You can't beat Barcelona without speed and Stamina, you won't beat them on a technical or tactical ground.
Pep Guardiola
- Thread starter Theafonis
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Worse teams have advanced beyond that stage and won. And "very, very close" is overstating it, we were rarely troubled at the back.
Guardiola did a fantastic job with Barcelona. The jury is still out with Bayern, and that is because he hasn't made a final with the available team. Shock horror.
There was nothing in that second semi, I remember Henry missing a relatively easy header with a few minutes remaining.
What has been happening with Guardiola for a couple of years now in the CL or to Mourinho for 5 years now is more or less what happened to SAF from time to time: ppl question your tactics, call you naive, stubborn or even overrated and expect CL trophies regularly.
Even some of our own fans have one of their favourite line "2 CLs in 26 years" and this couldn't be more wrong! Which 26 years exactly? Didn't we only win our first league title under SAF in 93? And weren't English clubs banned from Europe anyway almost prior to that? And didn't SAF immediately win his first European trophy for United (Cup winners' Cup) in the first year he actually competed in it?
So it's actually 2 CLs (or 4 finals, some more semis and reaching the CL quarters 7 times in a row in a period where the rest of PL teams were nowhere to be seen in Europe)in 18 years (1993/94 - 2012/13 minus one season when we weren't in it as Blackburn won the league in 1994/95).
So it's indeed 2 CLs in 18 years, not 26.
Could he have won more? Yes, but it's still a very good record considering in that period he also rebuilt several teams and every transition takes a couple of years.
What I am trying to say is that the longer you stay as a manager, the more the room for failure will increase. If Guardiola had retired in 2011 or Mourinho in 2010 ppl would have probably never questioned anything they had done. Because in a shorter period everything can be perfect for you, you are also perfect, the team has clicked and the luck was there in some defining moments.
But over a longer time period not everything will always be perfect, other great teams will emerge, you will have to re-build and re-motivate your team and maybe also re-invent yourself a bit and adapt because teams have figured out how to play against you, etc.
I mean also look at Di Matteo, 2 CL seasons, 1 trophy. Doesn't mean he is a genius, which was also clear when they finished 6th in the league the same season and were the first reigning champions to get kicked out in the group stages. But in that one CL season everything just worked for them in that competition.
There will be a lot of more occasions when top manager like Pep, Mourinho and also Klopp and Simeone will get things wrong. This is bound to happen in a long management career. But that doesn't mean that some of them need to be called tactically naive or overrated everytime something like this happens.
Even some of our own fans have one of their favourite line "2 CLs in 26 years" and this couldn't be more wrong! Which 26 years exactly? Didn't we only win our first league title under SAF in 93? And weren't English clubs banned from Europe anyway almost prior to that? And didn't SAF immediately win his first European trophy for United (Cup winners' Cup) in the first year he actually competed in it?
So it's actually 2 CLs (or 4 finals, some more semis and reaching the CL quarters 7 times in a row in a period where the rest of PL teams were nowhere to be seen in Europe)in 18 years (1993/94 - 2012/13 minus one season when we weren't in it as Blackburn won the league in 1994/95).
So it's indeed 2 CLs in 18 years, not 26.
Could he have won more? Yes, but it's still a very good record considering in that period he also rebuilt several teams and every transition takes a couple of years.
What I am trying to say is that the longer you stay as a manager, the more the room for failure will increase. If Guardiola had retired in 2011 or Mourinho in 2010 ppl would have probably never questioned anything they had done. Because in a shorter period everything can be perfect for you, you are also perfect, the team has clicked and the luck was there in some defining moments.
But over a longer time period not everything will always be perfect, other great teams will emerge, you will have to re-build and re-motivate your team and maybe also re-invent yourself a bit and adapt because teams have figured out how to play against you, etc.
I mean also look at Di Matteo, 2 CL seasons, 1 trophy. Doesn't mean he is a genius, which was also clear when they finished 6th in the league the same season and were the first reigning champions to get kicked out in the group stages. But in that one CL season everything just worked for them in that competition.
There will be a lot of more occasions when top manager like Pep, Mourinho and also Klopp and Simeone will get things wrong. This is bound to happen in a long management career. But that doesn't mean that some of them need to be called tactically naive or overrated everytime something like this happens.
Those bayern players might not be rapid, but they aren't slow at all. Gotze, muller and lewadowski are more than capable of initiating a break especially with their intelligence of movement. You can beat the tactically, just not technically which is what Pep tried and it backfired completely.
Gotze is slow, but the problem is more regarding Barcelona, against any other it would have been fine, but against Barcelona you need speed, it's the only way to avoid their pressing and their covering of the space, Barcelona don't give space.
Spot on.
100% agree with you.
Absolutely spot on.
Nailed it.
How dare you speak some sense in here.
