when 6-8 potential first team players are either out or not at 100% it is reasonable to talk about injuries as a reason why the team lost. That doesnt mean, that we would have won otherwise or that we cant discuss other nuances as well. Still it doesnt make sense to come to these extreme assessments like "oh pep is shit after all" or "bayern are a mediocre team". I might sound sensitive but it seems to me, that you didn´t watch bayern a whole lot this season. Alaba is one of the very first names on the team-sheet and he is not a replacement for Bernat. He or Badstuber are crucial parts to play with a back3. Götze as replacement for Ribery sounds fine, but he has been shit for month now. He is the one major disappointment this season, but thats down to his attitude (at least in my humble opinion). Alonso is out of form, but has to play all the time, because we have so few alternatives. There are a couple of other things, but overall the line up yesterday was far from ideal and not really close to our best one.Are you really still relying on Badstuber? He is injured for few years now, and this season he made comeback which was again disrupted by injuries, I am really not sure how people can still see him as big miss. Schweinsteiger is also in similar condition, I explained in the other post, I know he is excellent player but he played decent number of games over last month or two so I am really not sure he can be in much better state than this, because that's what you get from him lately. He is actually "very fit" lately for his standards. Thiago was involved in 9 Bayern games in a row. He isn't in his best condition ever, but he is in good form. Benatia played good game last night, he was probably better than Boateng.
Look, I am not saying that you aren't injury hit at the moment, but attacking wise you are not missing many players. If you had Robben you could say that that team would be picked sometimes even when your whole team is fit.
I agree on the second paragraph, I think you actually defended very well.
It still requires a tremendous amount of luck. Barca hit the post thrice and Messi missed a penalty in order for Chelsea to draw and win the tie. Cech also gave one of the best performances of his career.And parking the bus successfully has only worked out for Chelsea in 2012, however it didn't in 2005, 2007, 2014 or 2015. So Mourinho - a specialist at bus parking - wasn't even successful with that tactic against far less attacking minded teams such as Atletico or 10 men PSG - but Guardiola whose team isn't even coached to park the bus should still do it against much much better attack than the teams' Mourinho failed against?
With his obsession with posession he takes the sting out of players. Messi and Iniesta are good enough to be dangerous without risking loss of posession, Robben also but normal stars have to take risks to create a chance. Guardiola still had excellent WC-deciding players available, it's not like Lewandowski, Gotze and Muller are from a lower category than Suarez and Neymar. But his team did not only fail to create more than 1 chance, they also failed in keeping the ball away from Barca by keeping posession.Yep, his tactics like 3 in the back and what not worked against weaker teams, he didn't prove them to work even against bundesliga top sides, let alone teams in CL. Last year he had Robben and Ribery fit in CL and he made them look like traditional wingers by playing fullbacks in midfield and leaving them too wide where they looked really average. For all his "revolutionary" stuff, I only saw when it made them look worse, I rarely saw them playing better because of that.
The problem is that Barcelona is the best team at pressing and cutting pass angles, when fit they are unplayable. It's impossible to keep the ball against them.With his obsession with posession he takes the sting out of players. Messi and Iniesta are good enough to be dangerous without risking loss of posession, Robben also but normal stars have to take risks to create a chance. Guardiola still had excellent WC-deciding players available, it's not like Lewandowski, Gotze and Muller are from a lower category than Suarez and Neymar. But his team did not only fail to create more than 1 chance, they also failed in keeping the ball away from Barca by keeping posession.
I never said anything close to that though.Still it doesnt make sense to come to these extreme assessments like "oh pep is shit after all" or "bayern are a mediocre team".
I know that Alaba is first choice, I didn't say he isn't, I just said that Bernat played awful lot of football this year and that I read from Bayern fans here that he was very good. Alonso played all the time even when you had other options, you lot were actually complaining about that all the time and saying that Guardiola trusts him too much. He wouldn't be dropped last night even if you had some other choices.I might sound sensitive but it seems to me, that you didn´t watch bayern a whole lot this season. Alaba is one of the very first names on the team-sheet and he is not a replacement for Bernat. He or Badstuber are crucial parts to play with a back3. Götze as replacement for Ribery sounds fine, but he has been shit for month now. He is the one major disappointment this season, but thats down to his attitude (at least in my humble opinion). Alonso is out of form, but has to play all the time, because we have so few alternatives. There are a couple of other things, but overall the line up yesterday was far from ideal and not really close to our best one.
