Agree with this. If Barca were without Messi and Neymar tonight and Bayern had Robben and Ribery then I think it could have been a very different result.
Isn't it possible that the stars aligned for Guardiola at Barca, so to speak? There's no doubt he deserves credit for promoting and developing youth players into key players (Busquets, Pedro, Pique); re-focusing the squad by getting rid of some of the somewhat cancerous elements of the team (Ronaldinho, Deco and eventually Eto'o) and by adding a key tactical element to their game (intense pressing). Undoubtedly he played his part, but I don't think it's unfair to ask just how important that part was.
I don't think you're off base at all. Ultimately, it comes down to the obsession with crediting or blaming that one single factor. I suppose it makes us feel in control to be able to point out to the source and answer for success or failure. That Barcelona side benefited from like you said plenty of things. Brilliant players, a player from another planet, the influence of footballing visionaries in Cruyf, Van Gaal and Aragones and Guadiola. It is true like you say that it is legitimate to ask how much but it is impossible to know for sure. I believe that any great success or failure is usually due to many factors coming together at the same time which is why is it extremely difficult to replicate. Having said that, I think we can all safely agree that he is one of the best tacticians in the modern game. I don't mean here defensive minded tactics but tactics in the sense of movement, positioning and possession. The way his teams move around the pitch with such intelligence and clarity always offering passing options and making off the ball movement is the clear work of a master teacher. It does not guarantee success by itself of course but it definitely played a significant part in that extraordinary side between 2009 and 2011.
On the bolded part, I think this was a massive change which can't be underestimated. In Ronaldinho's case, the guy had been the undisputed player in the world just a couple of seasons before, and was still in what would generally be a players prime years. To go and get rid of him when there could've been an argument that he'd return to his best was a hell of a bold move, on top of getting rid of Deco, and as you say, eventually Eto'o.
Stars aligning to win 14 of 19 titles during 4 seasons, playing against madrid like 14 times and losing 2, smashing Mourinho's madrid with a 5-0, winning two CL, winning all 6 major titles in a year, etc all this during the course of 4 seasons after taking a completely sunk team and coming from promoting the b team to second division. Stars can align but I have to give him some merit when it happens for so long.
He was tired if I recall.
Burnt out and didn't like the club politics at the time.
Rummenigge would do everything for him and the other board members are liking/loving him too.
It has worked for Inter, United and Pool vs Barca. Arsenal always try to go toe-to-toe with Barca and always get caught like deer in headlights. This Barca front 3 deserves a bus parking.
As if that is ever going to happen...Don't you support Barca?
I do, but I'm not going to say we're in the final yet. An early Bayern goal next week in Munich and anything is possible.
It's not impossible. Madrid beat Barca 3-1 so 3-0 can happen.
It's also worked for Atletico against Barca last season. Parking the bus when you have to is nothing to be ashamed of.
in this form Barca are as good as through. I'd be surprised if Barca does a Porto and folds.
Let's just hope Jordi Alba doesn't head the ball into his own net.
So you don't aspire to have a team that can go the Nou Camp and outplay Barcelona?
Yep agree plus his team was interrupted by injuries big time of their best players. Take out Messi and Suraez out the Barca team and they'd drop their level.
The silence and/or back-tracking from posters nailing him to the wall right now would be interesting should Bayern turn it around.
That's a ridiculous thing to say. Imagine Barca without Messi and Bayern with Robben in top form. Besides, Bayern were without Alaba as well, Schweini wasn't in form, Lewandowski wasn't in top form too, etc. Lahm returned from injury weeks ago...
Did bayern outplay barca when they beat them 7-1 on agg a few years ago?
Of course Robben is a player who can make the difference and often does, but in his absence this was another opportunity to judge the merit of Pep's tactics and style of play, because without Robben their is still an excellent group of players. But his tactics only seem to work when the opposition isn't a match anyway, and then they show that very convincingly by humiliating them. But against equal or only slightly weaker sides, they're impotent. Wolfsburg, Dortmund, Real, Barca, of course you can always lose against a brilliant Messi, but Messi wasn't particularly brilliant but just his normal dangerous self, and it's the absence of chances and shots on goal against good sides that should be worrying. The question is whether his tactics add strength to this talentend squad or takes strenght away from it, so far Pep's Bayern has underachieved rather than overachieved. And allthough more fitting to the Barca players, one can also question whether his tactics and style made Barca underachieve in the past.
United didn't park the bus in the sense Chelsea do. We still had around 40 % possession and yes we played more defensively than usual in that one tie and it worked out.
Its not only about Robben and Ribery. Alaba+Badstuber are also out. Martinez is just back and couldn´t contribute. Thiago, Schweinsteiger and Benatia are not at 100% (injuries). Lewandowski with a broken face. We are at the point where even out back-up (Rode) is getting injured. Besides missing quality, thats incredible disruptive for a team. If Barca would have to deal with a similar crisis, nobody would even talk about them reaching the final, because they´d have to field a couple of u23 players.
No worries, I hear Moyes will set his tactics up around Stefano, who will surely tip the scale in Sociedad's favour.
Well, I won't because Messi is integral to that team and he hardly ever gets injured, while Robben always has his injury spells, so they should definitely learn to play without relying on him that much. It's their problem, not Barca's. That's probably the reason why they kept buying good players in Gotze, Lewandowski, Thiago, etc. even though they already had good squad, his problem is that he didn't find place for players like Gotze. Maybe he overrated him in the first place? Again, his problem.
Again, they are playing with Bernat for whole season, and Bayern fans were very happy with him this season, so I don't missing Alaba is a big problem. Or at least I didn't see anyone saying it before the game. Now you are just being ridiculous, it's not like they are just back from injury, Schweinsteiger played decent number of games over last two months, Lahm was starter in last Bayern's 8 games, wtf?
Yep, his tactics like 3 in the back and what not worked against weaker teams, he didn't prove them to work even against bundesliga top sides, let alone teams in CL. Last year he had Robben and Ribery fit in CL and he made them look like traditional wingers by playing fullbacks in midfield and leaving them too wide where they looked really average. For all his "revolutionary" stuff, I only saw when it made them look worse, I rarely saw them playing better because of that.
Are you really still relying on Badstuber? He is injured for few years now, and this season he made comeback which was again disrupted by injuries, I am really not sure how people can still see him as big miss. Schweinsteiger is also in similar condition, I explained in the other post, I know he is excellent player but he played decent number of games over last month or two so I am really not sure he can be in much better state than this, because that's what you get from him lately. He is actually "very fit" lately for his standards. Thiago was involved in 9 Bayern games in a row. He isn't in his best condition ever, but he is in good form. Benatia played good game last night, he was probably better than Boateng.
I was actually impressed with Bayern. Barca were at full strength and in good form. Bayern missing several key players and yet came out with a strategy of playing football at Nou Camp and not just park the bus. It seemed audacious but they held on until the 75th minute and they had large periods of possession themselves. The difference in the end was the presence of Messi/Suarez and the absence of Ribery/Robben.