Feel a bit sorry for him, in a way I think it would have been better for football had Barca not scored that 3rd. It's all hypothetical but I think Mourinho could have took Bayern away with a draw or narrow loss last night, sending us all to sleep in the process. But Christ, am I grateful for being able to watch 22 of the finest players in Europe, go toe to toe in an actual game of football. You just know Mourinho was sat with a face on, grimacing at how entertaining it all was.
similar game plan of high press and similar formation of 4321 christmas tree adopted by the both sides interpreted differently. the barca middle 3 is a typical 6-8-10 triangle and the bayern one is a fairly flat one of alonso a bit dropped deeper in central. fairly speaking, the bayern one makes more sense than barca. the only issue is if right players were picked. on paper, it deems to me that gotze suits more than thiago in a more advanced role and thiago shall move into the midfield right and have lahm to play back his old position as a right back. but i can't comment if the recent form of bayern players allow this to do so.
through out the 90 minutes barca managed to have more of the game and to produce more clearer chances, so a narrow margin win to barca would be a fair result. a draw is also not an unfair one if bayern could manage to contain barca in bay through out the whole 90 minutes. only if bayern is lucky enough then an upset shall happen.
however, when the game run into the last 30 minutes, if there would be a team to win out the game, bayern looked like they had the edge by that time being.
a silly mistake commited in the last 15 minutes by their left back, trying to bring out the ball by himself in their own third got intercepted and was then seriously punished. can't question bayern's enthusiasm to chase for a leveler but it's still naive to let barca to sit for counter too easily. a 1-0 result is not the end of the world but let it to become a 3-0 one now bayern will have a mountain to climb. sometimes you are better off to treat such condition as a nil-nil even if this means this will lead to a 1-0 result to the end
through out the 90 minutes barca managed to have more of the game and to produce more clearer chances, so a narrow margin win to barca would be a fair result. a draw is also not an unfair one if bayern could manage to contain barca in bay through out the whole 90 minutes. only if bayern is lucky enough then an upset shall happen.
however, when the game run into the last 30 minutes, if there would be a team to win out the game, bayern looked like they had the edge by that time being.
a silly mistake commited in the last 15 minutes by their left back, trying to bring out the ball by himself in their own third got intercepted and was then seriously punished. can't question bayern's enthusiasm to chase for a leveler but it's still naive to let barca to sit for counter too easily. a 1-0 result is not the end of the world but let it to become a 3-0 one now bayern will have a mountain to climb. sometimes you are better off to treat such condition as a nil-nil even if this means this will lead to a 1-0 result to the end
that bitter troll likely wouldn't have enjoed it
This is not about getting things wrong, this is about his own typical style of play. It's obvious he succeeded in implementing it at Bayern, but does it work? With a pattern of not even nearly creating enough chances against the best teams, not only this year but also last year, it doesn't.
Because the aim of his style of play is beating teams like Barca and Real and Dortmund and Wolfsburg, by creating lots of chances. Scoring 6 or 7 against the smaller Bundesliga clubs is fun, but not important. The measure of strength is with the strongest opposition, not in the humiliation of teams that should be beaten anyway.
This point has been discussed here to death. But in the end there will always be a few top managers and teams fighting for the CL and only one will win it and about the rest everyone can discuss what they got wrong. But sometimes it's just better to accept that there is a better team around which was the case with Barca yesterday.
The criticism yesterday is particularly strange. Bayern were not outplayed which if anything vindicates his tactics. They came up short in terms of creating chances but that is a very harsh criticism considering he did not have Robben and Ribery. That is like criticizing Barcelona for not creating enough without Suarez and Naymer (I am not even using Messi as an example as he is just ridiculous). Tactics are important and are instrumental in giving teams an edge but when you have two teams who are at more or less the same level which was evident yesterday in terms of tactics and cohesion (the job of the coach), the difference comes through individuals. The fact that Bayern were missing their best and Barcelona had the equivalent of a cheating option has nothing to do with Guardiola.
He's won two champions league trophies. So clearly his own "typical" style of play does indeed work. Does it work ever year? Even when he has big players injured? Maybe not. But that doesn't mean his "way" is wrong. In that case sir Alex's "way" was right only twice in two decades in Europe, and mourinho's "way" hasn't been right for 5 years in Europe.
Yes and he won't be doing it throughout his career. No manager will. Winning the champions league and being the BEST in Europe is not a frequent thing.
Ancelotti lost 2-1 to Barcelona recently in a huge la liga game. Exposed?
Mourinho went out laughably against 10 man psg. Exposed?
Mourinho went out laughably against 10 man psg. Exposed?
Exactly! Even if we follow this nonsense, Guardiola has as good as a record as anyone out there now with these so called methods. He fails at worst as much as the others with the difference that when he succeeds, it is extraordinary success, success that will be spoken about decades from now. So he suffers similar lows as your Mourinhos but his highs belong to a very very exclusive category.