Robben was almost free of injuries for a long time and Bayern's best player. Many consider him to be the best player in the world apart from Messi and Ronaldo. It is daft to say that his absence isn't a big deal. Lewandowksi has a facial injury and it is reasonable to suppose that it has influenced his performance to an extent, this is the first game in which he played with that mask. Alaba is one of Bayern's most important players. IF Bayern played with their best players and looked in the same way, I'd understand those criticisms. But they didn't. Last season Messi was out of from by his standards and Barca struggled big time.Well, I won't because Messi is integral to that team and he hardly ever gets injured, while Robben always has his injury spells, so they should definitely learn to play without relying on him that much. It's their problem, not Barca's. That's probably the reason why they kept buying good players in Gotze, Lewandowski, Thiago, etc. even though they already had good squad, his problem is that he didn't find place for players like Gotze. Maybe he overrated him in the first place? Again, his problem.
Again, they are playing with Bernat for whole season, and Bayern fans were very happy with him this season, so I don't missing Alaba is a big problem. Or at least I didn't see anyone saying it before the game. Now you are just being ridiculous, it's not like they are just back from injury, Schweinsteiger played decent number of games over last two months, Lahm was starter in last Bayern's 8 games, wtf?
As for Lewandowski, last month or so he is playing his best football at Bayern, I am really not sure what are you on about.
You have gone from making excuses to imagining things.
Tbh some did, despite all his successes he had brought to us, the more successful he got the more ppl expected of him. Crazy but that's how it is with the very best I guess.When Ferguson didn't win the treble in the seasons following 98/99, were people criticising him like they are with Pep?
Their strongst XI, include Ribery, Robben, Alaba, Rafinha and Badstuber. The team is extremely different without these players.I never said anything close to that though.
I know that Alaba is first choice, I didn't say he isn't, I just said that Bernat played awful lot of football this year and that I read from Bayern fans here that he was very good. Alonso played all the time even when you had other options, you lot were actually complaining about that all the time and saying that Guardiola trusts him too much. He wouldn't be dropped last night even if you had some other choices.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Bayern's strongest team this season looked something like this in majority of games they had everyone fit:
Neuer
Benatia Boateng Alaba
Lahm Xabi Schweini(Goetze) Bernat
Robben Müller
Lewandowski
It's not really exactly like that positions wise, but you get the picture. Basically, you missed Robben and Alaba last night.
fair enough.Tbh some did, despite all his successes he had brought to us, the more successful he got the more ppl expected of him. Crazy but that's how it is with the very best I guess.
That isn't what he is being criticized for though. It's not the defeats its the extent of them. The treble isn't expected nor is to thrashed in the semis two years in a row.When Ferguson didn't win the treble in the seasons following 98/99, were people criticising him like they are with Pep?
No, it doesn't. Please can you post that team with those players without excluding players like Muller, Lewandowski, Lahm, Xabi, Thiago, etc..Their strongst XI, include Ribery, Robben, Alaba, Rafinha and Badstuber. The team is extremely different without these players.
That's the point, his style of football fails against the best opposition, not only in creating chances, but now also in keeping possession.The problem is that Barcelona is the best team at pressing and cutting pass angles, when fit they are unplayable. It's impossible to keep the ball against them.
Except I didn't say that. I actually said that only his absence was a big deal.It is daft to say that his absence isn't a big deal.
erm to play devils advocate id sayNo, it doesn't. Please can you post that team with those players without excluding players like Muller, Lewandowski, Lahm, Xabi, Thiago, etc..
I have at least three formations:No, it doesn't. Please can you post that team with those players without excluding players like Muller, Lewandowski, Lahm, Xabi, Thiago, etc..
But it's not a point, everyone fails against them, there is no solution other than parking the bus and luck.That's the point, his style of football fails against the best opposition, not only in creating chances, but now also in keeping possession.
