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spiriticon

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If Pogba can only be judged as an archetypal #8 and there is absolutely no way he can adapt his game, I just think it will be very difficult for him at United. I just don't think we use #8s very well and by the time we make the changes to the squad required to get the best out of him, he will be past his prime.

It is frustrating because I've seen him do the things at #6 that he is constantly being criticised for. I know it is within him to adapt his game.
 

He'sRaldo

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If Pogba can only be judged as an archetypal #8 and there is absolutely no way he can adapt his game, I just think it will be very difficult for him at United. I just don't think we use #8s very well and by the time we make the changes to the squad required to get the best out of him, he will be past his prime.

It is frustrating because I've seen him do the things at #6 that he is constantly being criticised for. I know it is within him to adapt his game.
He can, and in fact he did for much of this season. When played in the double pivot he upped his defensive work rate, and focused more on supporting Bruno.

The question is, is that what we want to see? When he played safe and blunted, focusing on covering and tackling, people were pretty unsatisfied regardless (unless he scored the game winning goal or something).

We all know deep down it's a huge waste to play him in that role, hence we want him to be able to do both so that we don't have to compromise either. But that sort of midfielder who is as safe as a #6 while having Pogba's creativity, is pretty much nonexistent.
 

Hulksmash

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He will leave for free next year.

He will get to choose the club by himself and probably get a 30Million signing on Fee + High wages.

It's financially stupid not to run the contract down
 

M16Red

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He will leave for free next year.

He will get to choose the club by himself and probably get a 30Million signing on Fee + High wages.

It's financially stupid not to run the contract down
If this was the case would you:

1. Let him rot in the PL2?

2. Play him anyway?

3. Sell him for?
 

Martial

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Pogba had a great game and all, but yeah let's be honest, put him in a 2 even next to Kante, and he's a liability defensively even when he has a great game offensively. He needs to be in a 3 with 2 more defense minded midfielders. That's it. He doesn't know how to defend, he's just not that type of player so people need to stop putting him in those situations where his defensive lapses cost the team.
I hope we put the same effort into keeping him as he did defensively for that 3rd goal they conceded the other night.

Absolute liability in a midfield two.
 

MattofManchester

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It's better to let him go.

We need to keep working on balance, so sign a CM that can operate both defensively and offensively instead.

We'd be a better team doing that than trying to shoehorn Bruno and Pogba into the same team at the expense of balance.
 

Vaibhav Raj

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Raheem sterling literally put Muller through on goal. But Muller couldn't score, England went on to win and all you hear about Sterling is praise. Pogba puts in a world class performance but gets tackled on half way line, surrounded by four opposition players, defender falls flat on his behind and allows an easy shot on goal, Switzerland equalise, go on to win the game and the world wouldn't let you forget about that Pogba mistake now. Football is cruel.
 

Adam-Utd

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All very quiet from the Pogba camp……at the moment
I think it's fair to say he's going to leave on a free so he can forfil his dream of playing for Real Madrid.

I have no issue for that, he's come back and given us his prime years, he owes us nothing and we owe him nothing.

Obviously i'd be delighted if he stays, but if he wants to play for them then what can we do? we're in a better position now to cope with his loss than ever IMO.
 

romufc

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Raheem sterling literally put Muller through on goal. But Muller couldn't score, England went on to win and all you hear about Sterling is praise. Pogba puts in a world class performance but gets tackled on half way line, surrounded by four opposition players, defender falls flat on his behind and allows an easy shot on goal, Switzerland equalise, go on to win the game and the world wouldn't let you forget about that Pogba mistake now. Football is cruel.
Yes, that is the thing Muller didn't score, if he did and England lost, the headlines would be alot different.

It would be the same the other way around as well, if Pogba lost it and Switzerland didn't score, there would be Pogba praise and no criticism.

Also, what you also need to realise is that as a United fan, we have seen that way too often from Pogba in a United shirt, losing the ball trying to do too much in the centre circle and get caught out on the transition.

Sterling's was an error, a mistake that anyone can make but Pogba's one was not a mistake, he does it almost every game for United.
 

Lee565

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Pogba reminds so much of di maria in many ways in how both need to be incorporated into a midfield to get the best out of them.