I have said it a few times already ( albeit in diff words), To do well with an amazing squad you need a very good coach. To do well with almost amazing squad, you need a brilliant coach. He is just very good. He is just that, for me.
Was ancelotti destroyed last year as well? Was mourinho? Have both of them only had success at one club with possibly the goat of all time and the finest two mid of this generation playing for him?
Yes Mourinho's defeat last year at home to Atlético could be argued to be even more embarrassing. He adopted more or less the same cautious tactics against PSG this year and got knocked out. If a team performs like that Barcelona side you are talking about, it is never due to one factor. This is the case for any unique achievement in Sports! It is a combination of everything complementing each other and coming together perfectly. You take one piece of the puzzle and you lose the whole. In that case, the puzzle was a long process of input from visionaries with Michels, Cruyf and Van Gaal, an academy of a long established tradition, the emergence of probably the best player of all time and the development of great players coinciding with each other and finally yes, the brain of a master tactician in Guardiola. The point is the fact that he was immensely helped by many other factors, does not that he was brilliant in his own right. It's just that brilliance is never and will never be enough to produce a team of those same heights.
Did he face Messi having a storming game?
Bayern weren't destroyed either. Messi killed them in 5 minutes. There's little a manager can do in that situation. He also was missing his most important attackers.
Also, have you seen the league record of the great Ancelotti? It's pretty rubbish for a coach of this standard. What about that?
Ah, mourinho. You want to talk about his exit from this years champions league? He went out playing defensive nonsensical football and getting bossed by a 10 man psg. It was appalling. I'd rather get beat 3-0 by some inspired moments by one of the sports greatest then playing cowardly against 10 men, and still going out anyway.
He's had success at two clubs now, and like I said, take a look at ancelotti's wonderful league record.
Sir Alex was also mostly at one club btw, and had the class of 99 to work with and some of the best talent has ever produced. He also worked with ronaldo and Rooney later. Yeah, but mourinho's better because he got fired twice.
And before anyone doesn't use his brain properly, I'm not comparing pep to saf.
But it's funny how critical people are of guardiola. I reckon its the two cl final wins he got over us.
But it's funny how critical people are of guardiola. I reckon its the two cl final wins he got over us.
I hope Bayern's injury situation improves. Should be a good return leg as well.
Always wanted to see what Pep would do with his brand of football against Barcelona.
Always wanted to see what Pep would do with his brand of football against Barcelona.
Also worth mentioning that Simeone has successfully won games/ties several times against both RM and Barca in the recent past by parking the bus, but even he hasn't succeeded yet with that tactic against Barca's current front three. He lost out in both competitions so far against them: league and Copa del Rey.
Ppl also seem to think that parking the bus is some kind of super successful tactic, whereas lower / midtable teams in different leagues do it regularly against top teams. Teams in the PL have been doing this for years and years against United as well. Yes it looks great when it occasionally works. But much more often than not it will work for some minutes, sometimes even for 60-70 minutes, however in the end some player from the better team with his brilliance (like Messi did yesterday) or some attacking play still will still manage to break down the defence in the end.
Moyes also succeeded against Bayern with that tactic for almost around an hour, but in the end they still got their away goal.
Ppl also seem to think that parking the bus is some kind of super successful tactic, whereas lower / midtable teams in different leagues do it regularly against top teams. Teams in the PL have been doing this for years and years against United as well. Yes it looks great when it occasionally works. But much more often than not it will work for some minutes, sometimes even for 60-70 minutes, however in the end some player from the better team with his brilliance (like Messi did yesterday) or some attacking play still will still manage to break down the defence in the end.
Moyes also succeeded against Bayern with that tactic for almost around an hour, but in the end they still got their away goal.
Isn't it the job of a manager to limit the attacking capabilities of the opposite team? Messi having a great game counts against pep, it doesn't excuse him since that's why they employed him to counter the likes of Messi and barca. And am not sure how you can on one hand claim that he was undone by Messi having a good game and then give him credit for his management of barca when Messi was even better. The same mourinho who has won the cl with Porto and inter Milan? And been dominant at every club he has managed? Yeah, I can see why people are not giving him flak for his exits. The same reasoning applies to ancelotti as well, the man is a proven winner with different clubs and he gets leeway. Winning the bundesliga with bayern is no great achievement. The fact remains that guardiola has managed two of the greatest sides of the 20th century. He ran away from the first one to avoid the klopp situation and is well on his way to being a disappointment in his second spell. And no winning the bundesliga, with a treble winning side and no competition, doesn't count.
Ancelotti is average when it comes to league football. Doesn't deserve your leeway more than Guardiola.
Mourinho has been so dominant that out of the 4 clubs he's managed since he became well known he was fired from two of them.
