass from Benzema who should be wide to Pavard and then the fact that Kimpembe for some weird reason decided to leave Gravanovic and cover the left wing.

 

[thepolice123]

God do I have to watch all his three matches again and point out individual instances? Nah I'd rather not. I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole of criticising his individual positioning and decisions in the 3-3 vs Switzerland or 2-2 vs Portugal. Because no doubt I'd get jumped on by at least 10 of yous and it would be a damn long night.

On the second point, I would say ok but where did he lose it (in his own half?), when did he lose it (was it in a critical moment of a game?) and how did he lose it (did he lose it trying a through ball and it didn't work, or did he get tackled trying to run through 3 players?) And also you seem to use a lot of stats, you sure your source is trustworthy? Every stat site gives different stats.

I daresay most people replying to you aren't even big Pogba fans, just against how ridiculous your statements sound. Yet you refuse to back it up.

Nobody is asking for deep dive to explain your points but you have shown nothing substantial. Which of the goals they conceded was down to poor defensive shape caused by Pogba? France's main issues were dumb mistakes at the back and misfiring strikers, but you chose something which you could conceivably blame Pogba for.

Hungary scored their only clear cut chance of the match after Pavard and Varane got skinned by a player whose name I can't even pronounce.

Two PKs against Portugal. One after Lloris punched someone in the face and handball in no man's land.

Against Switzerland they conceded two headed goals. One was a great cross and one came from a mistake that people here would absolutely destroy Lindelof for. The last goal you have Kimpembe getting skinned by a nobody.

If you are going to do the predictable thing and pinpoint Switzerland's last goal to support your point then look at the previous pages where the discussion has already taken place.

 

[spiriticon]

Three players were between him and Benzema while the other was behind him. The safe option was an unnatural one and hoof it forward but I don't think that he realized that the player behind him had anticipated Benzema's pass and was ready to tackle the second he touched the ball. In that particular action the problem is first the pass from Benzema who should be wide to Pavard and then the fact that Kimpembe for some weird reason decided to leave Gravanovic and cover the left wing.

I agree.

Look I'm not blaming him for that 3rd goal.

 

[JPRouve]

I daresay most people replying to you aren't even big Pogba fans, just against how ridiculous your statements sound. Yet you refuse to back it up.

Nobody is asking for deep dive to explain your points but you have shown nothing substantial. Which of the goals they conceded was down to poor defensive shape caused by Pogba? France's main issues were dumb mistakes at the back and misfiring strikers, but you chose something which you could conceivably blame Pogba for.

Hungary scored their only clear cut chance of the match after Pavard and Varane got skinned by a player whose name I can't even pronounce.

Two PKs against Portugal. One after Lloris punched someone in the face and handball in no man's land.

Against Switzerland they conceded two headed goals. One was a great cross and one came from mistake that people here would absolutely destroy Lindelof for. The last goal you have Kimpembe getting skinned by a nobody.

Getting skinned would have been acceptable, he literally run away from the only attacker.

 

[spiriticon]

I daresay most people replying to you aren't even big Pogba fans, just against how ridiculous your statements sound. Yet you refuse to back it up.

Nobody is asking for deep dive to explain your points but you have shown nothing substantial. Which of the goals they conceded was down to poor defensive shape caused by Pogba? France's main issues were dumb mistakes at the back and misfiring strikers, but you chose something which you could conceivably blame Pogba for.

Hungary scored their only clear cut chance of the match after Pavard and Varane got skinned by a player whose name I can't even pronounce.

Two PKs against Portugal. One after Lloris punched someone in the face and handball in no man's land.

Against Switzerland they conceded two headed goals. One was a great cross and one came from mistake that people here would absolutely destroy Lindelof for. The last goal you have Kimpembe getting skinned by a nobody.

Do you only think of poor defensive shape when a goal is conceded? And bloody hell.. I'm not saying it's ALL Pogba's fault that France cannot defend. Can we take the extremes out of this? This is a Pogba thread so I discuss what Pogba could do better.

In the Benzema thread, maybe I say that he should have chosen a better pass.

In the Kimpembe thread, maybe I say that he's better off on the bench.

Chill.

 

[#07]

When he came back, most of us thought he’d be the main man for us but the toppest of top Pogba fans need to accept he’s never going to be that guy for us. He’s had a lot of chances and still hasn’t delivered consistently for United. He has a run of three, four decent games or scores a belter and we all get sucked in...but deep down we all know how that run of ‘form’ ends.

Pogba has everything in his locker to be world class but he doesn’t learn from his errors, he hasn’t ironed out the mistakes and elements of his game which negate a lot of the good stuff he does. The split in the fan base tells us all we need to know.

From everything you hear about him, he’s supposed to be a great lad, but there comes a time you just have to cut your losses if you want the team to move on. I just hope we can get a bit of cash for him. The leeches might even put some of the fee into a new lick of paint at OT.

I think this is where the problem comes in.

People expected Pogba to be something he is not or never will be.

He's a very good #8 but, sometimes, when I read about him I feel like people expect him to be more than that. He never has been, he never will be.

Its why I have questioned people saying we should move to a 4-3-3 to accommodate Pogba. Why do that when Bruno is giving you a goal contribution every other game? You're going to change the shape of your team and risk losing goals, in the hope that Pogba being more advanced will not only fill that gap but surpass the output you're getting at the moment? To me that doesn't make sense. Especially as I don't think we lost the league because of our attack. Its losing at home to Sheffield United and dropping points at home to Everton having led 2-0 that hurt us.

Pogba is world class. If by world class you mean in his position, at number 8, he is one of the best in the world. However, what people seem to want from Pogba is to be much more than that. I don't think that's logical (or fair). The endless quest to 'unlock' Pogba, in the hope he can become something more than he actually is, is a pipe dream. It stops people from actually appreciating what he actually is because they're so caught up in what they'd like him to be.

I think I agree with this, good post.

Would be interesting to consider what Pogba might’ve played like next to Carrick or even both Carrick/Scholes (with as you rightly say, Rio behind them) - sounds pretty brilliant!

Honestly, this comes back to the points @JPRouve and @Brwned have made already, I don't think he'd be very different. @JPRouve has already illustrated, several times, that there is not some different Pogba that's 'unlocked' when he plays for France. Its the same Pogba. Even with Kante, even with Sissoko, even with Varane, even with Deschamps. Its the same guy. With a defender like Rio behind him, and a partner like Carrick, whatever defensive responsibility people think he should have would be lessened. Therefore he might be forced into fewer situations where his relative lack of defensive ability is shown up. But that's about it.

Pogba needs to be judged for what he is not for the idea of what he should be. Judge him against Koke, judge him against De Jong, judge him against Tielemans or Veratti or Modric or Wijlnaldum or whoever. Just don't judge him as if, by magic, if he was playing with Kante every game he would suddenly turn into something very different than what he is.