We really should be doing everything to not only keep pogba but create a system/formation/balance that gets the best out of him.
I would much rather see fred and mctominay sold to help fund an ideal midfield partner(s) to get the best out of pogba, the two former players mentioned are easy to come by run of the mill midfielders that can easily be replaced.
 

M16Red

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Pogba reminds so much of di maria in many ways in how both need to be incorporated into a midfield to get the best out of them.

We really should be doing everything to not only keep pogba but create a system/formation/balance that gets the best out of him.
I would much rather see fred and mctominay sold to help fund an ideal midfield partner(s) to get the best out of pogba, the two former players mentioned are easy to come by run of the mill midfielders that can easily be replaced.
Groundhog day.

He doesn't get the time in the EPL to dance around on the pitch. He is closed down very quickly because players and teams know if you press him you can nick the ball.

He was dispossessed 50 times last season in the EPL, Bruno was 37 for context.

I'm a Pogba fan, but how long do try to shoehorn into this team?
 

AneRu

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Pogba reminds so much of di maria in many ways in how both need to be incorporated into a midfield to get the best out of them.

We really should be doing everything to not only keep pogba but create a system/formation/balance that gets the best out of him.
I would much rather see fred and mctominay sold to help fund an ideal midfield partner(s) to get the best out of pogba, the two former players mentioned are easy to come by run of the mill midfielders that can easily be replaced.
The big question is this: does this perfect midfielder exist? Because in my view not only are asking for DM who can hold the Midfield but also babysit Pogba and Bruno who are liable to losing the ball cheaply. All this whilst playing in what is effectively a midfield two? Aren't we asking for superman?

My suggestion would be to move on from Pogba and buy a DLP who we can field alongside a defensive 8 to lay a foundation for the front four. I think in Bruno, Rashford and Sancho we will have enough guile and firepower to score enough goals.
 

justsomebloke

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He can, and in fact he did for much of this season. When played in the double pivot he upped his defensive work rate, and focused more on supporting Bruno.

The question is, is that what we want to see? When he played safe and blunted, focusing on covering and tackling, people were pretty unsatisfied regardless (unless he scored the game winning goal or something).

We all know deep down it's a huge waste to play him in that role, hence we want him to be able to do both so that we don't have to compromise either. But that sort of midfielder who is as safe as a #6 while having Pogba's creativity, is pretty much nonexistent.
Literally, maybe yes, but that's because you may not find any central midfielder who could exactly match Pogbas mix of creative talents.

But apart from that, players who bring a lot of skill and creativity to a #6 role is no longer a rarity (which also means the distinction between #6 and #8 is blurring). Increasingly, a combination of defensive safety and creative impact is the norm rather than the exception for midfielders who play in a central pairing without having a particularly offensive role, certainly among top clubs. Jorginho, Fabinho, Kovacic, Locatelli, Bentancur, Gündogan, Fernandinho.
 

justsomebloke

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Pogba reminds so much of di maria in many ways in how both need to be incorporated into a midfield to get the best out of them.

We really should be doing everything to not only keep pogba but create a system/formation/balance that gets the best out of him.
I would much rather see fred and mctominay sold to help fund an ideal midfield partner(s) to get the best out of pogba, the two former players mentioned are easy to come by run of the mill midfielders that can easily be replaced.
Sorry, but this is emblematic of how ridiculously Fred is underestimated around here.

People think he's a "run of the mill" midfielder. His stats, the fact he is the most frequently chosen central midfielder for United and the fact he's currently playing for Brazil in the CA tells a different story.
 

Borys

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Raheem sterling literally put Muller through on goal. But Muller couldn't score, England went on to win and all you hear about Sterling is praise. Pogba puts in a world class performance but gets tackled on half way line, surrounded by four opposition players, defender falls flat on his behind and allows an easy shot on goal, Switzerland equalise, go on to win the game and the world wouldn't let you forget about that Pogba mistake now. Football is cruel.
Is that so? Not from I've seen in the match day thread for England - Germany. Pogba on the other hand was praised by everyone in the matchthread, even considering Switzerland was running freely through France midfield in the first half (many pundits pointed that out).