That's just clutching at straws now, he was only fired from Madrid and even there he won the league, in fact it's the same as what pep is doing at bayern now but you are calling one a failure while the other is not that's hypocritical.
If pep had ancelotti record with his variety of teams over a longer time span you can get back to me, till then ancelotti is a better manager. Pep may outperform him in the league but he has also managed the favourites by far in his young career so obviously he wins the league more often than not.
So what? He built the Barca team himself. Why would you hold it against him? Every top manager has had plenty of resources to work with including Mourinho, Ancelotti, Del Bosque etc etc. Pep is no different. As for Bayern he did inherit a team that was already on the top. But no team has ever won two CL's in a row, i doubt if Heynckes would have either had he not retired, never mind a new manager trying to impose a different style.
And by Chelsea first time round after Sir Alex started winning the battle.
I'm not the one calling managers failures, you are. I'm just showing how easy it is to criticize for the sake of criticizing.
I guess you must consider Ancelotti and his mediocre league record superior to Sir Alex as well, what with our great manager refusing to take new challenges unlike Ancelotti.
Barca weren't "the favorites" when he took over either so you're getting everything wrong here. Real had won back to back league titles when he took over if I'm not mistaken.
Ancelotti was at AC Milan and had players like Pirlo, Gattuso, Seedorf, Maldini and Kaka in his squad. In 8/9 years how many league titles did he win? One.
Yup. Real Madrid had won two titles in a row. Barca had finished 10 points below Villareal and barely qualified for CL. They had to win their last league game to ensure qualification. They were also outclassed in the El Classico. Pep took same really ballsy decisions getting rid of over half of the senior players in his first season for which he received tons of ridicule and criticism from the media and fans. Their transfer activity that season resembled a mass exodus. In hindsight it seems remarkable that he got so many decisions right. Comparing his starting 11 in the CL final to Riijkard's starting 11 just 3 years ago they had only two players in common - Puyol and Valdes. That team was torn down and rebuilt fairly quickly. Ofcourse its much easier to just say he had a great team to work with and everybody's grandma could have won trophies with that team.
It's hard when you're only really judged on one, knock-out competition (as the title is almost a given). The best managers can struggle there. Bloody hell, Mourinho is considered by many as the best there is, a great tactician, someone who knows how to set his team up to win. Since Porto, he got the final ONCE.
So yeah, Guardiola's two years haven't been great. He's shown he can really transform the way team plays, he hasn't shown he can beat the big boys when it counts that way. But he has a third year and he'll probably still be in Bayern next season. What if he wins it then? No one can win it every year anyway.
So yeah, Guardiola's two years haven't been great. He's shown he can really transform the way team plays, he hasn't shown he can beat the big boys when it counts that way. But he has a third year and he'll probably still be in Bayern next season. What if he wins it then? No one can win it every year anyway.
Because if you want to excuse his loss by saying that messi just turned the game itself, then you have to discount his successes by the same factor, namely messi being in better form than he is right now.
How many teams have won the treble before? That side was easily the best in europe and should have dominated ala barca a few seasons back but for pep coming in and totally changing the playing style which cost them last year and this year again.
He left due to disagreements with Roman, the fact he was welcomed back and the core nucleus of the side that challenged all those years later is plus points in his favour. Sir Alex was a different story, remind me again when did Pep rebuild a team after his first great team has faded? Never?
Where have I called him a failure? I argued with your point that his situation is the same as mourinho or ancelotti when the latter two are far more proven.
Conversely, he took over a side that finished in the semi finals of the CL and was one scholes wonder goal away from reaching the final whose nearest competitors were so poor they couldnt get past the last-16.
Winning the league are deemed as a failure these days...
Weak argument. Ancelotti is 55, Mourinho is 52, and Pep is still 44 years old. This is only his second ever club to manage, and his second season is yet to finish. Only had success with us? Whether it appeals to you or not, he's won 5 trophies so far with Bayern..
That's not the narrative that needs to be portrayed about Ancelotti. It's supposed to be all about how much of a class act he is, how nice a guy he is, how good a diplomat he is while working with crazy club presidents rather than how he's worked with some of the greatest players ever, and some top quality teams and only won there league titles as things stand. Yes three Champions Legaue titles is very impressive. that narrative of working with great players and supposedly working with great teams is reserved for Pep and Pep only.
Would you class mourinho's time at madrid as a success? And I know pep is younger than both of those two, thats why am arguing that you cant compare him to them, not that he is a poor manager.
Winning La Liga over one of the greatest sides in history is a huge success. However, he did fail at winning the CL in his 3 year tenure and only won 3 trophies in total with the most expensive team ever. Add to the fact that he left with a mess in the dressing room and turned players against him. Many Madridista see it as a failure, and some see it as a success.