I am not sure why did you exclude Schweinsteiger from all three, he is still one of Bayern's best players and clearly Bayern's best midfielder. You also excluded Muller in the first one and included Ribery in two out of three even though I think Guardiola actually prefered Goetze few times this season over him when he was fit. Goetze, who was on the bench last night. I don't understand why people count on Badstuber that much, he is good player but unfit for few years now, I am not sure they should be counting on him at all, he didn't play single game last season and he hardly played this season at all. And two seasons ago he played just around 15 games, barely playing any part in their treble season. He really isn't that important anymore, if he was at all.I have at least three formations:
------------Neuer----------
--Benatia--Boateng--Badsutber--
Rafinha--Lahm--Xabi--Alaba---
-Robben------------Ribery----
-------Lewandowski-------
-----------Neuer-----------
--Benatia--Boateng--Alaba--
---Lahm----Xabi--Thiago--
---Robben--Muller--Ribery--
--------Lewandowski-------
---------------Neuer---------
Rafinha--Boateng--Badstuber--Alaba
-------------Xabi Alonso------------
--------Lahm-----------Thiago-------
Robben------------------Muller------
------------Lewandowski-----------
Because of injuries he didn't had the opportunity to always play like that, but I'm under the impression that it's Guardiola idea.
So, you agree that they only really missed Robben last night? You explained that all those players have good replacements(it's hard to actually decide who is the first choice now and who is the replacement).erm to play devils advocate id say
.........................Neuer...........................
Lahm......Boatang..........Badstuber.....Alaba
.............Schweinstiger...Alonso.................
....Robben...........Muller...............Ribery....
.........................Lewandowski..................
stick thiago for schweini if you want him included that badly
though with such a strong squad its easy to make a case for Rafinha and stick lahm in midfield, or Bernat for Alaba, Thiago in for Schweinstiger or Alonso (or even Muller) and Gotze could of course stake a realistic claim for a number of positions - plus players like Dante and Martinez who frankly would walk into most teams.
So whilst I think its fair to say a fully fit Bayern would have included at least some of the players missing yesterday they have arguably the strongest squad in the world and are better equipped to deal with injuries than anybody else.
No matter who they played and what formation they would not have stopped Messi
Actually Bayern had 55% possession. They just didn't have the likes of Robben and Ribery to make the best out of that possession and hurt Barca. When was the last time a team had more possession than Barca at Nou Camp? And to think Bayern weren't even at full strength.That's the point, his style of football fails against the best opposition, not only in creating chances, but now also in keeping possession.
Im saying I think Pep is a far better manager than me - he knows his best XI to face a particular opposition - as for my guess as to who that would be Id say a fully fit Badstuber would probably be in there as Pep said he is the best defender he has ever worked with and I think Robben probably would be as his pace seems to add a different dimension - especially away from home but its all a guess as is everyone elses ideas on hereSo, you agree that they only really missed Robben last night? You explained that all those players have good replacements(it's hard to actually decide who is the first choice now and who is the replacement).
Point is, Barcelona's full-backs would have serious trouble trying to stop Robben and Ribery, too.No matter who they played and what formation they would not have stopped Messi
I mentioned the strongest team, not the most common, Badstuber is a member of the strongest team, but like you said he is always injured. Schweinsteiger isn't in the best midfield combination, neither is gotze, while Muller is but Guardiola will always have to make a choice.I am not sure why did you exclude Schweinsteiger from all three, he is still one of Bayern's best players and clearly Bayern's best midfielder. You also excluded Muller in the first one and included Ribery in two out of three even though I think Guardiola actually prefered Goetze few times this season over him when he was fit. Goetze, who was on the bench last night. I don't understand why people count on Badstuber that much, he is good player but unfit for few years now, I am not sure they should be counting on him at all, he didn't play single game last season and he hardly played this season at all. And two seasons ago he played just around 15 games, barely playing any part in their treble season. He really isn't that important anymore, if he was at all.
Well, I am talking about strongest as the one Guardiola would pick if he had all players fit. Gotze played quite often when they had other players fit and Schweinsteiger will always play when he is fit from what I know, same goes for Müller.I mentioned the strongest team, not the most common, Badstuber is a member of the strongest team, but like you said he is always injured. Schweinsteiger isn't in the best midfield combination, neither is gotze, while Muller is but Guardiola will always have to make a choice.
Barca plays a different less possession oriented game now. And when was the last time Ribery did something to worry a really good opponent? Off course it's allowed to be beaten in Barcelona, but if you have Muller, Lewendowski, Gotze, Schweinsteiger etc and you only create one chance, the tactics aren't working. If you aim for possession, and you manage only 55%, those tactics haven't worked either.Actually Bayern had 55% possession. They just didn't have the likes of Robben and Ribery to make the best out of that possession and hurt Barca. When was the last time a team had more possession than Barca at Nou Camp? And to think Bayern weren't even at full strength.