Pogba made a small mistake, he does a lot of them and IMO this isn't his biggest flaw off the ball. Regarding the world not letting you forget about Pogba mistake, the only obsession I see is people trying to defend him with silly arguments like "if X scored a goal, Pogba mistake wouldn't be a problem, and it's Kante job to defend anyway so it's not Paul fault". Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but for sure losing the ball in 90+ minute when you're one goal ahead seems like a mistake, independent if he put a world class level performance or not.

Literally, maybe yes, but that's because you may not find any central midfielder who could exactly match Pogbas mix of creative talents.

But apart from that, players who bring a lot of skill and creativity to a #6 role is no longer a rarity (which also means the distinction between #6 and #8 is blurring). Increasingly, a combination of defensive safety and creative impact is the norm rather than the exception for midfielders who play in a central pairing without having a particularly offensive role, certainly among top clubs. Jorginho, Fabinho, Kovacic, Locatelli, Bentancur, Gündogan, Fernandinho.
Exactly, which is why I don't see it a as a problem. Sell Pogba (specialist who doesn't fit) and get a all-rounded midfielder of high class, but fitting our setup.
Replacing Pogba with like-for-like player would be the stuppidest thing to do.
 
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Escobar

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Raheem sterling literally put Muller through on goal. But Muller couldn't score, England went on to win and all you hear about Sterling is praise. Pogba puts in a world class performance but gets tackled on half way line, surrounded by four opposition players, defender falls flat on his behind and allows an easy shot on goal, Switzerland equalise, go on to win the game and the world wouldn't let you forget about that Pogba mistake now. Football is cruel.
That is true. And I find it hilarious that out of all players it is Rabiot who gives him shit. Rabiot has been terrible in every single game. Pogba's dancing after scoring showed a bit what the problem is - he loses focus, he becomes casual and nonchalant. And that kind of attitude is seen in his game, too often also at United.

Pogba has been France's best player, simple as that. He's been world class, but it is difficult to integrate him into a working team. If he does not sign a new contract, we better sell him.
 

GMoore23

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He will leave for free next year.

He will get to choose the club by himself and probably get a 30Million signing on Fee + High wages.

It's financially stupid not to run the contract down
Then he should get the Schweinsteiger treatment. Banished to the reserves for the whole season. He'll soon see sense then.
 

justsomebloke

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Then he should get the Schweinsteiger treatment. Banished to the reserves for the whole season. He'll soon see sense then.
That'd just be stupid. It'd ensure that we not only lose him for nothing, but also get nothing out of him for his last season. And what sort of sense do you imagine he'd see? Do you think he'd then relent, and sign an extension? And do you think it'd have a positive impact on the rest of the team to have that kind of circus going on the whole season, with Raiola bitching and management making cutting replies and Pogba tweeting?

Thank God we have a manager with the good sense to try and defuse situations like that and keep the interference to a minimum, rather than just cave in to a fan base with no impulse control.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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I would be surprised if he's still keen on Real with Zidane gone and their squad looking in much worse shape than ours.

I mean, they need a serious rebuild and they hired a past-it manager.
 

GMoore23

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That'd just be stupid. It'd ensure that we not only lose him for nothing, but also get nothing out of him for his last season. And what sort of sense do you imagine he'd see? Do you think he'd then relent, and sign an extension? And do you think it'd have a positive impact on the rest of the team to have that kind of circus going on the whole season, with Raiola bitching and management making cutting replies and Pogba tweeting?

Thank God we have a manager with the good sense to try and defuse situations like that and keep the interference to a minimum, rather than just cave in to a fan base with no impulse control.
It would give the ultimatum, resign with us or go elsewhere, whichever one I don't care but make your fecking mind up.
If we let Pogba get away with this it will set an example for the rest of the squad, the next thing, they'll all be at it.
If he refuses to sign a new deal or move on this window, If I was Ole, I'd banish him to train alone for the whole season and fine him if he misses a session.
 

justsomebloke

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It would give the ultimatum, resign with us or go elsewhere, whichever one I don't care but make your fecking mind up.
If we let Pogba get away with this it will set an example for the rest of the squad, the next thing, they'll all be at it.
If he refuses to sign a new deal or move on this window, If I was Ole, I'd banish him to train alone for the whole season and fine him if he misses a session.
Well, good thing you're not Ole then. All of that may feel satisfying, but it won't actually make the situation any better. Because the world doesn't actually work in the way that if you just put your foot down hard enough, everyone snaps into line. It also doesn't work in the way that everything falls apart if you do anything other than respond with maximum counterforce whenever someone is doing something they shouldn't.
 

Hulksmash

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Then he should get the Schweinsteiger treatment. Banished to the reserves for the whole season. He'll soon see sense then.
No man thats more stupid thing to do.

Pogba is a liability defensive, he needs a weak slow league like the Italian where he can shine. I mean Ole is trying him as a winger
 

kouroux

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That'd just be stupid. It'd ensure that we not only lose him for nothing, but also get nothing out of him for his last season. And what sort of sense do you imagine he'd see? Do you think he'd then relent, and sign an extension? And do you think it'd have a positive impact on the rest of the team to have that kind of circus going on the whole season, with Raiola bitching and management making cutting replies and Pogba tweeting?

Thank God we have a manager with the good sense to try and defuse situations like that and keep the interference to a minimum, rather than just cave in to a fan base with no impulse control.
Thank God indeed. That suggestion was so fecking stupid :houllier:
 

Ali Dia

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Groundhog day.

He doesn't get the time in the EPL to dance around on the pitch. He is closed down very quickly because players and teams know if you press him you can nick the ball.

He was dispossessed 50 times last season in the EPL, Bruno was 37 for context.

I'm a Pogba fan, but how long do try to shoehorn into this team?
He also played about 1900 minutes vs Bruno’s 3100. It’s not at all ideal for a team that wants to keep midfield tight so our attackers can stay forward. Pogba is a winger or a 10 in this team based on his skill set and how often he loses the ball and doesn’t track back. You can’t be losing the ball that much in central midfield, never mind while not being consistently proactive in getting it back
 

Vaibhav Raj

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Yes, that is the thing Muller didn't score, if he did and England lost, the headlines would be alot different.

It would be the same the other way around as well, if Pogba lost it and Switzerland didn't score, there would be Pogba praise and no criticism.

Also, what you also need to realise is that as a United fan, we have seen that way too often from Pogba in a United shirt, losing the ball trying to do too much in the centre circle and get caught out on the transition.

Sterling's was an error, a mistake that anyone can make but Pogba's one was not a mistake, he does it almost every game for United.
I am not saying that the criticism is not valid. All I am saying is Pogba sure did more to win the game for France than he did to lose the game. At the end of the day, France lost not only because Pogba made a mistake but also because defender made a mistake after Pogba lost the ball, Mbappe missed chances and his penalty. There are a lot of factors at play and boiling down the defeat to just the point in time where Pogba lost the ball feels a bit too harsh in hindsight.

For United, I have seen Fred and Mctominay make worse mistakes which led to goals. Pogba's errors in United shirt are usually him giving away a silly penalty.

Look I have my fair share of criticism for Pogba but most of it is down to his inconsistency and inability to apply himself as much as he can. I just feel the criticism he received in this particular one incident is a bit cruel if you look at that match in isolation. Cruel in the sense that had he not done that, he would probably has been in contention for man of the match
 
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Vaibhav Raj

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Pogba made a small mistake, he does a lot of them and IMO this isn't his biggest flaw off the ball. Regarding the world not letting you forget about Pogba mistake, the only obsession I see is people trying to defend him with silly arguments like "if X scored a goal, Pogba mistake wouldn't be a problem, and it's Kante job to defend anyway so it's not Paul fault". Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but for sure losing the ball in 90+ minute when you're one goal ahead seems like a mistake, independent if he put a world class level performance or not.
It is not a silly argument because if you watch any game of football, players make mistakes, the best of them. Some give away silly free-kicks after team has just scored in a crucial match (Maguire vs Germany, Free kick didn't go in and England won so no one talks), I sighted Raheem Sterling example earlier, some miss penalties (Van Persie vs Southampton for Manchester united, Van Persie later scored so no one bothered) and each game is sprayed with mistakes like losing possession, putting in a stupid tackle etc. No player can play a spotless game always. The reason you don't hear every mistake analysed all the time is mostly because eventually the team maybe went on to win or maybe the match wasn't a knockout game in Euro, or maybe the player himself didn't have a big profile. Are you really telling me that if Mbappe scores from the Pogba pass or if France won on penalties, folks will be sitting here talking about that equalising goal and Pogba as much as they are doing now? Surely not.