You make it sound like Barcelona were brilliant yesterday and are out of reach anyway. I saw also a lot of things going wrong in the Barca side yesterday, and on size and money Bayern should be able to really compete with the best. Last year it was different story but with the same ending, what could one do about the counterattacks from Real? Atletico showed what could be done about Real, Bayern didn'tBut it's not a point, everyone fails against them, there is no solution other than parking the bus and luck.
Well yeah if everyone is fit Gotze and Schweinsteiger are out.Well, I am talking about strongest as the one Guardiola would pick if he had all players fit. Gotze played quite often when they had other players fit and Schweinsteiger will always play when he is fit from what I know, same goes for Müller.
Last season, Barcelona weren't fit, this season they are. You can still beat them, but you will need a lot of luck.Barca plays a different less possession oriented game now. And when was the last time Ribery did something to worry a really good opponent? Off course it's allowed to be beaten in Barcelona, but if you have Muller, Lewendowski, Gotze, Schweinsteiger etc and you only create one chance, the tactics aren't working. If you aim for possession, and you manage only 55%, those tactics haven't worked either.
You make it sound like Barcelona were brilliant yesterday and are out of reach anyway. I saw also a lot of things going wrong in the Barca side yesterday, and on size and money Bayern should be able to really compete with the best. Last year it was different story but with the same ending, what could one do about the counterattacks from Real? Atletico showed what could be done about Real, Bayern didn't
I think he is too idealistic for his own good at time. Maybe trying to his us on the counter would have been better.Quite a bit of nonsense being spouted here but does anyone disagree that he's too idealistic for his own good? A top manager has an alternative plan, it's a must especially when your side is weakened. He needs to learn that. Hasn't learnt the lesson after the thrashing by Real last year which is a shame.
No one said the tactics worked. Or else they wouldn't have lost.Barca plays a different less possession oriented game now. And when was the last time Ribery did something to worry a really good opponent? Off course it's allowed to be beaten in Barcelona, but if you have Muller, Lewendowski, Gotze, Schweinsteiger etc and you only create one chance, the tactics aren't working. If you aim for possession, and you manage only 55%, those tactics haven't worked either.
Actually quite a few people thought it worked pretty much until near the end and had it not been for that superhumanNo one said the tactics worked. Or else they wouldn't have lost.
Its a moot point to discuss exact line-ups. Its fairly difficult to say what Pep would do if everyone is fit. My point remains the same: various important player are either injured or not in form. Not one or two but 6-8 over an extended period of the season.I never said anything close to that though.
I know that Alaba is first choice, I didn't say he isn't, I just said that Bernat played awful lot of football this year and that I read from Bayern fans here that he was very good. Alonso played all the time even when you had other options, you lot were actually complaining about that all the time and saying that Guardiola trusts him too much. He wouldn't be dropped last night even if you had some other choices.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Bayern's strongest team this season looked something like this in majority of games they had everyone fit:
Neuer
Benatia Boateng Alaba
Lahm Xabi Schweini(Goetze) Bernat
Robben Müller
Lewandowski
It's not really exactly like that positions wise, but you get the picture. Basically, you missed Robben and Alaba last night.
No, they're not. At least not Schweinsteiger. There were many games this season when Guardiola left someone else important on the bench in favour of Schweinsteiger, or even Goetze.Well yeah if everyone is fit Gotze and Schweinsteiger are out.
Yeah, I just said that to JPRouve, Guardiola likes to rotate a lot and we never know who would he play.Its a moot point to discuss exact line-ups. Its fairly difficult to say what Pep would do if everyone is fit. My point remains the same: various important player are either injured or not in form. Not one or two but 6-8 over an extended period of the season.
I didn't say that you lose because of that, I just said that injuries aren't the only reason and excuse.In the end we didnt lose due to tactics (that argument would have been valid, if Barca would have scored during the opening minutes of the match) or motivation, but simply because Barca had player, who performed on a higher level. In the end Messi-Suarez-Neymar were simply too good. I am not happy about that, but there is no reason for any knee-jerk reaction. The only lesson of this game is, that bayern has to address the issue of injury prone players.
I agree with that, he will rotate a lot and will always surprise us.Yeah, I just said that to JPRouve, Guardiola likes to rotate a lot and we never know who would he play.