It is a mistake yes. It should be criticized, sure. But all I am saying is Pogba, with his performance in isolation, did more to win the game than to lose it. So the criticism that he's been subjected to seems a tad cruel. By cruel I don't want to say unjustified or justified. Just cruel.
 
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Vaibhav Raj

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Pogba has been France's best player, simple as that. He's been world class, but it is difficult to integrate him into a working team. If he does not sign a new contract, we better sell him.
I wouldn't want him sold but then again I don't see him working well without a midfield of three. With Bruno being our best player, it is difficult to see the team going for a midfield three. Bruno surely doesn't fit that role of a third midfielder. Wish there was a way to accomodate both these amazing players and get the best out of them.
 

Freak

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What I really hate about him, besides his defensive efforts, is how he loves fannying around with the ball in his own half. I mean people know you are physically strong so you do not have to try and invite players onto you so you can show how you hold them off. Just fecking release it fast.
 

Borys

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It is not a silly argument because if you watch any game of football, players make mistakes, the best of them. Some give away silly free-kicks after team has just scored in a crucial match (Maguire vs Germany, Free kick didn't go in and England won so no one talks), I sighted Raheem Sterling example earlier, some miss penalties (Van Persie vs Southampton for Manchester united, Van Persie later scored so no one bothered) and each game is sprayed with mistakes like losing possession, putting in a stupid tackle etc. No player can play a spotless game always. The reason you don't hear every mistake analysed all the time is mostly because eventually the team maybe went on to win or maybe the match wasn't a knockout game in Euro, or maybe the player himself didn't have a big profile. Are you really telling me that if Mbappe scores from the Pogba pass or if France won on penalties, folks will be sitting here talking about that equalising goal and Pogba as much as they are doing now? Surely not.

It is a mistake yes. It should be criticized, sure. But all I am saying is Pogba, with his performance in isolation, did more to win the game than to lose it. So the criticism that he's been subjected to seems a tad cruel. By cruel I don't want to say unjustified or justified. Just cruel.
I'm telling you this is irrelevant, because Mbappe DIDN'T score, and France was only one goal ahead. The criticism is justified because you don't lose the ball in extra time in a game like this. All what happened before doesn't matter if you can't deliver in the end.

Anyway, this thread is like 5 people criticizing Pogba and 50 defending him with ridiculous claims. Like you said, it was a mistake. And I'm looking at it from neutral stand. If he did that for United, I'd be pissed off.

Let's agree to disagree as I don't share your level of empathy.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Sorry, but this is emblematic of how ridiculously Fred is underestimated around here.

People think he's a "run of the mill" midfielder. His stats, the fact he is the most frequently chosen central midfielder for United and the fact he's currently playing for Brazil in the CA tells a different story.
His issue is he gets lumped in with McTominay who really is a fairly average player still. If we signed a better passer of the ball to play with Fred he would be appreciated more.
 

laughtersassassin

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His issue is he gets lumped in with McTominay who really is a fairly average player still. If we signed a better passer of the ball to play with Fred he would be appreciated more.
How many goals did Fred cost us in the latter half of last season?

A fecking million.

He constantly gives the ball away on the edge of our box.

Way more so than Pogba. Pogba gets dispossessed further up for the most part.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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How many goals did Fred cost us in the latter half of last season?

A fecking million.

He constantly gives the ball away on the edge of our box.

Way more so than Pogba. Pogba gets dispossessed further up for the most part.
Not sure about that personally. Even if you believe it. Fred (and many of our players) played far too much football last season and much more than Pogba, you’d expect some sloppiness to creep in after that schedule. Also worth pointing out that while he has McTominay next to him hiding from the pass he has to take on an awful lot of responsibility. With a better passer beside him he could realise to ball quicker.
 

laughtersassassin

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Sterling's mistake Against Germany was a million times worse than Pogbas as well.

Pogba was literally Frances best player and the last person you could blame for them losing the games.

Positive
1. Put Mbappe through 4-5 times
2. Won the ball back for their second goal
3. Scored a wonder goal
4. Was their only player consistently creating

Negative.
4. Gave the ball away in the opposition half as loads of people do. Plenty of other players also at fault for this goal. Whole team was too far up for no reason. Kimpembes defending was abysmal etc.

To blame Pogba for that game is absurd.

He was the only one creating chances for them.

Brilliant performance from him. Id take that over Fred's best ever game for us for instance.
 
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Idxomer

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I'm telling you this is irrelevant, because Mbappe DIDN'T score, and France was only one goal ahead. The criticism is justified because you don't lose the ball in extra time in a game like this. All what happened before doesn't matter if you can't deliver in the end.

Anyway, this thread is like 5 people criticizing Pogba and 50 defending him with ridiculous claims. Like you said, it was a mistake. And I'm looking at it from neutral stand. If he did that for United, I'd be pissed off.

Let's agree to disagree as I don't share your level of empathy.
:lol:
 

laughtersassassin

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Not sure about that personally. Even if you believe it. Fred (and many of our players) played far too much football last season and much more than Pogba, you’d expect some sloppiness to creep in after that schedule. Also worth pointing out that while he has McTominay next to him hiding from the pass he has to take on an awful lot of responsibility. With a better passer beside him he could realise to ball quicker.
I mean I could go through the goals. There was a lot in the second half of the season. He was criminal

1. Against Liverpool. Crap in general and started the gift that was their third goal.
2. Villa himself and McTominay linking up to gift Traore a goal. Lindelof crap too but it starts from losing the ball for no reason. Fred started it by selling McTominay short and then they all fecked up.
3. One of Roma's goal in the second leg. Lost the ball on the edge of our box trying to do Skill. Despite the fact he is very poor at it.
4. Leicester in the FA Cup final. Did it 3-4 times until they finally scored. Was literally playing against us.

Fred for me would be a squad player at most. He has a bit of talent but is probably the most erratic Midfielder I've ever seen.

Any time you start to think he is decent he goes back to having a first touch that is a tackle for the next 3 games.

We'd be mad if we aren't planning on replacing him in the next year or so. Wouldn't see him making any top team.
 
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TrustInJanuzaj

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I mean I could go through the goals. There was a lot in the second half of the season. He was criminal

1. Against Liverpool. Crap in general and started the gift that was their third goal.
2. Villa himself and McTominay linking up to gift Traore a goal. Lindelof crap too but it starts from losing the ball for no reason. Fred started it by selling McTominay short and then they all fecked up.
3. One of Roma's goal in the second leg. Lost the ball on the edge of our box trying to do Skill. Despite the fact he is very poor at it.
4. Leicester in the FA Cup final. Did it 3-4 times until they finally scored. Was literally playing against us.

Fred for me would be a squad player at most. He has a bit of talent but is probably the most erratic Midfielder I've ever seen.

Any time you start to think he is decent he goes back to having a first touch that is a tackle for the next 3 games.

We'd be mad if we aren't planning on replacing him in the next year or so. Wouldn't see him making any top team.
He’s slightly erratic but you are exaggerating. All midfielders lose the ball by the way. If he was that poor he wouldn’t be starting for this Brazil team. I don’t doubt he could be part of the very strong first 11 in the right system because his energy is relentless and he’s decent on the ball. He’s better on the ball than someone like Kante for example who really had a poor season for most of the campaign.
 

laughtersassassin

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He’s slightly erratic but you are exaggerating. All midfielders lose the ball by the way. If he was that poor he wouldn’t be starting for this Brazil team. I don’t doubt he could be part of the very strong first 11 in the right system because his energy is relentless and he’s decent on the ball. He’s better on the ball than someone like Kante for example who really had a poor season for most of the campaign.
Him losing the ball isn't the only reason I call him erratic. I think he is just an erratic player.

And to be fair to him it's suits his style "SOMETIMES" but does cost him too.

I wouldn't stay starting for Brazil automatically makes you good either.

He is a 6 or 7/10 player

Problem is he isn't a consistent one. He has lows that are absolutely awful. If Fred was consistent he would be quite useful but that's where his erratic nature drags him done a lot.

While to compare to Pogba he is most of the time a 7-9/10 player. He has lows too but for the most part are not as bad for me and his highs are so much higher.
 
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